Losing faith in "faith alone"

[HypnoToad]

Traditionally theology resulted in 6 million dead Jews. It's that simple in my mind.

Sure, cuz judging a philosophy by those who abuse it is totally valid.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sure, cuz judging a philosophy by those who abuse it is totally valid.

It's not just it's abuse, it's often incoherent in the modern world, as witnessed by the vast number of educated people who are no longer Christians, or who are minimally afilliated. The CHurch is failing to speak the language of ordinary human beings, and instead insisting that modern man come of age must relate to early bronze age stories, or be damned. It seems a strange hill to die on.

Today we read the story of Genesis in church and it has demonstrably fanciful tales in it, such as the notion that snakes eat dirt. It is obviously a myth, even putting aside the question of evolution.

 

[amariselle]

It's not just it's abuse, it's often incoherent in the modern world, as witnessed by the vast number of educated people who are no longer Christians, or who are minimally afilliated. The CHurch is failing to speak the language of ordinary human beings, and instead insisting that modern man come of age must relate to early bronze age stories, or be damned. It seems a strange hill to die on.

Today we read the story of Genesis in church and it has demonstrably fanciful tales in it, such as the notion that snakes eat dirt. It is obviously a myth, even putting aside the question of evolution.

Why should one in our superior postmodern world believe that anything in the Bible is to be understood literally in that case? If what we read in Genesis is nothing more than “demonstrably fanciful tales” and “myths”, then why should we believe the Gospel or anything else in the NT? After all, Jesus said that Scripture (the OT) pointed to Him, but if Genesis is just made up of “fanciful tales” and “myths”, then why would anyone believe the Gospel isn’t just one more such myth?

In my honest opinion, the view you have of Scripture is incredibly dangerous.

 

[HypnoToad]

It's not just it's abuse, it's often incoherent in the modern world, as witnessed by the vast number of educated people who are no longer Christians,

So, people not being Christians = Christian teaching must be wrong. How many people becoming Christian would it take before Christian teaching becomes true?

The CHurch is failing to speak the language of ordinary human beings, and instead insisting that modern man come of age must relate to early bronze age stories, or be damned. It seems a strange hill to die on.

But the New Testament is fine, right? That was long after the bronze age. But then, much of the New Testament specifically cites the Old Testament as validation. Gosh, I guess we need to just throw out the whole Bible.

Today we read the story of Genesis in church and it has demonstrably fanciful tales in it, such as the notion that snakes eat dirt. It is obviously a myth, even putting aside the question of evolution.

Oh, now it makes sense. We should totally rely on the interpretation of people who can't even grasp a simple figure of speech.

 

[FireDragon76]

So, people not being Christians = Christian teaching must be wrong. How many people becoming Christian would it take before Christian teaching becomes true?



But the New Testament is fine, right? That was long after the bronze age. But then, much of the New Testament specifically cites the Old Testament as validation. Gosh, I guess we need to just throw out the whole Bible.


Oh, now it makes sense. We should totally rely on the interpretation of people who can't even grasp a simple figure of speech.

I'm a Christian TBH because my parents taught me my first song "Jesus loves me". It is the faith I was baptized into. Deep down, I cannot escape Jesus. He just won't let me go. And the people at my church are loving folks and are nice to be around. But I make no bones with my pastor, I think alot of traditional Christianity is rot. He agrees with me, sometimes. But our congregation isn't ready to make that leap. If I were not poor and broke I'd go to St. John's downtown, which has a more liberal atmosphere.

Nadia Bolz Weber is more my kind of a Lutheran. She keeps everything real and is brutally honest. She refuses to use religion to live a life of bad faith.

 

[HypnoToad]

I'm a Christian TBH because my parents taught me my first song "Jesus loves me". It is the faith I was baptized into. Deep down, I cannot escape Jesus. He just won't let me go. And the people at my church are loving folks and are nice to be around. But I make no bones with my pastor, I think alot of traditional Christianity is rot. He agrees with me, sometimes. But our congregation isn't ready to make that leap. If I were not poor and broke I'd go to St. John's downtown, which has a more liberal atmosphere.

Nadia Bolz Weber is more my kind of a Lutheran. She keeps everything real and is brutally honest. She refuses to use religion to live a life of bad faith.

... which doesn't really address anything I said. But thanks for sharing.

 

[discipler7]

God does not make junk. Every human being is created in the image of God.

JOHN.8: = 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

1JOHN.3: = 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

MATTHEW.16: = 23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

 

[112358]

JOHN.8: = 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

1JOHN.3: = 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

MATTHEW.16: = 23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Inconvenient, uncomfortable, and oft rejected truths. But truths nonetheless.

 

[FireDragon76]

Inconvenient, uncomfortable, and oft rejected truths. But truths nonetheless.

Decontextualized, sort of like some particular rabbi's who debated with Jesus many centuries ago.

 

[HypnoToad]

Decontextualized, sort of like some particular rabbi's who debated with Jesus many centuries ago.

It's easy to claim "that's out of context."

But it doesn't really mean anything unless you actually explain how the context shows their view is wrong.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's easy to claim "that's out of context."

But it doesn't really mean anything unless you actually explain how the context shows their view is wrong.

Jesus was talking to hypocritical Jews, not 20th century skeptics.

 

[HypnoToad]

Jesus was talking to hypocritical Jews, not 20th century skeptics.

Speaking to one group doesn't equate to not being applicable to another group.

 

[FireDragon76]

Speaking to one group doesn't equate to not being applicable to another group.

Of course but not being aware of the context and not relativizing it to a different era make this method problematic.

 

[HypnoToad]

Of course but not being aware of the context and not relativizing it to a different era make this method problematic.

You still don't explain how the context shows their view is wrong.

 

[W2L]

It's easy to claim "that's out of context."

But it doesn't really mean anything unless you actually explain how the context shows their view is wrong.

I agree.

 

[zoidar]

I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".

I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.

Here's a second, even more clear translation:

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

Saved by faith and works?

or

Saved by faith that produces works?

In my opinion Faith = believe in Christ + obey Christ

When you obey Christ there are works. So maybe the right way to put it is that we are saved by faith and works. But at the same time we aren't prefect in works, so it may be better to say that we are saved by faith and obedience. Because when we fail in works, we turn to God for forgiveness, that is obedience.

It's faith through the Holy Spirit that enables to have works. Sure you can have some good works without the Holy Spirit, but to live in faithful works is of course not possible.

 

[W2L]

One thing is sure, we wont be boasting in our works when we stand before God.

 

[fhansen]

I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".

I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.

Here's a second, even more clear translation:

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

The problem is that we need to have a more fleshed-out understanding of what faith is, why it's important, how it's meant to work in our lives. In some theological circles faith takes on a kind of singular mechanical role: believe in what Jesus did for you, believe you're saved by it, and then you're saved, and maybe saved forever with no possibility of loss of salvation regardless of what you do from there on out, depending on interpretation.

In truth faith is a gift, of grace, a seed that's intended to produce something. It works in and with our wills but still won't override and force them into obedience. God didn't do that with Adam, and He's never intended to do it with any of us. Otherwise He may as all have just stocked heaven with the predetermined elect to begin with and stocked hell with the rest, avoiding all the evil and pain and suffering in this world. But instead this world is meant to have a purpose, of convincing us of what Adam missed, of educating our wills so to speak, so that we may learn in a process involving time of our need for God, with the help of revelation and grace, so that humanity may come to turn back to the Father we never new at birth but whose image is still impressed inside, ever calling us back to Himself. The Good News makes known this God as the time became ripe in world history, and becomes ripe in our own personal histories, so that we have an object to believe in, the person of Jesus Christ whose life, teachings, and deeds make known/reveal the Father, the true God.

So faith concerns the knowledge of God, calling us into relationship with Him, 'apart from whom we can do nothing' (John 15:5). Man was made for this communion. And this is the essence of the New Covenant: that all, from the least to the greatest will directly know God without needing their neighbor to tell them about Him (Jer 31:34), so that He may then do a work in us, of justification, and therefore salvation, by placing His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jer 31:33). God, not man, is the only rightful author of man's righteousness even as Adam, by denying God's authority through his act of disobedience, thought he could do just fine without God. And the first part of this righteousness or justice is the indwelling of God in man, this communion. Unless that communion, by faith, is established and maintained, man exists in an unjust state; he loses his righteousness; man, IOW cannot save himself. And this is why this faith is critical because we bear no fruit without it.
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me." John 15:1-4

We must continue to walk with the Lord; willful, persistent sin breaks our communion and causes death again, just as it did with Adam originally. But with God we can do everything including the works prepared for us by Him mentioned in Eph 2:10. The Parable of the Talents also focuses on performance, what we do with the gifts (grace) given, how we "invest" our talents IOW, and what happens when we don't.

Anyway, what this communion produces in us is God's own nature; it results in the virtue of love taking greater and greater root in us. And this love is the reason for and the means by which the good works referred to in Matt 25:31-46 are done by the sheep for "the least of these", works upon which we'll be judged. Love is the true definition of justice for man, which is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are. Love is the basis of the "righteousness of God" and therefore of the Law, which love fulfills (Rom 13:10). Love is the "pen" God uses to write His Law on our hearts (Jer 31). Love is what faith is meant to lead to but doesn't necessarily unless we continue to remain in- and cooperate with and follow God.

"Without love faith may indeed exist but avails nothing." St Augustine
"Now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13

God doesn't want us to be nothing; He created us to be something. So John of the Cross culd rightfully say:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

 

[zoidar]

One thing is sure, we wont be boasting in our works when we stand before God.

No, because all our works we have done without expecting anything in return. We do it because of love to God and our neighbour.

 

[FireDragon76]

BTW, my opinion is a minority among the ELCA, and should not be seen as representative of the denomination as a whole, necessarily. Most are very mushy/squishy and far less strident. Mainline Lutherans typically shun controversy and are far more irenic than I am. The poisoned fruit of pietism, but that's part of the Lutheran ethos in the US. I just don't agree with it. Spiritual/ethical matters are too weighty to be brushed off with a shrug.

 

[redleghunter]

No, none of St. Paul’s letters teaches Luther’s doctrines.

Considering Luther was born hundreds of years after John Chyrsostom, I will have to conclude Luther picked up on his doctrine of justified by faith alone.

And St John Chrysostom most certainly did not, no matter how often you selectively quote him while ignoring clear statements from him that contradict your view.

Selectively quoting? I provided in context and multiple quoted text.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said Chrysostom has the same conclusions Luther did looking at the same epistles.

Here's more evidence:

Here is another faith alone from Chrysostom's homily on Colossians:

For it is most of all apparent among the Gentiles, as he also says elsewhere, And that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy.Romans 15:9 For the great glory of this mystery is apparent among others also, but much more among these.

For, on a sudden, to have brought menmore senseless than stones to the dignity of Angels, simply through bare words, and faith alone, without any laboriousness, is indeed glory and richesof mystery: just as if one were to take a dog, quite consumed with hunger and the mange, foul, and loathsome to see, and not so much as able to move, but lying cast out, and make him all at once into a man, and to display him upon the royal throne.

They were wont to worship stones and the earth; but they learned that themselves are better both than the heaven and the sun, and that the whole world serves them; they were captives and prisoners of the devil: on a sudden they are placed above his head, and lay commands on him and scourge him: from being captives and slaves to demons, they have become the body of The Master of the Angels and the Archangels; from not knowing even what God is, they have become all at once sharers even in God's throne.

Chyrsostom Homily 5 on Colossians
Colossians 1:26-28​