Strong DELUSION

[seventysevens]

where it says it's a a deception/"deceiveth", that's all Satan can do that I know of, it's what he's doing to the world now and what he will do then but the miracles will be pretty convincing. Did you actually point out where he will do real miracles?

Are you asking if there are scriptures that tell that satan does miracles - scripture says that the Man of Sin/Man of Lawlessness who is empowered by satan does miracles and great wonders - He is able to do them because God permits this for the purpose that the
Man of Lawlessness can cause people who have rejected Jesus as the Truth , the True Messiah to be deluded into believing that the man the bible calls Man of Lawlessness to believe that lie that he is God - THAT is the whole point that is why those things are allowed - God will not permit the common man to do such things but He authorizes this man to deceive people to believe the lie - That is why Gods word says God sends the strong delusion in the form of a man that causes people to be deluded into believing the lie

 

[Kenny'sID]

Are you asking if there are scriptures that tell that satan does miracles - scripture says that the Man of Sin/Man of Lawlessness who is empowered by satan does miracles and great wonders - He is able to do them because God permits this for the purpose that the
Man of Lawlessness can cause people who have rejected Jesus as the Truth , the True Messiah to be deluded into believing that the man the bible calls Man of Lawlessness to believe that lie that he is God - THAT is the whole point that is why those things are allowed - God will not permit the common man to do such things but He authorizes this man to deceive people to believe the lie - That is why Gods word says God sends the strong delusion in the form of a man that causes people to be deluded into believing the lie

You'd have to use the arrow on the quotes to easily track back and read why I feel they are not miracles at all, just well done illusions. I quoted scripture to back up my belief.

That was my only argument but the poster who I disagreed with posted a lot of things that didn't seem to have anything to do with that, so, not sure what's going in there.

Actually I said in the post you just quoted exactly what our disagreement was.

 

[seventysevens]

You'd have to use the arrow on the quotes to easily track back and read why I feel they are not miracles at all, just well done illusions. I quoted scripture to back up my belief.

That was my only argument but the poster who I disagreed with posted a lot of things that didn't seem to have anything to do with that, so, not sure what's going in there.

Actually I said in the post you just quoted exactly what our disagreement was.

I asked because it seems that you do not believe that satan will perform miracles - he does but not by his own power as it is God making it happen through an evil man for Gods own purpose - so a person must understand what is going to happen and why it will happen before they really understand how it will happen

 

[Kenny'sID]

I asked because it seems that you do not believe that satan will perform miracles - he does but not by his own power as it is God making it happen through an evil man for Gods own purpose - so a person must understand what is going to happen and why it will happen before they really understand how it will happen

No, I don't believe he does perform actual miracles, and I mentioned why.

Do you have scripture that backs up God giving him the power to preform actual miracles?

 

[seventysevens]

No, I don't believe he does perform actual miracles, and I mentioned why.

Do you have scripture that backs up God giving him the power to preform actual miracles?

It is very important to know the entire bible story - an example if someone impersonates the President they are trying to pass of themself as the President - it depends on how well he does it that determines if he truly succeeds in his goal
The man of sin aka antichrist aka beast is an impersonator impersonating God - God has sent this person to cause people to believe he is God because they rejected Him which has angered Him so the impersonator has been given power to cause the great signs and wonders for the purpose fulfill the goal of convincing people he is really God even though he is just an imposter

2Thess
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,

Rev 13
12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast,

Prophet Elijah had a contest with 450 prophets of baal to prove who's God is a real God
Elijah called for fire to come down out of heaven to set fire to wood that was soaking in water to prove that his God Is real which God did send fire down from heaven in sight of men and burned up the water soaked wood
The Beast and false prophet team cause fire to come down out of heaven impersonating the True God to convince the people that he is God - but it is the True God that authorizes this to happen to insure to convince the people the impersonator is believed because that is what God say the He will do
There is more but this is enough to prove the point

this is part of why Jesus said
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It is very important to know the entire bible story - an example if someone impersonates the President they are trying to pass of themself as the President - it depends on how well he does it that determines if he truly succeeds in his goal
The man of sin aka antichrist aka beast is an impersonator impersonating God - God has sent this person to cause people to believe he is God because they rejected Him which has angered Him so the impersonator has been given power to cause the great signs and wonders for the purpose fulfill the goal of convincing people he is really God even though he is just an imposter

2Thess
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,

Rev 13
12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast,

Prophet Elijah had a contest with 450 prophets of baal to prove who's God is a real God
Elijah called for fire to come down out of heaven to set fire to wood that was soaking in water to prove that his God Is real which God did send fire down from heaven in sight of men and burned up the water soaked wood
The Beast and false prophet team cause fire to come down out of heaven impersonating the True God to convince the people that he is God - but it is the True God that authorizes this to happen to insure to convince the people the impersonator is believed because that is what God say the He will do
There is more but this is enough to prove the point

this is part of why Jesus said
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

Here/below is a quote from an earlier post of mine, with comment and what scripture says, please expand and read it. Think I'll be going with that since my conclusion is based on exactly what the bible says, I mean one can't miss it. Even the KJV backs me on this. No offense, but you draw your conclusion from leaning on your own understanding...for some reason people insist on doing that with scripture and I suppose some always will...oh well..

Or better yet, to help clear things up, maybe you can explain to me what "lying wonders" mean to you if it doesn't mean the wonders he does are a lie, false, an illusion?

I'd have to look it over again to be sure, but as I understood it there was nothing supernatural about the AC, and all that he does is a trick/illusion. I just grabbed a few versions of the bible with that same scripture on that, in including the KJV.

King James Bible
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Christian Standard Bible
The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan's working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders,

Contemporary English Version
When the wicked one appears, Satan will pretend to work all kinds of miracles, wonders, and signs.

Good News Translation
The Wicked One will come with the power of Satan and perform all kinds of false miracles and wonders,


And it makes sense his miracles would be a trick since he is a deceiver, and opposite of Christ.

Special effects.

 

[seventysevens]

Here/below is a quote from an earlier post of mine, with comment and what scripture says, please expand and read it. Think I'll be going with that since my conclusion is based on exactly what the bible says, I mean one can't miss it. Even the KJV backs me on this. No offense, but you draw your conclusion from leaning on your own understanding...for some reason people insist on doing that with scripture and I suppose some always will...oh well..

Or better yet, to help clear things up, maybe you can explain to me what "lying wonders" mean to you if it doesn't mean the wonders he does are a lie, false, an illusion?

One simple question to you - What would it take for a man to do, that would convince you that he is Almighty God ?
Would some special effects cause you to believe it ?

The scripture is outright telling us that God is sending a person that not only proclaims that he is Almighty God - BUT that 99% of all people actually are totally convinced that he really is Almighty God -THAT IS the Strong delusion - do you yet understand why God would do this ?

Again -Would some special effects cause you to believe it ?
or would some supernatural event that ONLY God can do

 

[Kenny'sID]

One simple question to you - What would it take for a man to do, that would convince you that he is Almighty God ?
Would some special effects cause you to believe it ?

The scripture is outright telling us that God is sending a person that not only proclaims that he is Almighty God - BUT that 99% of all people actually are totally convinced that he really is Almighty God -THAT IS the Strong delusion - do you yet understand why God would do this ?

Again -Would some special effects cause you to believe it ?
or would some supernatural event that ONLY God can do

You didn't answer my question.

 

[seventysevens]

You didn't answer my question.

To give you the best answer will require more time than I have right now - but if you give a real true in depth contemplation to what I said - the answer your question should come to you
"lying wonders" in the case of scripture is performing supernatural wonders through a man that cause people to believe a lie - something that is a wonder a supernatural happening

 

[Kenny'sID]

"lying wonders" in the case of scripture is performing supernatural wonders through a man that cause people to believe a lie - something that is a wonder a supernatural happening

How does "lying" equate to "supernatural", they aren't even close to the same thing?

I now see why you didn't answer.

 

[seventysevens]

How does "lying" equate to "supernatural", they aren't even close to the same thing?

I now see why you didn't answer.

Now I see why Davy takes issue with you , you refuse to even consider or give any real thought to anything anyone offers you
You are not able to understand that the Greek words that are scripture that are translated into English that shows lying wonders are a supernatural event that happens to support a lie
I was going to go into depth tomorrow and give you a lot more info - but now that I see how you are - I will not waste my time - If you are unable to understand or take the time to research then you can believe what ever you want to

 

[Kenny'sID]

Now I see why Davy takes issue with you , you refuse to even consider or give any real thought to anything anyone offers you
You are not able to understand that the Greek words that are scripture that are translated into English that shows lying wonders are a supernatural event that happens to support a lie
I was going to go into depth tomorrow and give you a lot more info - but now that I see how you are - I will not waste my time - If you are unable to understand or take the time to research then you can believe what ever you want to

IOW, if I don't agree, I haven't given it any thought? First off you have no evidence whatsoever I didn't give it any thought, that is conjecture just as your ideas on the subject are, they aren't biblical. What you are stating there is flat out untrue, of course I gave it some thought. May I please disagree without you accusing me of something else because I did so? Was that my punishment for disagreeing lol

These things always end the same way, and in this case if I don't agree with such a bizarre statement as "lying wonders" having anything at all to do with the term "supernatural", It must be me that is the problem.
Both that concept, as well as one meaning the other, are both bizarre.

And yes, I think it's probably about time you get out, as you have no biblical grounds for your claims.

Lying wonders, simply put, means untruthful wonders. BTW, it's funny you would accuse me of lack of giving something some thought when I showed you several versions of the same scripture that define the verse just as I do, as in they are fake miracles, and I could, but won't, accuse you of the same exact thing..

I think I've done all I can here.

 

[seventysevens]

IOW, if I don't agree, I haven't given it any thought? First off you have no evidence whatsoever I didn't give it any thought, that is conjecture just as your ideas on the subject are, they aren't biblical. What you are stating there is flat out untrue, of course I gave it some thought. May I please disagree without you accusing me of something else because I did so? Was that my punishment for disagreeing lol

These things always end the same way, and in this case if I don't agree with such a bizarre statement as "lying wonders" having anything at all to do with the term "supernatural", It must be me that is the problem.
Both that concept, as well as one meaning the other, are both bizarre.

And yes, I think it's probably about time you get out, as you have no biblical grounds for your claims.

Lying wonders, simply put, means untruthful wonders. BTW, it's funny you would accuse me of lack of giving something some thought when I showed you several versions of the same scripture that define the verse just as I do, as in they are fake miracles, and I could, but won't, accuse you of the same exact thing..

I think I've done all I can here.

That is why I said to this
IF...IF...IF you understand this your question will be answered
As i said lying wonders -means supernatural happenings that support a lie -again IF you actually read any of the Greek scripture the words are often arranged differently - I challenge to to look it up and see for yourself
Greek is often laid out differently than English

the scripture point is - that it is telling that this particular man called the Man of Lawlessness is not just some guy who professes that he is God - not just some random guy he professes he is Christ
HE IS the guy the WORLD BELIEVES HE IS WHO HE SAYS HE IS - Get IT ???

They believe the lie that he is God because he causes things to happen that ONLY GOD CAN DO --
AS I ASKED OF YOU AND YOU WILL NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION
One simple question to you - What would it take for a man to do, that would convince you that he is Almighty God ?
Would some special effects cause you to believe it ?

The scripture is outright telling us that God is sending a person that not only proclaims that he is Almighty God - BUT that 99% of all people actually are totally convinced that he really is Almighty God -THAT IS the Strong delusion - do you yet understand why God would do this ?

Again -Would some special effects cause you to believe it ?
or would some supernatural event that ONLY God can do

It matters not to me what you prefer to believe - you have a private interpretation that you prefer to believe and when anyone shows you what the bible literally says -you choose to believe your own private interpretation instead of what the bible itself says

 

[BABerean2]

Rev 13
12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast,

With modern air-borne laser systems it would not be that difficult to make it appear that fire had been called down from heaven.

The same is true with incendiary bombs, like the MOAB.

.

 

[Davy]

Not sure where we are at here? Our disagreement was on whether or not the beasts miracles will be illusions or real, but you seem to be talking about something else as many of your comments don't seem to be defending they are real miracles?

Did I miss something/are we still on the same page?

I was merely responding to the subject of your post where you said (especially that part I put in red):

"There are so many arguments on the details of the bible, some of them important to our very salvation, and some not...fortunately, this is not one that is."

The subject being... the "strong delusion", which is the subject of this thread. The "strong delusion" is about the working of deception the coming Antichrist will work that Apostle Paul warned us about.

So as to "passing off the following" You can also pass off my defense, the scripture I posted. I can better answer after I find if were still talking the same thing, but you yourself quoted this....

....where it says it's a a deception/"deceiveth", that's all Satan can do that I know of, it's what he's doing to the world now and what he will do then but the miracles will be pretty convincing. Did you actually point out where he will do real miracles? I pointed out where it states Satan "deceived" in the bible, so I need some scripture that outright says otherwise, and I may be able to then get on board to what you are saying. Or again, maybe I missed something and our disagreement is something else??

I take it that you reject the Revelation 12:7 forward Scripture about Satan and his angels being booted out of the heavenly down to this earth as being literal. I do understand it literally:

Rev 12:7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

That war in heaven is the same event of Daniel 12:1 when Michael 'stands up' (Hebrew amad, 'to stand'). The idea is Michael making a stand in Heaven against Satan. Some try to assign this event as past history. It's not; it's still future to us, as the later verses reveal.

That idea, "neither was their place found any more in heaven" is important. It is revealing that Satan and his angels are to be literally cast out of the heavenly dimension. There's only 2 separate dimensions of existence taught in God's Word, this earthly one we live in, and the heavenly one where God and the angels live. So the idea of his being cast out of the heavenly one means he has to appear in the only other type of dimension that exists, i.e., our earthly dimension.

So can Satan actually appear in our earthly dimension? Yes. God's Garden of Eden was once upon the earth wasn't it? Yes, as per Genesis 2. And Satan as "that old serpent" was in God's Garden of Eden on earth to tempt Adam and Eve, right? Again yes. And we know God's Eden then was on earth, because Genesis 2 reveals God's River in Eden flowing out to feed four other rivers on the earth, two of which still exist on earth today (Euphrates and Hiddekel or Tigris).

So those truths in God's Word present no argument to those who read and heed those things in the simplicity as they are written. The only time arguments exist is with those who refuse to heed the Scripture.


10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV

Those Rev.12:10-12 verses especially reveal the time of this casting out of Satan and his angels is for the very end of this world. Verse 10 reveals Christ's Salvation in Heaven, because Satan ("the accuser") is not there anymore to accuse us before God's Throne (like in Job 1 & 2). The mention of those who "overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony", is also a 5th Seal event of saints that will be delivered up at the very end of this world to give a Witness for Christ Jesus. Verse 12 is then emphatic that Satan is cast down 'among' those dwelling on earth. That did not happen back at Satan's rebellion of old before this world. There were no flesh people back then.

The "short time" of Rev.12:12 is also a reference for the very end of this world. Satan knows he has only a short time at the end to work the "strong delusion" on the deceived.

Rev 12:13-17
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The symbolic 'woman' at the start of this Rev.12 chapter was put for the literal seed of Israel only. But the later 17th verse reveals here the 'woman' is put for those who have the "testimony of Jesus Christ". Just who would that be? Christ's Church, of course. These are metaphors regarding riding on wings of a great eagle, etc. The literal meaning it points to is about being 'sealed' by The Holy Spirit so as to not be deceived (Message of Rev.7 & 9). That's what the water as a flood out of the serpent's mouth in the next verse points to...

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Our Lord uses the time of the flood of Noah's day as a metaphor for what comes out of the 'mouth' of the serpent (i.e., lies). In Rev.13 and Dan.7 & 11, the Antichrist will speak great blasphemies (the greatest one Paul showed in 2 Thess.2 as proclaiming himself to be God). In Noah's day, the ark was upon the 'height of the waters' of the flood for 150 days (or five months per old Hebrew calendar reckoning). Per Rev.9, the stinging is for five months upon those not sealed with God's seal.


17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

Revelation 13:7 revealed this event of Satan, the "dragon", coming to make war upon the saints, and overcome them.

Rev 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
KJV

So what I was revealing in my previous post was in alignment with Paul's Message about the "strong delusion" he showed in the 2 Thess.2 chapter, which is about the coming "man of sin" or Antichrist to sit in a temple in Jerusalem, proclaiming himself as God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped. I could keep going with this further per God's Word too, because the Revelation references our Lord Jesus gave about the one who ascends out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition is de facto about Satan himself. In Revelation 17, it is showing him as the coming little horn king of Daniel. And that is a prophecy for the very end of this world, as John was shown events from Dan.7 in Rev.13:2 regarding the ten horn, ten crown, seven head kingdom for the end.

 

[Davy]

According to the preterist perspective of Doctor Kenneth Gentry, as I understand it. The Beast symbolizes the Pagan Roman Empire. And the Beastly Lamb symbolizes all of the false messiahs, which arose in Judea in the first century. Leading up to the first Jewish war from 66 to 73 AD. For example, the numerous false messiahs described by Josephus.

Careful you don't get locked into the seminary doctrines. If you ask God for understanding in His Word, He will show you as you discipline yourself in it. Then you won't have to rely on men like Dr. Kenneth Gentry.

I recommend you study Daniel 2 regarding the beast statue image and it's sections. We are shown the 'legs of iron', which was actually the 4th beast kingdom, and symbolized pagan Rome. But for the end, we are shown the feet of ten toes of clay mixed with iron, suggesting a possible revival of the old pagan Roman empire. Yet that is in reality only a pointer to the coming one-world beast kingdom of Revelation 13, because the Dan.2 statue is shown having all pieces together for the end when Jesus comes to smite it upon its feet, and the whole comes tumbling down, and then His everlasting Kingdom is setup. Thus the beast statue actually has 5 pieces to it, not 4. All of those will manifest again, together, for the very end of this world. That is what Dan.2 is revealing.

The destruction of Babylon symbolizes the Roman raising of Jerusalem in the year 70 AD.

Yet Jesus gave His Revelation through His Apostle John after the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. Emperor Domitian was in power during John's imprisonment on Patmos, which was around 96 A.D.

Accordingly, I identify the Second coming imagery of Revelation 19 to reflect and symbolize the Christian victory over the Pagan Roman Empire. under Emperor Constantine in about 300 AD. Then the Millennium of Revelation 20 would be the 1000 year heyday of Christianity during the 1000 year, Millennium long Christian Byzantine Empire.

Sorry brother, but that's just too much head burying in the sand for me.

 

[Kenny'sID]

View attachment 228846
That is why I said to this
IF...IF...IF you understand this your question will be answered
As i said lying wonders -means supernatural happenings that support a lie -again IF you actually read any of the Greek scripture the words are often arranged differently - I challenge to to look it up and see for yourself
Greek is often laid out differently than English

the scripture point is - that it is telling that this particular man called the Man of Lawlessness is not just some guy who professes that he is God - not just some random guy he professes he is Christ
HE IS the guy the WORLD BELIEVES HE IS WHO HE SAYS HE IS - Get IT ???

They believe the lie that he is God because he causes things to happen that ONLY GOD CAN DO --
AS I ASKED OF YOU AND YOU WILL NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION
One simple question to you - What would it take for a man to do, that would convince you that he is Almighty God ?
Would some special effects cause you to believe it ?

The scripture is outright telling us that God is sending a person that not only proclaims that he is Almighty God - BUT that 99% of all people actually are totally convinced that he really is Almighty God -THAT IS the Strong delusion - do you yet understand why God would do this ?

Again -Would some special effects cause you to believe it ?
or would some supernatural event that ONLY God can do

It matters not to me what you prefer to believe - you have a private interpretation that you prefer to believe and when anyone shows you what the bible literally says -you choose to believe your own private interpretation instead of what the bible itself says

I think I have made my end of this clear, and I'll go with the what the bible clearly says when *I* read it.

 

[seventysevens]

With modern air-borne laser systems it would not be that difficult to make it appear that fire had been called down from heaven.

The same is true with incendiary bombs, like the MOAB.

.

Would that happening cause you to believe that the man who professes to be God really be God?
if not what would he have to do that would convince you ?

 

[seventysevens]

I'll go with the what the bible clearly says when *I* read it.

At least you admit it is your own private interpretation

 

[Kenny'sID]

At least you admit it is your own private interpretation

I admit it's what the bible says, interpret that however it floats your boat.