OLD COVENANT SHADOWS POINTING TO THE NEW
- Thread starter LoveGodsWord
- Start date
Here I have no idea what you are talking about. I posted Rom 7:6 in post 146 with explanation mentioning v 7 Thou shalt not covet proving Paul was talking about the law (10 Cs). I backed this up by quoting verses starting 8 thru v 11. All talking about the law.
Your response was " But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law.
That fully supports my idea. In v 4 Paul says -
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ...
In verses 1-3 Paul talks about bondage to and being released from the law by allegory.
You claim by verse 5 that we are bound to sin making it completely out of context with the chapter.
In v 6 the subject is clearly the law. But you say the last half of the verse states bondage to sin. Paul does not say delivered from sin or bondage to sin.
In post 148 I posted this -
νυνὶ δὲ κατηργήθημεν ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου Says we have been released from the law.
ἀποθανόντες ἐν ᾧ κατειχόμεθα says is what we were bound to. You posted
The bolded is exactly what I posted. If you did not copy the Greek from my post (the easy way) it appears you got your Greek from the same source. I did not quote the words of the Greek as you did. I expressed the Greek in my own words. In meaning they differ in nothing from your quote of the English words from that source. Your claim with the red is we were bound to sin. That changes the subject matter mid sentence. That is impossible by the rules of English. There is a coma after the word law instead of a semi colon or full colon which could change things.
You can not establish this from the text, context, arguing about Greek words or any definitions.
These verses say the law is the problem causing death. To charge and mandate death is a function of the law, not sin. Without the law there is no legal means to condemnation or punish. Now go ahead and talk about the flood or Sodom. I am prepared.
Yes I know about bondage to sin. This is not what Paul is talking about in Romans chapters 6-8.
You miss or gloss right over the word "were" twice. We are in Christ Jesus as Rom 8:1 says. It also says very plainly we are not after the flesh as 7:5 says we "were."
Yes sin binds. The Israeli however bound themselves to the law with their confession "we will do..." Paul is speaking specifically to Israeli with the word "we" in 7:6. If the Jews are delivered from the law, why would gentile now be bound to the law? Paul says the law is over in Gal 3:19. Luke 16:16 says the law was until John. Paul says to throw out the law in Gal 4:30. The law does not apply to the Christian in I Tim 1:9.
It is not God's law we are delivered from. It is the law God gave Israel at Sinai. Rom 7:7 is proof.
They all say the same thing so I deleted them.
The law imposes that penalty. If one is law compliant there is no sin. Thus it is the law that binds one to sin and punishment for violation. Sin does not condemn. The law condemns.
No one can arrive at this conclusion from the text. You are promoting SDA doctrine over the Scripture. Your first sentence is what you think the law actually does. Unfortunately Jesus does not agree with you. I will say that I am not saved so I am permitted to sin. Neither am I bound to the law.
According to even all those versions you quoted I did show and prove my point as truth.
OK, like I said it appears you got your c&p from the same source if you indeed did not copy my second group of Greek words. They are exactly the same except you bold your rendition. I lack no Scripture for my position. I accept what it plainly says and supports other passages fully. Your position is in violation to those verses as well. For instance you claim the law is for the Christian. That means according to I Tim 1:9 you are claiming Christians are wicked. Righteousness does not come by the law as you insist. Fir if one does not keep the 4th commandment they are not righteous. This is a declaration by you that you are wicked backed by the OT that Paul agrees with in Rom 3:23.
I did and you will not believe. You seem to think I am here to convert you. Big mistake. I am here to defend the truth of the New Covenant which provides salvation through Jesus. The law does not provide salvation.
I did not ignore that as this post and posts and 146 and 148 prove.
I have not ignored any Scripture you provided or referenced.
This causes a personal problem for you. Rom 8 shows people who walk after the flesh and carnal commandments have a problem. Those who are in Jesus Christ and walk by the Spirit do not have these problems.
Please note it does not say those who continue in the law. Please not it also says Jesus will make you free indeed. It does not say the law will make you free indeed. You are your own worst enemy.
I am so very sorry for you. I will not take your personal problems on myself. I used to be mixed up but not quite as extensive as you. Thank my merciful Father, His only begotten Son and the ministry of the Holy Spirit for final and complete deliverance.
sorry but I had to chop this three times to post. I do not like long posts.
bugkiller
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
It seems so
Let's recap so that the discussion is clear. Your claim is that the meaning of ROMANS 7:6 (well half of it) is that God's LAW is ABOLISHED and is talking about being in BONDAGE to the LAW. Your words here......
Most of your post here is only just a repeat of what you have aleady stated and has already been responded to. You seem to have ignored much of my previous posts to you. I will not be dwelling on this too much however as it is only repitition of what has already been posted and you have not replied to most of my posts and the scriptures in them that disagree with your interpretation of the half scripture in Romans 7:6.
You were shown through the scriptures in the previous posts in relation to Romans 7:6; summed up in post # 157 linked that Paul was NOT talking about being in bondage to the Law as shown in Romans 7:5, 8, 11, 13-15, 17-23. but being in bondage to SIN.
God's LAW only gives a knowledge of what sin is. Further scripture support was provided from the previous chapter in Romans 6:15-23 which is the same topic of discussion leading into Romans 7 showing Pauls agreement with Jesus that it is SIN that we are in BONDAGE to and salvation is from SIN not in sin John 8:31-36
Being in bondage to sin and being a servant to sin was the topic of discussion in ROMANS 6 leading into ROMANS 7 shown in an earlier post..
ROMANS 6:15-23 [15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not UNDER THE LAW, but under grace? God forbid. [16] KNOW YE NOT, THAT TO WHOM YOU YEILD YOUSELVES SEVANTS TO OBEY; WHETHER OF SIN UNTO DEATH, OR OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS? [17] But God be thanked, that YOU WERE THE SERVANTS OF SIN (Bondage), but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. [18] BEING THEN MADE FREE FROM SIN, YOU BECAME THE SERVANTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. [19] I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. [20] FOR WHEN YOU WERE THE SERVANTS OF SIN, YOU WERE FREE FROM RIGHTEOUSNESS. [21], What fruit had you then in those things of which you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. [22], BUT NOW BEING MADE FREE FROM SIN, and become servants to God, you have YOUR FRUIT UNTO HOLINESS ,AND EVERLASTING LIFE. [23], For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This is not new as it is Pauls agreement with Jesus which is those who commit sin are a servant to sin and are in bondage to sin as shown in the WORD of Jesus in John 8:31-34. (previously posted).
The following scriptures were also posted to you showing that God's LAW only gives us a KNOWLEDGE of what sin was v7, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16, 22, 25; Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4; James 2:8-12.
Now you are trying to make a strawman argument here to say things I have never said by omission. Have I ever said that Romans 7 does not include the topic of the 10 Commandments when I have already quoted these scriptures that say it does in my previous posts to you?
It is your interpretation of Romans 7:6 that is shown to be in error as you leave out the CONTEXT from the second half of the scripture you omit to hold on to your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 that God's law is bondage and we are released from it.
ROMANS 7:6 [6] But now we are delivered from the law, by dying to that which bound us; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
You take the first part of this scrioture But now we are delivered from the law and say that it means that God's LAW is Bondage and that it is now abolished and ignore the within scripture and chapter CONTEXT which says the opposite.
The within scripture CONTEXT you leave out of your interpretation is "by dying to that which has bound us (SIN)".
Q. How are we delivered from the law in Romans 7:6?
A. "by dying to that which has bound us (SIN)".
The scripture says that we are delivered from the law by dying to SIN that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
ROMANS 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
This is talking about the law of sin and death which is sinful human nature previously discussed within the chapter (7:5, 8, 11, 13-15, 17-23).
Then moves on into ROMANS 8
v1, There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh <G4561 sinful human nature>, but after the Spirit. v2, For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death <sinful human nature; the wages of sin is death Romans 6:23).
It is the law of SIN and death that we are freed from not God's LAW as it only gives us a KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is Romans 7 v7, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16, 22, 25. 3:20
This is why in the last post the discussion was around the scriptures in relation to BONDAGE and being a SERVANT OF SIN v7, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16, 22, 25 Romans 6:15-23; John 8:31-36.
This is both the within SCRIPTURE and CHAPTER CONTEXT you have left out of your interpretation of the scriptures.
Sorry but the rest of your post here is only repetition of what you have already posted. You have been provided with scripture that disagrees with your teachings already so this is only repetition. You have chosen to ignore those posts and have not replied to them accept to simply repeat what you have already said the first time round.
Some simple questions however that I think that would help the discussion and worth consideration were asked at the end of my last post to you that you also ignored. If you have some time I think if you honestly answer these questions (with scripture alone) it would help the conversation and understanding of the scriptures we are talking about here. As the answers to these questions are presented in Romans 6; Romans 7 and Romans 8.
................
A few simple questions may help the conversation...
Q. What causes sin the LAW or us?
Q. What causes death the LAW or SIN?
Please consider answering these questions or pray about them
................
Ok, hope this helps,
Nice talking to you catchya latter
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Ok had some time to for the rest of your post...
The above has already been answered earlier in a previous post. Look at the GREEK translation use your interlinear or the original GREEK that we have both quoted here there is no commas; semicolans and fullstops in the GREEK now is there?
νυνί δε κατηργήθημεν από του νόμου αποθανόντες εν ω κατειχόμεθα ώστε δουλεύειν ημάς εν καινότητι πνεύματος και ου παλαιότητι γράμματος
So your argument is not a valid one as the within scripture context and chapter context determine the meaning of the scripture discussed. However, even with the commas and semi colan added it does not change the scripture context or effect anything already shared with you. Why do you think adding a comma or semi colan changes anything as the context has already been established in the previous verse v5. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit to death.
ότε γαρ ήμεν εν τη σαρκί τα παθήματα των αμαρτιών τα διά του νόμου ενηργείτο εν τοις μέλεσιν ημών εις το καρποφορήσαι τω θανάτω
Of course you can how does the Chapter 7 finished?
v25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
ἐυχαριστῶ τῷ Θεῷ διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν. ) Ἄρα οὖν αὐτὸς ἐγὼ τῷ μὲν νοῒ δουλεύω νόμῳ Θεοῦ, τῇ δὲ σαρκὶ, νόμῳ ἁμαρτίας.
leads into...
ROMANS 8:1 [1], There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh <G5461>, but after the Spirit.
Οὐδὲν ἄρα νῦν κατάκριμα τοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, μὴ κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦσιν, ἀλλὰ κατὰ πνεῦμα
Q. Was it the law that causes death or was it sin?
ROMANS 7:12-13 [12], Why the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13], Was then that which is good made death to me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
ROMANS 6:23 [23], THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
A. SIN causes death not God's LAW. God's LAW gives us a KNOWLEDGE of what sin is.
God's WORD disagrees with you.
You do know this is the book of ROMANS right to the gentile believers? As shown in the above scritures and in the previous posts it is be dying to that which has bound us which is SIN that we are delivered from the CONDEMNATION of the law (Romans 8:1).
Here you have your laws mixed up. You mix up the Shadow laws of the OLD Covenant from the MOSIAC BOOK of the law with those of God's ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments)
SCRIPTURE SUPPORT GOD'S ETERNAL LAW
SCRIPTURE SUPPORT MOSIASC SHADOW LAWS
God's Word disagrees with you.
You are only bound by God's LAW if you are guilty of breaking it (Romans 6:17-23; Romans 7:5-6; James 2:8-12; 1 John 3:3-10; Romans 3:19-20)
Not at all I have provided the CONTEXT you left out of the scripture you quoted as well as the within Chapter CONTEXT and supporting CONTEXT from ROMANS 6 and ROMANS 8. All of which disagree with your interpretation.
Not at all. Let's look at the scripture...
1 TIMOTHY 1:9 [9], Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for murderers
The scripture says that God's LAW is NOT made for a RIGHTEOUS man that is to say those that are NOT breaking it. This is what it means to be not "UNDER THE LAW" Romans 3:19-20. You are only UNDER THE LAW if you break it (SIN). God's LAW only gives us a KNOWLEDGE of what sin is and righteousness (Romans 3:20; 7:7; James 3:8-12; 1 John 3:4)
I never said righteousness comes by the law. Righteousness only comes by FAITH. Now your making things up. Please provide a link where I have ever said righteousness comes by the law anywhere in this forum. If not you should apologise.
Indeed just like any of the other commandments if broken we stand guilty before God in SIN (James 2:8-12; Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20)
I do not think any such thing. As shown through this thread it seems you do not know what the OLD Covenant is how can you know what the NEW Covenant is when God's WORD disagrees with your teaching. Your core message here is that God's LAW is abolished. Yet it is God's WORD that warns all on who are from God and who are not from God.
1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 JOHN 3:3-10 [3],
[3], And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
[4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
[5], And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[6], Whoever stays in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.
[7], Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
[8], He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[9], Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
[10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.
.................
WHO ARE GOD'S PEOPLE?
Revelation 12
17, And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ
Revelation 14
12, Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
.................
WHO ARE THOSE THAT RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE?
Revelation 22
14, Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
.................
WHAT IS GRACE FOR?
ROMANS 1:5, By whom we have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH among all nations, for his name.
Romans 6:1-2, [1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. [2], How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
.................
DOES FAITH ABOLISH GOD'S LAW?
ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then ABOLISH THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.
.................
WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THOSE WHO CONTINUE IN SIN ONCE THEY RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH?
HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Seems God's WORD disagrees with you again..
No one ever said God's Law provides salvation only you did. Salvation is by Faith in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8)
Partly right where does it say anything in Romans 8 that God's LAW is a carnal commandment? Romans 8 only talks about the carnal MIND which is the sinful human nature same GREEK word used for flesh <G4651 sinful human nature>. Your reading things into scripture again that is not there.
Indeed something we can agree on
. However, those who continue in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN do not receive God's SPIRIT neither do they know God (Acts 5:32; 2:38; 3:19; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-10; Hebrews 10:26-27)Who ever said the law makes us free? You keep saying things I have never said or believe.
Q. What is Jesus to make us free from?
JOHN 8:31-36 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free? [34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin. [35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever. [36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
A. SIN
Jesus disagrees with your teaching.
................
Let's not forget the questions from the last post that may help the conversation...
Q. What causes sin the LAW or us?
Q. What causes death the LAW or SIN?
Please consider answering these questions or pray about them
................
Hope this helps...
Last edited:
Upvote
0
We Christians are redeemed from sin and delivered from and the law. Our body isn't either.It seems so
Let's recap so that the discussion is clear. Your claim is that the meaning of ROMANS 7:6 (well half of it) is that God's LAW is ABOLISHED and is talking about being in BONDAGE to the LAW. Your words here......
Most of your post here is only just a repeat of what you have aleady stated and has already been responded to. You seem to have ignored much of my previous posts to you. I will not be dwelling on this too much however as it is only repitition of what has already been posted and you have not replied to most of my posts and the scriptures in them that disagree with your interpretation of the half scripture in Romans 7:6.
You were shown through the scriptures in the previous posts in relation to Romans 7:6; summed up in post # 157 linked that Paul was NOT talking about being in bondage to the Law as shown in Romans 7:5, 8, 11, 13-15, 17-23. but being in bondage to SIN.
God's LAW only gives a knowledge of what sin is. Further scripture support was provided from the previous chapter in Romans 6:15-23 which is the same topic of discussion leading into Romans 7 showing Pauls agreement with Jesus that it is SIN that we are in BONDAGE to and salvation is from SIN not in sin John 8:31-36
Being in bondage to sin and being a servant to sin was the topic of discussion in ROMANS 6 leading into ROMANS 7 shown in an earlier post..
ROMANS 6:15-23 [15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not UNDER THE LAW, but under grace? God forbid. [16] KNOW YE NOT, THAT TO WHOM YOU YEILD YOUSELVES SEVANTS TO OBEY; WHETHER OF SIN UNTO DEATH, OR OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS? [17] But God be thanked, that YOU WERE THE SERVANTS OF SIN (Bondage), but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. [18] BEING THEN MADE FREE FROM SIN, YOU BECAME THE SERVANTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. [19] I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. [20] FOR WHEN YOU WERE THE SERVANTS OF SIN, YOU WERE FREE FROM RIGHTEOUSNESS. [21], What fruit had you then in those things of which you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. [22], BUT NOW BEING MADE FREE FROM SIN, and become servants to God, you have YOUR FRUIT UNTO HOLINESS ,AND EVERLASTING LIFE. [23], For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This is not new as it is Pauls agreement with Jesus which is those who commit sin are a servant to sin and are in bondage to sin as shown in the WORD of Jesus in John 8:31-34. (previously posted).
The following scriptures were also posted to you showing that God's LAW only gives us a KNOWLEDGE of what sin was v7, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16, 22, 25; Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4; James 2:8-12.
Now you are trying to make a strawman argument here to say things I have never said by omission. Have I ever said that Romans 7 does not include the topic of the 10 Commandments when I have already quoted these scriptures that say it does in my previous posts to you?
It is your interpretation of Romans 7:6 that is shown to be in error as you leave out the CONTEXT from the second half of the scripture you omit to hold on to your interpretation of ROMANS 7:6 that God's law is bondage and we are released from it.
ROMANS 7:6 [6] But now we are delivered from the law, by dying to that which bound us; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
You take the first part of this scrioture But now we are delivered from the law and say that it means that God's LAW is Bondage and that it is now abolished and ignore the within scripture and chapter CONTEXT which says the opposite.
The within scripture CONTEXT you leave out of your interpretation is "by dying to that which has bound us (SIN)".
Q. How are we delivered from the law in Romans 7:6?
A. "by dying to that which has bound us (SIN)".
The scripture says that we are delivered from the law by dying to SIN that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
ROMANS 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
This is talking about the law of sin and death which is sinful human nature previously discussed within the chapter (7:5, 8, 11, 13-15, 17-23).
Then moves on into ROMANS 8
v1, There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh <G4561 sinful human nature>, but after the Spirit. v2, For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death <sinful human nature; the wages of sin is death Romans 6:23).
It is the law of SIN and death that we are freed from not God's LAW as it only gives us a KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is Romans 7 v7, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16, 22, 25. 3:20
This is why in the last post the discussion was around the scriptures in relation to BONDAGE and being a SERVANT OF SIN v7, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16, 22, 25 Romans 6:15-23; John 8:31-36.
This is both the within SCRIPTURE and CHAPTER CONTEXT you have left out of your interpretation of the scriptures.
Sorry but the rest of your post here is only repetition of what you have already posted. You have been provided with scripture that disagrees with your teachings already so this is only repetition. You have chosen to ignore those posts and have not replied to them accept to simply repeat what you have already said the first time round.
Some simple questions however that I think that would help the discussion and worth consideration were asked at the end of my last post to you that you also ignored. If you have some time I think if you honestly answer these questions (with scripture alone) it would help the conversation and understanding of the scriptures we are talking about here. As the answers to these questions are presented in Romans 6; Romans 7 and Romans 8.
................
A few simple questions may help the conversation...
Q. What causes sin the LAW or us?
Q. What causes death the LAW or SIN?
Please consider answering these questions or pray about them
................
Ok, hope this helps,
Nice talking to you catchya latter
Upvote
0
This seems to be where I left off in the long post.
bugkiller[/QUOTE]
Agreed we can not be in bondage to two masters. Walking in God's Spirit is not walking in the law. Rom 8:1, Gal 5:18
OK
No God's Law given to Israel did and does not give us anything. The verse is in the past tense. The law no longer works in our members. The Holy Spirit does - Gal 5;18. The law does nothing. It did something though. The law's work is accomplished for the Christian.
I still will not agree with you on what you believe we are delivered from because I can read.
No this is not true. I provided Scripture why you think I ignored yours. You think I am going to believe like you by focusing on your passages. Even if I parse them and connect the proper verses you will not believe. This is evidenced by your saying the 10 Cs aren't the covenant when Moses says they are Deut 4:13. I could go on with many more.
You do not understand what the law of sin and death is.
No I have not.
No I have not as explained above about your understanding.
You are beyond amazing. The law always requires and gets death for violation. No law - no sin (violation).
No, but you are free to hold that opinion.
It is not the man of flesh that is redeemed. The soul is redeemed. The body of flesh has received it's irrevocable sentence of death and will return to dust from whence it came. You think it's the body of flesh that rises from the dead. Have you not read about Jesus after the resurrection? How did Jesus get into a secured room? It was not the door or a window.
Why do you say such things and demand the keeping of the law (commandment 4)? There is no need for me to quote you any Scripture on this. No I did not ignore your verses in light of your contradictory statement.
Not in your quote. You leave out v 8 and 9 from the passage of Jeremiah you reference. You flatly refuse to discuss the word "new" and v 9 (Jer 31:32).
No I did not miss it because of my above comment.
I have done so as demonstrated in this and my previous posts evidence.
Simple answer - the law especially the 4th you harp about.
Violation of the law. Before you go whoppe!!! This is why we need redemption and deliverance from the law.
You can consider them answered as I did above.
bugkiller[/QUOTE]
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
This was posted elswhere for you.
ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are all those who BELIEVE God's WORD and FOLLOW it. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the NEW COVENANT.
WHO ARE GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT?
GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.
No explanation needed, believe God's Word, and again...
ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.
ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
God's Israel continued...
COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.
ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.
The New Covenant is for God's Israel...
EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.
and again...
JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Paul proclaims it here...
HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD. If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).
GENTILES are now grafted in please read ROMANS 11:16-27
Seems God's WORD disagrees with you.
Not if you are still breaking any of God's 10 Commandments. If you are breaking any of God's 10 Commandments you stand before God guilty before God in sin (1 John 3:4) neither do you know God (1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-10) and need to seek his forgiveness in repentance, confession of sin and faith in God's WORD. None have God's Spriit if they are KNOWINGLY breaking God's LAW (Acts 5:32)
Reading is one thing but we need to pray to God for understanding.
Because I addressed all your scriptures with scripture that disagrees with your interpretation of half a verse showing within scripture and chapter context from ROMANS 6, ROMANS 7 and ROMANS 8 that your belief that God's LAW is abolished is in error. You have not responded to these posts and scriptures that show your error. Now in this thread we are only talking about the three books above that are in disagreement with you not to mention Jesus, Paul, James, John and Peter all in disagreement with you..
SCRIPTURE SUPPORT PROVIDED HERE...
Now BK that is not true where have I ever said God's 10 Commandments are not part of the OLD Covenant? I have only started as the scripture do that the 10 Commandments are not the only thing that makes up the OLD COVENANT. The OLD Covenant also included the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT. Many do not know what the NEW Covenant is because they do not understand what the OLD COVENANT is.
EXODUS 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the hearing of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.
DEUTERONOMY 29:21 And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
DEUTERONOMY 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.
too many more to list..
There is no need to be confused. The law of sin and death is sinful human nature. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23; Romans 7:23; Romans 8:2)
continued...
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Of course it is. God's WORD disagrees with you.
ROMANS 7:5 [5], For when we were in the FLESH <G4561 Carnal mind or sinful human nature>, the motions of SINS, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit to death.
Indeed, ROMANS 7 is talking about the experience of the UNCONVERTED man and the law of SIN and DEATH (Sinful nature). It concludes in v24-25
[24], O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[25], I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. SO THEN WITH THE MIND I MYSELF SERVE THE LAW OF GOD ; but with the flesh <G4561 Carnal mind or sinful human nature> the law of sin (not Born again).
Slavation from SIN is found in Jesus Christ (Saviour) ....
SO then with the MIND I serve the LAW of GOD.... Sound familiar?
HEBREWS 8:10 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people
links to..
EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. [27], And I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.
Romans 8 continue the same...
ROMANS 8:1-14
[1], There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH <G4561 Carnal mind or sinful human nature>, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT <Ezekiel 36:26-27; Hebrews 8:10; Jeremiah 31:31-34; NEW COVENANT PROMISE>.
[2], FOR THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS <Ezekiel 36:26-27; Hebrews 8:10; Jeremiah 31:31-34; NEW COVENANT PROMISE> has made me free from the law of sin and death <carnal mind or sinful human nature>.
[3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh <G4561 Carnal mind or sinful human nature>, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh <G4561 Carnal mind or sinful human nature>: [4], That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh <G4561 Carnal mind or sinful human nature>, but after the Spirit.
[5], For they that are after the flesh <G4561 Carnal mind or sinful human nature> do mind the things of the flesh <G4561 Carnal mind or sinful human nature>; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[6], For to be carnally <G4561 same grk word used as FLESH; Carnal mind or sinful human nature> minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7], Because the carnal mind <G4561 same grk word used as FLESH; Carnal mind or sinful human nature> is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[8], So then they that are in the flesh <G4561 same grk word used as CARNAL ; Carnal/FLESH = carnal mind or sinful human nature> cannot please God.
[9], But you are not in the flesh <G4561 same grk word used as CARNAL ; Carnal/FLESH = carnal mind or sinful human nature> , but in the Spirit <Ezekiel 36:26-27; Hebrews 8:10; Jeremiah 31:31-34; NEW COVENANT PROMISE>, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[10], And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
[11], But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also bring to life your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you.
[12], Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh <G4561 same grk word used as CARNAL ; Carnal/FLESH = carnal mind or sinful human nature>, to live after the flesh.
[13], For if you live after the flesh <G4561 same grk word used as CARNAL ; Carnal/FLESH = carnal mind or sinful human nature>, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live.
[14], For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
..................
Returning back to your ROMANS 7:5-9
[5], For when we were in the flesh <G4561 same grk word used as CARNAL ; Carnal/FLESH = carnal mind or sinful human nature>, the passions of sins, which were by the law <KNOWLEDGE OF SIN>, did work in our members <SIN> to bring forth fruit unto death <ROMANS 6:23, The WAGES OF SIN is DEATH>.
[6], But now we are delivered from the law <penalty and condemnation>, being dead to that in which we were held; <SIN> that we should serve in newness of spirit, <NEW COVENANT PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT; Ezekiel 36:26-27; Jeremiar 31:31-33; Hebrews 8:10-12> and not in the oldness of the letter (KNOWLEDGE OF SIN).
No. What does God's WORD say?
ROMANS 3:23 For ALL HAVE SINNED, and come short of the glory of God.
WHO commits SIN? WE DO. God's LAW only gives us a KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is. (Romans 3:20)
No. What does God's Word say?
ROMANS 6:23 [23], For the wages of SIN IS DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.
ROMANS 7:12-13 [12], Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13], WAS THEN THAT WHICH IS GOOD MADE DEATH UNTO ME? GOD FORBID. BUT SIN, THAT IT MIGHT APPEAR SIN, WORKING DEATH IN ME by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
Can you see that these two questions answered by God's WORD makes your whole argument and interpretation of half a scripture fall down?
I pray that you may consider these scriptures.
Hope this helps...
Last edited:
Upvote
0
I know this. However the rules of English grammar are different and require punctuation. The KJV is not a literal word for word rendition. It is fairly accurate even today. Word meanings and how they are used does change.
Rules of English. You have to prove a change of subject even if you use the Greek. You can not do this.
Greek for above English text. It does not make your point either.
You just said there is no punctuation in Greek. So where are you getting this from?
Please pay attention to the blue above in your quote. Thanks.
No because it is the law that passes the sentence of death.
This is addressed especially to and for the benefit of Jewish believers. Gentiles could care less about matters of the law.
NOPE!!!!
There is no such passage to be found saying bound only by violation.
NOPE!!!!
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
I also quoted this verse to show the other thing it says. So please note the emphasis I made in your quote. Who do you think the Christian is in the verse? Is it the righteous or is it the wicked unregenerate? And no I did not change the meaning of the verse in either case.
No because -
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; I Tim 1
You are not using the law lawfully.
If you say I am not righteous (sin) because I do not observe the sabbath, you effectively say righteousness is by the law. Make up your mind.
IOW one is not righteous. You prove my point without my input.
If I have not told you to explain what I think the OC is, please do so now. I will quote Moses for you again.
Your intention here is to call me a liar with Scripture by misuse. Here is the proof -
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. I Jn 3
Here you make further accusations against through the Scripture.
- You ignore the word also
- You claim I do not know Jesus or God
- You claim I am of the devil
- You transgress the law you demand I keep
- You sin so by your quoted emphasis You do not know God or Jesus
- You claim to be of the devil because you sin
What are the commandments of God (hint - I Jn 3:23) and what is the testimony of Jesus Christ? (hint - it is not the law)
Ditto the above with the exception of what is the faith of Jesus? IOW what did Jesus believe He came to do and did He accomplish this?
You are gloating about being able to do something you say I can not. You are misusing and assigning the pronoun and word "commandments." You add to the text to mean the 10 Cs. This is not what the text says. See I Jn 3:23.
Yes and Amen here. Notice it says obedience to the faith. It does not say obedience to the law.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Rom 14
Your claim here is I continue in (practice) sin. The problem is I am not subject to the law issued at Sinai to Israel. I have a new and better covenant based on better promises instead of law.
This does not mean we are to follow the law.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Gal 5
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom 7
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. Gal 4
3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Gal
The rest of your post appears in my next post.
bugkiller
Upvote
0
Talking about yourself again I see.
NOPE!!!
Why do you say such things after quoting from I John and Revelation?
Hows bout 8:4-7?
What unrepentant sin are you blabbering about? As a Christian I am not subject to the law issued to Israel at Sinai. As a Christian I have a new and better covenant based on better promises.Indeed something we can agree on
No one that I know of. However I find this -
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jn 8
The law does not make you free from anything. Your Q and A appear in my next post.
bugkiller
Q. What is Jesus to make us free from?
JOHN 8:31-36 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free? [34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin. [35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever. [36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
[/quote]Nothing about the law in your quote above.
NOPE!!!!
Paul says the law (Rom 7:7-11).
Q. What causes death the LAW or SIN?[/quote]Rom 7:7-11
I have done so long before CF existed.
You post does not help anyone.
bugkiller
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Makes no difference either way the Greek does not change and the outcome is still the same interpretation wise, especially when considering within scriptuure and chapter context which you were missing in your interpretation of half a verse of scripture.
There is no change of subject just a continuation of the same subject and topic from verse 5 which is sin in the flesh (sinful human nature) working in us to bring forth death.
Context was the point and it has already been made and shown through the scriptures in the previous posts above that it has been ignored in your interpretation of half a scripture.
Already have before writing it. Thanks though.
You do know your saying no to a scripture right?
..........
Q. Was it the law that causes death or was it sin?
ROMANS 7:12-13 [12], Why the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13], Was then that which is good made death to me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
ROMANS 6:23 [23], THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
A. SIN causes death not God's LAW. God's LAW gives us a KNOWLEDGE of what sin is.
God's WORD disagrees with you.
Please provide the reference from the 10 Commandments that say God's LAW passes the death sentance?
If you cannot you should believe God's WORD and stop saying no to it. It is God's WORD that says the wages of SIN is death and that God's Law is holy just and good and NOT death not me.
Sorry BK that is not true at all.
This has already been demonstrated with scripture no need to comment further.
That is like what you were trying to argue earlier when scripture was quoted to you showing that if we break and of God's LAW using examples from the 10 Commandments of killing and adultery (James 2:8-12) and saying it does not refer to the 10 Commandments because the words 10 Commandments were not used in the scripture. Yet it was two of the ten commandments used as the example to refer to God's LAW.
God's Word disagrees with you.
Yep already shown through scripture in the posts above.
................
You write...
this was replied to with...
Now you say this...
What your saying here does not make any sense. I quoted the scripture to show that God's LAW condemns those who break it not those who through faith obey it *Righteous man (Chrsitian).
That does not seem to make any sense. Please read what your quoting from and try again.
Please re-read 1 TIMOTHY 1:9. If you are breaking ANY of God's Commandments you stand guilty before God in SIN (Romans 3:19-20; James 2:8-12) and are NOT righteous before God and do not KNOW God (1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-10), That is NOT saying you are righteous by obeying the LAW simply that you are not righteous before God if you break it.
I already quoted righteousness by faith through grace to you from Ephesian 2:8. It is ok you do not need to apologise. I will leave it between you and God. As it is your salvation not mine.
Already have by providing God's WORD. Read the scripture support attached to my statements or questions.
to be continued.....
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Not at all. The scripture was quoted to show that those who teach against God's 10 Commandments according to God's WORD do not know him and are not from God.
Are you teaching against God's Commandments?
You quote here 1 John 3:23 in this part of your post to try and argue that 1 John 2:3-4 is not referring to the 10 Commandments right? Let's look at your claim here by examining CONTEXT again like we have already done for the half scripture of ROMANS 7:6.
First let's see how God's WORD clearly defines what sin is....
What is SIN?
JAMES 2:8-12 [8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: [9], But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW
James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW
links to...........
1 JOHN 3:4 [4], Whosoever commits SIN transgresses also the law: for SIN is the transgression of the law.
John is in agreement with James and states that if we TRANSGRESS God's LAW then we commit SIN because SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF GOD'S LAW. So it is very clear that SIN is breaking ANY of God's LAW (10 commandments)
Links to...........
ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known SIN, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Well here we have Paul in agreement with James and John also telling us that SIN is breaking God's commandments and uses the 10th commandment as an example of breaking any of God's LAW (10 commandments) = SIN (Exodus 20:17)
Links to............
ROMANS 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.
Once again Paul is in agreement with John and James which all agree together that if we break any of God's LAW (10 commandments) we commit SIN because as James, John and Paul all agree together that SIN is breaking ANY of God's 10 commandments.
Ok now that we have our definition of what sin is (breaking any of God's 10 Commandments) from God's WORD, let's look at the CONTEXT of 1 John 2:3-4 and then move on to the CONTEXT of chapter 3:23.
1 JOHN 2:1-4 [1], My little children, these things write I to you, that you sin not <do not break God's 10 Commandments>. And if any man sin <break God's 10 Commandments> , we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:[2], And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Note: v1 the reason John is writing the book? these things write I to you, that you sin not <do not break God's 10 Commandments> v3-4 Shows those who break God's Commandments do not KNOW God and are not from God.
...................
Now that we have a Biblical definition of SIN (breaking any of God's 10 Commandments) and we have established the CONTEXT of 1 JOHN 2 which is that was SIN NOT.
Let's move now to the CONTEXT of 1 John 3:23 and see what it is saying...
1 JOHN 3:3-15
[3], And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
4, Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF GOD'S LAW.
[5], And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[6], Whosoever abides in him SIN <breaks God's LAW> not: whosoever SIN<breaks God's LAW> hath not seen him, neither known him.
[7], Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous <Psalms 119:172 All your commandments = RIGHTEOUSNESS>.
[8], He that commits SIN <breaks God's LAW> is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[9], Whosoever is born of God DOES NOT commit SIN<breaks God's LAW>; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot SIN<breaks God's LAW>, because he is born of God.
[10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.
[11], For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
[12], Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
[13], Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
[14], We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loves not his brother abides in death.
[15], Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Some key points..........
v4. SIN = Breaking God's Commandments
v6. Those who knowingly break God's commandments do not know God links to 2:3-4
v7. Don't be DECEIVED only those who DO NOT break God's commandments are is RIGHTEOUS as HE IS RIGHTEOUS
v8. If you are living in a life of KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN you are following the DEVIL and not GOD (Acts 17:30-31; Heb 10:26:27)
v9. If you are BORN OF GOD you will NOT practice SIN
v10. LOVE AND OBEDIENCE to GOD'S LAW SHOW WHO ARE GOD'S PEOPLE and DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD'S LAW SHOW THE CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL
v15. Example of the 7th commandment (Exodus 20: 13) being broken. Those who brake God's LAW and SIN DO NOT have ETERNAL LIFE
................
CONCLUSION: The CHAPTER and SCRIPTURE CONTEXT is those who are OBEDIENT to GOD'S Commandments and those who are DISOBEDIENT to God's COMMANDMENTS mentioning MURDER in v15 which is the 6th Commandment of the 10 Commandments (Exodus 20:13). PAUL, JAMES and JOHN all agree together that SIN is breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments.
Sorry BK, God's WORD disagrees with your interpretation of 1 JOHN 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:23 as you have left out CONTEXT which is those who SIN <Break God's Commandments> do not KNOW God and are NOT his children.
................
No one breaking ANY of God's Commandments are being led by God's SPIRIT neither do they KNOW GOD as they are still "UNDER THE LAW" and stand guilty before God of breaking it (1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-10; Romans 3:19-20)
NONE have God's Spirit if they are breaking ANY of God's Commandments and need to seek him in repentance and forgiveness before they can recieve God's Spirit. (Acts 5:32; 2:38; 3:19; 8:22)
................
SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)
Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.
................
God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)
Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)
There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.
Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?
In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Because FAITH establishes God's LAW in the BELIEVER. This is the NEW COVENANT.
HEBREWS 8:8-12
[8], For finding fault with them, he said, Behold, the days come, said the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
[9], Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, said the Lord.
[10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, said the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
[12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
[13], In that he said, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.
ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law.
ROMANS 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. [9], For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
links to..
MATTHEW 22:36-40
[36], Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38], This is the first and great commandment.
[39], And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40], On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Nope no where in ROMANS 8 says that God's LAW is a carnal commandment. You are getting the word CARANAL MIND same GREEK word used for FLESH σαρκός G4561 (sinful human nature) mixed up with I am not sure what?
What unrepentant sin are you blabbering about?Indeed something we can agree on
Read the scriptures attached to what you are quoting from.
All who profess to be Chrsitian and knowingly break God's Commandments are not Christian (1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-10). If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT. Gentiles are now grafted it (Romans 11:16-27)
You might be mixed up this is a reference to Jesus making us free from sin not God's LAW. (John 8:32-36)
Upvote
0
Why are you chastising me for half a verse when you do the same changing the meaning of the verse? The last half of Rom 7:6 does not change the meaning of the first half. You insert things that are not there. Verse 5 talks about when we were in the flesh. 8:1 says we are in Christ Jesus.Sin therefore does not bind us. The law is dead as shown in the first 4 verses of chapter 7. Chapter 6 says we have dies with Christ and risen with Him. 8:1 says we are in Jesus Christ. It should be obvious the Christian is not in the flesh. It is very unfortunate many try so hard to change the outside of the cup and white wash the sepulcher. Most all people only look at the outside of the cup.
No sir I am not. You want to talk about the word "new" and Jer 31:32?
So why are you ignoring -
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
I have no idea how any one who reads the above can say sin is the cause.
bugkiller
Upvote
0
The Book of the Law would not do what you ask for? If there is no power for the the 10 Cs to cause death for violation they are only suggestions. What happened to the man who was caught picking up sticks on the sabbath? Why did this happen?
Your claim is not keeping the sabbath is sin. I am not subject to the sabbath according to the NT and what your refuse to discuss.
Only because you say so. Unfortunately your opinion does not stand up to Scripture. It is opinion because there is no support from the Bible. I did not say because you did not quote the Bible.
Quote and reference me saying such or withdraw and apologize. You talk about false accusations.
You by pass Rom 8:1 here to make such a statement. You also by pass Rom 3:21 and chapter 4.
If you stand guilty before God you are not saved. I have already passed the judgment (JN 5:24), you? You are the one demanding the law be kept and do not keep it yourself. You are the one with a grave personal problem.
bugkiller
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
You do not understand what you say here.
Not any more than Jesus did.
You have a pronoun problem and use John against himself here.
The last half of Rom 7:6 says nothing in regard to sin in any text you have quoted.
The rest of your post is self defeating your own argument.
bugkiller
Upvote
0
Similar threads
