7th Trumpet Rapture?

[keras]

Luke 24:9; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 says nothing about us being wheat to be carried off to the granary of the Holy land.
What Bible are you reading?

The Bible that we all have, the one that says the Lord will gather His sheep into His holy Land and will bless them there. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Psalms 37:29, +

We are grafted in now as the church but we will be raptured so Israel can fulfill their covenants.
Even if we were to go through the tribulation the Jews would still take their place in their covenants in the KoH reign that is different from the churches.
The church is one body of Christ but there are different positions of authority. You have a problem with that?
Quit being so illogical to the scriptures.

The theory of a rapture to heaven of the church is totally unbiblical and conflicts with many prophesies that say how the Lord will protect His own, on earth. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 91, +
You seen incapable of understanding the scriptures I posted in #1144. They prove that since Jesus came, the promises of God to ethnic Israel have transferred to spiritual Israel.
Believing otherwise is illogical and is another Gospel.

 

[jerry kelso]

The Bible that we all have, the one that says the Lord will gather His sheep into His holy Land and will bless them there. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Psalms 37:29, +

The theory of a rapture to heaven of the church is totally unbiblical and conflicts with many prophesies that say how the Lord will protect His own, on earth. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 91, +
You seen incapable of understanding the scriptures I posted in #1144. They prove that since Jesus came, the promises of God to ethnic Israel have transferred to spiritual Israel.
Believing otherwise is illogical and is another Gospel.

keras, I have already shown why your scriptures you use are not right. It is because you don’t believe in the historical context. Then you generalize scriptures to transfer them to the church. This is improper context.
I have shown you are wrong and all you can do is disagree. You can’t rebut the truth.

2. Isaiah 43:2 is an historical passage. There was no New Testament church. Where is the transfer. Nowhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Psalm 91 is a historical passage. There is no New Testament Church. They are both under the law of Moses.
These passages are not really speaking about the KoH reign directly. It was spoken more to the promises of protection under the Mosaic Law.
The spiritual truths can be applied to the Christians personal lives.

3. The rapture to Heaven is no theory. Jesus raptures the church and brings thedeadwith him and they are resurrected and changed in the twinkling of an eye and so we shall ever be with the Lord 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
This is before the tribulation starts Revelation 4:1; 5:10. Jesus is never on earth during the tribulation.
This rapture is contrasted with the Day of the Lord in chapter 5.

4. It is clear you don’t understand context about the KoH and the KoG in Jesus Day because you didn’t even address it because you couldn’t rebut it.
Instead you go back to try and prove the gathering of gentile sheep to the Holy land. All generalizing. Wrong hermeneutics.
And then you go back to the rapture to Heaven as a theory which is preposterous when we will be ever with the Lord and this is a comfort for not having to be deceived and miss the rapture and lose out at the Day of the Lord for we are children of the day not of the the night and darkness.

5. You need to understand proper hermeneutics and how to reconcile the scriptures together properly. You are stopped up by your wrong hermeneutics.

6. Why do you hate so bad that Israel has a different calling than the church?
Are you mad because there are different positions of Authority in the one body of Christ? Well, answer that. Are you going to deny there are different positions of authority in the one body of Christ? Answer this!Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

A doctrine built on a difference that does not exist, cannot be correct.

.

baberean2,

1. Even if they were the same you still have a physical kingdom reign and a spiritual kingdom concerning salvation for God will not rule with man without a holy heart.
So Israel still has eternal covenants for both that will come to pass at the appointed time.

2. There are different positions of authority in the one body of Christ. Does that make you mad? That is the only difference between Israel and the church age saints.
We will all be one people under the New Covenant. So answer to this. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

This rapture is contrasted with the Day of the Lord in chapter 5.

The following verse proves that chapter 4 is connected to chapter 5.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

 

[Rukado]

But Personally, like most believers, I'm not sure when the rapture will happen...

If you belong to Christ, you'll see Jesus after you die. Not before.

 

[jerry kelso]

The following verse proves that chapter 4 is connected to chapter 5.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

baberean2,

1. There is no record of a rapture on the Day of Armageddon.

2. The First Resurrection is completed Revelation 15:1-2 before the Wrath Of God Revelation 16:1 and are only martyred which agrees with John 5:29 of what Jesus called the last day.
Why? Because the Wrath Of God is on the beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 16:2.

3. The Old and New Testament and tribulation saints will be in Heaven at the Marriage of the Lamb Revelation 7-10 and then shall come out of Heaven v 11-21 to go to Armageddon.

4. The rapture was not as known as the the Day of the Lord. This is why Paul said But of the times and seasons, brethren ye have no need that I write unto you.
The times and seasons shows that the Day of the Lord is not just one day only.
Both the rapture and the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night so they cannot be dated.
Saying, peace and safety will be said before the end of the tribulation and sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail of a woman with child and they shall not escape is Jewish in nature as the time of Jacob’s trouble which is the last 3.5 years of the tribulation.
The church will not be in the tribulation Romans 11:25.

5. Christians are not in darkness because they are not sinners. Day is associated with Christians.
We don’t sleep as do others because we are not sinners.
We are to watch and be sober that we don’t fall asleep or become a sinner again. Sinners sleep in the night and are drunken in the night not Christians.
Christians put on on the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet of salvation.
Why? Because we are not appointed to Wrath but salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Verses 8-10 are all one stream of thought.

6. Chapter 4 we are to be comforted that the rapture will happen if we believe Jesus Christ died and rose again 1 Thessalonians 4:15.
Chaper 5 we comfort ourselves together and edify one another as we always do because of who we are as children of the day as Christians.
We are to be careful to guard ourselves and not fall from grace and miss the rapture and have to deal with the second advent for that is not our destiny.

7. At the rapture you want to be taken and not left for you will have to deal with the second advent 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. These are only believers.

8. At the second advent you want to be the one left, not taken Matthew 24:37-39; 40-41.
Your context is wrong and you can’t reconcile other scriptures to prove your positions to begin with. Jerry kelso

 

[Riberra]

2. The First Resurrection is completed Revelation 15:1-2 before the Wrath Of God Revelation 16:1 and are only martyred which agrees with John 5:29 of what Jesus called the last day.
Why? Because the Wrath Of God is on the beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 16:2.

Revelation 15:1-2 is about the SOULS of those who have been beheaded because they refused to worship the Beast and refused to take the mark.

Revelation 15:1-2
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having seven plagues, [which are] the last, for in them is finished the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and them that come off victorious from the beast, and from his image, and from the number of his name, standing by the sea of glass, having harps of God.


Revelation 16 is about God avenging their blood upon those who have worshiped the Beast and who have taken the mark.
Revelation 16
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels, Go ye, and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth.

2 And the first went, and poured out his bowl into the earth; and it became a noisome and grievous sore upon the men that had the mark of the beast, and that worshipped his image.


The Resurrection of those who will refuse to take the mark and will refuse to worship the Beast Revelation 20:4-6 clearly occurs at the Coming Of Jesus who is mentioned in Revelation 19 ...

There is no trip to Heaven for the believers before the 42 months reign of the Beast mentioned in the Bible ....only your wishful thinking.

 

[BABerean2]

There is no record of a rapture on the Day of Armageddon.

The timing of the event at the end of 1 Thessalonians 4 occurs on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief", as described in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2.
The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Revelation 15:1-2 is about the SOULS of those who have been beheaded because they refused to worship the Beast and refused to take the mark.

Revelation 15:1-2
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having seven plagues, [which are] the last, for in them is finished the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and them that come off victorious from the beast, and from his image, and from the number of his name, standing by the sea of glass, having harps of God.


Revelation 16 is about God avenging their blood upon those who have worshiped the Beast and who have taken the mark.
Revelation 16
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels, Go ye, and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth.

2 And the first went, and poured out his bowl into the earth; and it became a noisome and grievous sore upon the men that had the mark of the beast, and that worshipped his image.


The Resurrection of those who will refuse to take the mark and will refuse to worship the Beast Revelation 20:4-6 clearly occurs at the Coming Of Jesus who is mentioned in Revelation 19 ...

There is no trip to Heaven for the believers before the 42 months reign of the Beast mentioned in the Bible ....only your wishful thinking.

riberra,

1. You have given your opinion but you haven’t proved your position. Anybody can give their opinion.
You are going to have to do better than that.
It boils down to hermeneutics and I am not sure you understand that.
Do you really know why you believe what you believe and how you arrive at that? Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

The timing of the event at the end of 1 Thessalonians 4 occurs on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief", as described in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2.
The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

.

baberean2,

1. Do you understand Revelation 6:19 shows nothing about the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17?
It shows nothing but martyrs Revelation 6:9-11; 7:13-17; 13:7;14:13;15:1-2 which fits the Last Day Jesus preached John 5:29 which is the same as the First Resurrection Revelation 20:4-6.
I have told you before but you couldn’t rebut it.
This is why you have to insert 1Thessalonians 4:15-17. You have no scripture to back that up.

2. The rapture is not like a thief in the night for Christians who are looking for the Blessed Hope.
The second advent is like thief in the night because like sinners who knew the flood was coming didn’t believe and it took them off and they all died.

3. Revelation 16:15; is about the second advent at Armageddon.
Keepeth his garments has nothing to do with believers who will be raptured.
They are those in Matthew 24:40-41 who are left. Verse 42; Watch therefore for you not know what hour your Lord doth come.
Then he gives the parable about the goodman of the house watching and be ready for the thief in the night. The faithful and wise servant will be rewarded and the evil servant will go to hell.
There is no rapture in there.
Now unless you can debunk this you only have your opinion.
Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

looking for the Blessed Hope.

You cut out part of that verse for some strange reason...

Tit_2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

.

 

[jgr]

baberean2,

1. Even if they were the same you still have a physical kingdom reign and a spiritual kingdom concerning salvation for God will not rule with man without a holy heart.
So Israel still has eternal covenants for both that will come to pass at the appointed time.

2. There are different positions of authority in the one body of Christ. Does that make you mad? That is the only difference between Israel and the church age saints.
We will all be one people under the New Covenant. So answer to this. Jerry kelso

Jerry,

There's all that "Israel" again. It's obviously challenging, nay impossible, to defend something that you cannot define and distinguish.

Here are the choices for defining and distinguishing Israel, some of which you've said you reject:

1. Ethnicity
2. Religion
3. Culture
4. Something else -- what?

It can't be difficult to choose one or more. What is/are your choice/s?

Here are the Church's:
1. Faith
2. Obedience

Both are essential.

You'll protest that you've answered this before.

But you never have. I've never seen your list of distinctives.

 

[jerry kelso]

You cut out part of that verse for some strange reason...

Tit_2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

.

baberean2,

1. The grace of God teaches us to deny all ungodliness in verse 12. The great God and our Savior is none other than Jesus Christ.

2. I see you can’t debunk the rest of what I said about the rapture. You are wrong once again because you won’t understand context. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

There's all that "Israel" again. It's obviously challenging, nay impossible, to defend something that you cannot define and distinguish.

Here are the choices for defining and distinguishing Israel, some of which you've said you reject:

1. Ethnicity
2. Religion
3. Culture
4. Something else -- what?

It can't be difficult to choose one or more. What is/are your choice/s?

Here are the Church's:
1. Faith
2. Obedience

Both are essential.

You'll protest that you've answered this before.

But you never have. I've never seen your list of distinctives.

jgr,

1. I have told you countless time but you won’t listen or understand.

2. Israel is ethnicity because they are Jews.
Faith and obedience and repentance marks the true ethnic Jew that will be a true inheriter in their homeland of Israel. This includes Judah where the throne of Israel will be.

3. The church never owned the Land of Israel or was ever promised the throne in their homeland for they have none.
Matter of fact the church had no covenant till the cross. Jews and Gentiles are in one body of Christ today. Israel and Judah are backslidden and will repent and become one stick in the KoH reign.
They will be under the New Covenant so all saints will be one in Christ. All saints will have different positions of authority in the KoH reign.

4. Jesus gave Apostles, teachers, pastors etc. Ephesians show they were gifts to the church but Corinthians show there were positions of authority.
Does that make you upset or are you fine with it?
Paul was an apostle over his flock.
Do you not understand that the church will have different positions of authority according to their works of faithful stewardship?
Do you not understand Israel will be at the head of the nations because God promises the eternal covenants of Genesis 12:1-3; 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-8?
Are you going to deny these scriptures?
Just like Jesus promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church, he has promised the true ethnic Jewish nation that are all spiritual Jews the land and throne of his people Israel. Are you going to keep denying these scriptures? If so why? Why are you so vehemently opposed to Israel fulfilling their destiny God has given them to fulfill? Jerry kelso

 

[keras]

Why are you so vehemently opposed to Israel fulfilling their destiny God has given them to fulfill? Jerry kelso

Here is the destiny of the people group we call Israelis, who call themselves Jews, but are not real Jews; not Israelites of the heart:

Ezekiel 21:2-7 Son of man, set your face toward Jerusalem and prophesy against the Land of Israel. My sword will be drawn against everyone from the Negev to the North, it will kill both the righteous and wicked alike. All courage will fail – it will surely take place.

Ezekiel 21:10-14 My sword is sharpened to kill, even the scepter of My Royal Son. Testing will surely come and what if the scepter of Judah, which the sword despises, does not continue? Swing the sword three times, the great sword of slaughter.
[1st time – 585BC, 2nd time - 69/70AD, 3rd time- to come, by the Lord Himself]

Jeremiah 8:5-12 Judah has no remorse or repentance, How can you say: We have the Law, when your scribes have falsified it? For all, high and low are out for ill-gotten gain, your prophets and rabbis are frauds, every one of them. This wicked race would rather die than live. They say: All is well; no, nothing is well, they will all fall with a great crash on the Day of Reckoning. You will be as dung spread on the ground. Then, I will give the Land to new owners.

Ezekiel 16:35-63 Listen you harlot: Because of your brazen excesses...I shall bring you to trial for adultery and murder...You must bear the consequences of your lewd and abominable conduct, I shall treat you as you deserve, because you violated an oath and made light of a covenant.
You will remember and be so ashamed and humiliated that you will never open your mouth again. [after the Lord’s punishment and pardon]

Amos 2:4-5 For the crimes of Judah, there will be no reprieve, they have spurned the Law of the Lord and have not observed His decrees. They have followed false gods. Therefore I shall send fire on Judah, fire will consume them.

Hosea 8:14And for you, Judah, a harvest of reckoning will come, I will send fire onto your cities

Zephaniah 1:4-6 Judah will be judged and those who have neither sought the Lord, nor enquired of Him, will be wiped out.

Obadiah 1:15-16 The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations....you too will drink the cup of wrath that My people, Judah, must drink on My Holy mountain.

Jeremiah 19:11 I shall smash this people, as a clay jar is smashed beyond repair. There will be no room left to bury them all.

Jeremiah 21:11-14 To the Royal House of Judah....I shall punish you as you deserve. I shall set fire to your scrubland, it will consume everything around about.

Ezekiel 20:46-47...I am about to kindle a fire in the Negev....it will burn everyone in the Land.

Zechariah 13:8-9 It will happen throughout the Land, that 2/3 of the people will die. The 1/3 left will pass through the refining fire. They will call on Me and I will answer them....
Isaiah 9:18-19 Wicked men have been set ablaze. The Land is scorched and the people are fuel for the fire.

Jeremiah 13:19 The towns in the Negev are besieged, no one can relieve them. Judah has been swept clean away.

Isaiah 4:3-4 The remnant of Judah will be called holy when the Lord cleanses Zion by a Spirit of judgement burning like fire.

Luke 19:27 As for those enemies of Mine, who did not want Me for their King, bring them here and slaughter them

Matthew 27:25 His blood be upon us and our children.

Matthew 21:41-43 The King will bring those criminals to justice and destroy them. Therefore the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will bear its fruit.
Reference: REB. NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.

These prophesies have not been fulfilled. They will be as the Lord judges and punishes all who reject Jesus. Only a small remnant of them will survive.
Your beliefs , Jerry Kelso are wrong and you compound your errors by judging your fellow Christians. Janes 4:11-12

 

[jgr]

jgr,

1. I have told you countless time but you won’t listen or understand.

2. Israel is ethnicity because they are Jews.
Faith and obedience and repentance marks the true ethnic Jew that will be a true inheriter in their homeland of Israel. This includes Judah where the throne of Israel will be.

3. The church never owned the Land of Israel or was ever promised the throne in their homeland for they have none.
Matter of fact the church had no covenant till the cross. Jews and Gentiles are in one body of Christ today. Israel and Judah are backslidden and will repent and become one stick in the KoH reign.
They will be under the New Covenant so all saints will be one in Christ. All saints will have different positions of authority in the KoH reign.

4. Jesus gave Apostles, teachers, pastors etc. Ephesians show they were gifts to the church but Corinthians show there were positions of authority.
Does that make you upset or are you fine with it?
Paul was an apostle over his flock.
Do you not understand that the church will have different positions of authority according to their works of faithful stewardship?
Do you not understand Israel will be at the head of the nations because God promises the eternal covenants of Genesis 12:1-3; 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-8?
Are you going to deny these scriptures?
Just like Jesus promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church, he has promised the true ethnic Jewish nation that are all spiritual Jews the land and throne of his people Israel. Are you going to keep denying these scriptures? If so why? Why are you so vehemently opposed to Israel fulfilling their destiny God has given them to fulfill? Jerry kelso

So it is ethnicity? You've said before that it isn't.

 

[BABerean2]

Faith and obedience and repentance marks the true ethnic Jew that will be a true inheriter in their homeland of Israel. This includes Judah where the throne of Israel will be.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.



Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.



Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

.

1. I guess you are just going to keep on denying the scriptures I gave and avoid answering any questions.

2. The genealogies were about arguments about the Mosaic law and that is not the issue here. Quit generalizing every context.

3. The church is the seed of Christ through salvation anthat is what the promises are about. It is not about positions of authority in the KoH reign.
Quit generalizing scripture.
Are you mad because there are different positions of authority in the church. Answer that! Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

So it is ethnicity? You've said before that it isn't.

jgr,

1. You don’t pay attention very well.
I said ethnicity doesn’t get them back in covenant or into the nation either one. If that was true then the ethnic Jew that is not saved would be a part of the KoH reign in Israel and repentance wouldn’t be the qualification to receive the KoH reign.
You are wrong again Jerry kelso

 

[jgr]

jgr,

1. You don’t pay attention very well.
I said ethnicity doesn’t get them back in covenant or into the nation either one. If that was true then the ethnic Jew that is not saved would be a part of the KoH reign in Israel and repentance wouldn’t be the qualification to receive the KoH reign.
You are wrong again Jerry kelso

You're right that ethnicity doesn't get them into covenant. Only faith and obedience do that.

You say "back in covenant". Do you mean back in the old (dead) covenant?

If ethnicity doesn't get them into the nation, what does?

And what does ethnicity get them into, if anything?