Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"And Jesus said recipients of eternal life (saved people) shall never perish in John 10:28.

And He didn't add any condtions for recipients to meet in order to not perish.

But you DO.

No, you're the one not seeing your own problem which is not believing what Jesus said in John 10:28."

Do we follow the teachings of Christ or realize the teachings of men that counter Christ are to be rebuked?

We should follow Christ. And believe what He said.

You'd be amazed at how many sites have members that insist Christ's teaching concerning eternal salvation, and the scripture , epistle, that Paul wrote reiterating the theme in the whole of scripture: Romans 11:29: ‘For God’s gift and his call are irrevocable.’

Who would ever want to believe they can lose what Christ died to bestow through the simple act of faith?

Well, quite a few people. Most fall under the theology called "Arminianism", or from the Catholic church. They believe that salvation can be lost, in spite of Rom 6;23 with 11:29. And a host of others.

We are sealed with the holy spirit and are led unto all truth and righteousness by that indwelling spirit of God.

Such people claim that this seal can be broken, and all without any verse to back them up.

God foreknew those who would respond to the good news. But to hear tell it among those who oppose that fact, God couldn't have possibly seen that there were some people whom he called that he didn't know would leave the faith and prefer Hell instead.
Stand for the truth because to do otherwise can compromise a forum. An atheist gained entry into a forum long ago and insisted Christians had to work to stay saved. He was found to have a huge number of dual accounts there promoting the same lie. It got so contentious that the owner made a rule that talking about eternal salvation was forbidden.

There's another forum where the debate on OSAS vs OSNAS got such that they have banned all discussion on it.

We shall know them by their fruits. Even when they are rotten to the core and damned to Hell. And sadly, those type are out there who want to lead people to keep them company there.

yes, sir.

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

I don't care to know Greek.
I've already told you that the translators seem to me to have done a good job.

And when I really want to know something, I'll ask someone who reads the N.T. in Greek. The same person who said the aorist tense is complicated.

You should try understanding plain and simple verses in the bible without going too much out of your way to make them say what you want them to say.

Try exegesis instead of eisegesis.
Which is what you've been doing till now...

He is risen, 2018. No, he was risen in three days and walked the earth for 40 reiterating the gospel he died to deliver.
You don't care to know Greek, but you'll ask someone who reads the N.T in the Greek you don't care to know.
Hostility doesn't become those who are in God's grace. Learn what you do not know from those who know more. That is proper exegesis.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Huh? You asked for an explanation of Eph 4:30. I gave it.


You don't know what you are saying.


I love every verse in the Bible.


Because the discussion is about losing salvation, which that verse doesn't allow.


Anyone who has read my responses to your posts knows that I address your verses.


If so easy, give me any verse that actually says that. You know, prove your claim.

Like I have. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Your claim here violates what Jesus said. Are you aware of that?

Jesus said whoever believes has eternal life. And He also said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

What you just said is in conflict with what Jesus said.

Recipients of eternal life WILL PERISH if they do NOT follow Jesus' commands. Again:
John 14:15
Mathew 5:20
Luke 11:28
Luke 15:24

and all those other verses I've posted --- NOT ALWAYS THE SAME ONES. Something YOU cannot say as you keep repeating the same one over and over. This is because salvation CAN be lost and the N.T. admonishes us to be careful about our salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't care to know Greek.

Yes, I know that.

I've already told you that the translators seem to me to have done a good job.

What they can't relate is the nuance of the grammar.

And when I really want to know something, I'll ask someone who reads the N.T. in Greek. The same person who said the aorist tense is complicated.

I didn't say it wasn't. But with a good textbook, it can be understood.

You should try understanding plain and simple verses in the bible without going too much out of your way to make them say what you want them to say.

Have I mentioned John 10:28?

This is a very straightforward and simple statement about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

If you don't believe that, please explain to me how it isn't that.

Try exegesis instead of eisegesis.

lol

Which is what you've been doing till now...

OK, you've made a claim. Now, prove it with actual examples. Or we'll all know your claims are empty.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Okay, but let's remember here - a person isn't born again by repenting from their sin. They're born again by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ (or in David's day), calling upon and believing the Lord God as his righteousness (same way that Abraham did). David was ALREADY saved before he repented from his sins of adultery and murder.

Secondly, I just looked up the word myself, and you're using the secondary definition of it. The primary definition is "to be convicted of the truth, indicative of trust."

When I look up the word "believe" in the Bible, especially regarding the salvation passage in Acts of the Apostles 16:31, the word in greek is "pisteuō," which is similar to Pistis. Pisteuō = "to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in," or "to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity." So, actually, the Bible says not to believe in or have confidence in your own fidelity (as you're preaching), but rather, to believe in and have confidence in the fidelity (the work and faithfulness) of Christ.

The Bible asks one time, "What must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30).

And it says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." And the word for believe, which is "pisteuō" means to entrust, which is complimentary of the word "pistis."

Who's fidelity do you trust, friend? Yours or Christ's? If you trust yours, are you sure you need a Savior?

I am completely incapable and unworthy of salvation without Jesus’ sacrifice. Nothing I can do will ever change that. But I am called by the Holy Spirit to repent of sin and to be born again into a new creation who no longer loves sin but now hates it. My passion is to do things that are pleasing to The Lord and to help my brothers and sisters who are in need. My passion is fueled by the Holy Spirit. I am confident that He will finish what He has begun in you and FG2. I’ve planted the seeds and it’s up to the Holy Spirit to make them grow. I appreciate this polite discussion we had brother Nicolaus. I pray that God will always be your guide and that He will bless you with understanding of His word. Have a blessed day brother.

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

I said:
"And Jesus said recipients of eternal life (saved people) shall never perish in John 10:28.

And He didn't add any condtions for recipients to meet in order to not perish.

But you DO.

Again, you're speaking to the wrong person.

No, you're the one not seeing your own problem which is not believing what Jesus said in John 10:28."

Ditto.

We should follow Christ. And believe what He said.

Cantankerous spirits should calm down before responding to the wrong people just to express their anger.
There is no should in my faith. I do.

Well, quite a few people. Most fall under the theology called "Arminianism", or from the Catholic church. They believe that salvation can be lost, in spite of Rom 6;23 with 11:29. And a host of others.


Such people claim that this seal can be broken, and all without any verse to back them up.


There's another forum where the debate on OSAS vs OSNAS got such that they have banned all discussion on it.


yes, sir.

Ma'am actually. And interestingly enough such sites are dying for lack of actual Christian's participating. When the truth of God in Christ is banned there is no other end.

Yes, the atheist I mentioned arrived at the forum under those disguises as well. Arminian and Catholic.
Quite a reflex too when confronting people who trust OSAS as gospel, and it is, because they'd be accused of being what apparently is the arch enemy of Arminian belief; Calvinists!

 

[GodsGrace101]

He is risen, 2018. No, he was risen in three days and walked the earth for 40 reiterating the gospel he died to deliver.
You don't care to know Greek, but you'll ask someone who reads the N.T in the Greek you don't care to know.
Hostility doesn't become those who are in God's grace. Learn what you do not know from those who know more. That is proper exegesis.

Yeah. Well, he does know more. He's a theologian and has taught theology and Koine Greek.
I prefer believing him, if you don't mind.
I prefer believing the N.T. which makes it perfectly clear that salvation will be kept if we follow God's commands.

And proper exegesis is coming to a verse with a clear mind,,,not with pre-conceived notions and then demanding to make the verse fit your pre-conceived notion by twisting what it says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Recipients of eternal life WILL PERISH if they do NOT follow Jesus' commands.

Then you are in direct contradiction with what Jesus said in John 10:28.

But it's nice to know that you do not believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

As such, I see no reason to continue any kind of discussion with that kind of person.

Again:
John 14:15
Mathew 5:20
Luke 11:28
Luke 15:24

and all those other verses I've posted --- NOT ALWAYS THE SAME ONES. Something YOU cannot say as you keep repeating the same one over and over. This is because salvation CAN be lost and the N.T. admonishes us to be careful about our salvation.

The reason you say that salvation can be lost is because you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yeah. Well, he does know more. He's a theologian and has taught theology and Koine Greek.
I prefer believing him, if you don't mind.
I prefer believing the N.T. which makes it perfectly clear that salvation will be kept if we follow God's commands.

And proper exegesis is coming to a verse with a clear mind,,,not with pre-conceived notions and then demanding to make the verse fit your pre-conceived notion by twisting what it says.

Does this Greek expert know that you don't believe that recipients of eternal life shall not perish?

That you disagree with what Jesus said?

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

Yeah. Well, he does know more. He's a theologian and has taught theology and Koine Greek.I prefer believing him, if you don't mind.

That's odd when you have no interest in learning Greek.

I prefer believing the N.T. which makes it perfectly clear that salvation will be kept if we follow God's commands.

Belief in a interpolated false teaching doesn't save.

And proper exegesis is coming to a verse with a clear mind,,,not with pre-conceived notions and then demanding to make the verse fit your pre-conceived notion by twisting what it says.

Absolutely! And perhaps one day you'll release the twisted version and trust what Jesus taught and died to seal as eternal truth.

 

[Call me Nic]

I am completely incapable and unworthy of salvation without Jesus’ sacrifice. Nothing I can do will ever change that. But I am called by the Holy Spirit to repent of sin and to be born again into a new creation who no longer loves sin but now hates it. My passion is to do things that are pleasing to The Lord and to help my brothers and sisters who are in need. My passion is fueled by the Holy Spirit. I am confident that He will finish what He has begun in you and FG2. I’ve planted the seeds and it’s up to the Holy Spirit to make them grow. I appreciate this polite discussion we had brother Nicolaus. I pray that God will always be your guide and that He will bless you with understanding of His word. Have a blessed day brother.

One more thing. That's all great! This is the mindset and should be for any growing Christian.

But what you are referring to is the desire to be sanctified and cleansed of evil. Every Christian SHOULD repent from sin, SHOULD do good works, SHOULD help others. However, none of these things bring salvation.

Only faith in the Lord Jesus brings salvation. This is biblical.

You say that you are incapable and unworthy of salvation. Very true! I am just as incapable and helpless. This is the core of Christian doctrine regarding justification: we do not deserve it in the least. So why in the world do you claim that we must do works to maintain something that we do not deserve in the first place?

When the Bible says, The just shall live by faith, why do you argue faith+works? Why are we to ever try and keep our salvation of our own power through our own filthy rags? We can't, so why must we do works to be justified? We can't. Therefore, we must simply believe in the Lord Jesus Christ with a child-like faith.

I hope equally as much that the Holy Spirit brings recognition to you.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes we should live godly lives, not to get eternal life, but because we are now eternal beings. We just happen to still have a body of flesh. But, as I like to tell the people at my church, most of whom are older than I am right now at 54 years, "My life isn't even half over, I am going to live forever, so are you".


This is a one time thing. Each single sin we commit grieves the Holy Spirit.

OK. since FG2 didn't answer about the grieving of the Holy Spirit, I'll tell you this...
If we grieve the Holy Spirit once, God will forgive us if we ask Him to. Everybody sins, as in 1 John 1 and 2.

If we continually grieve the Holy Spirit, then I'd have to ask if the Holy Spirit and sin can live in the same body. If we return to a life of sin, HOW can the Holy Spirit remain in us? Sin and the Holy Spirit cannot live in the same space which is why we're admonished throughout the N.T. to live godly lives.
The consequences are harsh leading to loss of salvation.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes, I know that.


What they can't relate is the nuance of the grammar.


I didn't say it wasn't. But with a good textbook, it can be understood.


Have I mentioned John 10:28?

This is a very straightforward and simple statement about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

If you don't believe that, please explain to me how it isn't that.


lol


OK, you've made a claim. Now, prove it with actual examples. Or we'll all know your claims are empty.

Yes. You're good at putting persons on the defensive,unfortunately it won't work with me.

 

[Call me Nic]

OK. since FG2 didn't answer about the grieving of the Holy Spirit, I'll tell you this...
If we grieve the Holy Spirit once, God will forgive us if we ask Him to. Everybody sins, as in 1 John 1 and 2.

If we continually grieve the Holy Spirit, then I'd have to ask if the Holy Spirit and sin can live in the same body. If we return to a life of sin, HOW can the Holy Spirit remain in us? Sin and the Holy Spirit cannot live in the same space which is why we're admonished throughout the N.T. to live godly lives.
The consequences are harsh leading to loss of salvation.

This is how. It's simple.

Romans 8:10 - "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

 

[GodsGrace101]

That's odd when you have no interest in learning Greek.
Belief in a interpolated false teaching doesn't save.

Absolutely! And perhaps one day you'll release the twisted version and trust what Jesus taught and died to seal as eternal truth.

Again.
Arguing with no scripture.

 

[Call me Nic]

OK. since FG2 didn't answer about the grieving of the Holy Spirit, I'll tell you this...
If we grieve the Holy Spirit once, God will forgive us if we ask Him to. Everybody sins, as in 1 John 1 and 2.

If we continually grieve the Holy Spirit, then I'd have to ask if the Holy Spirit and sin can live in the same body. If we return to a life of sin, HOW can the Holy Spirit remain in us? Sin and the Holy Spirit cannot live in the same space which is why we're admonished throughout the N.T. to live godly lives.
The consequences are harsh leading to loss of salvation.

The body is not what makes it to heaven. We all die physically because the sins we commit after becoming saved are accounted unto our flesh, but our spirit is quickened through faith. This is, in other words, the seal - once our spirit becomes quickened (raised to life) by the holy Spirit, sin can no longer be accounted unto it, and instead, all the sins we commit are accounted unto our body because those who are born of God do not commit sin (1 John 5:17), but this is only in regards to our spirit. Because our body continues to serve the law of sin, even though we serve the law of God on the inner man (Romans 7:25).

 

[GodsGrace101]

This is how. It's simple.

Romans 8:10 - "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

Now we're getting to the truth...

This is what I posted:

If we grieve the Holy Spirit once, God will forgive us if we ask Him to. Everybody sins, as in 1 John 1 and 2.

If we continually grieve the Holy Spirit, then I'd have to ask if the Holy Spirit and sin can live in the same body. If we return to a life of sin, HOW can the Holy Spirit remain in us? Sin and the Holy Spirit cannot live in the same space which is why we're admonished throughout the N.T. to live godly lives.
The consequences are harsh leading to loss of salvation.
post no. 672

To which you answered the above, here:
This is how, it's simple...
Romans 8:10 - "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

So, IOW, what you're saying is that I could sin all I want to and still be saved because of Romans 8:10.
And THIS is where OSAS brings us. We can sin and live a life of sin and still be saved because you don't understand scripture or are willing to believe that salvation can be lost.

BTW, Did you also read:
Romans 12:1-2
Romans 11:20-22
Romans 13:8-13
Romans 14:17-18

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

Again.
Arguing with no scripture.

Again, that's because when someone denies the scriptures already posted by myself and others, evidencing a determination to assail or ignore the truth, it is a waste of time to repeat the same behavior, posting scripture, expecting a different result; accepting what Jesus actually taught and died to seal for all time.
Works salvation argument teachings insist that salvation in Christ is temporary, not eternal. Christ never said that.

The following bold italicized text is excerpted from this source. Hey look! Scriptures aplenty! And offered for those who may be here at this site seeking to find the truth of God in Christ's teachings.

"In John 10:28-30, Jesus says: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." The forgiveness of God through Christ is sufficient to cover all of our sins -- past, present, and future. There is nothing a person can do that God cannot forgive. This doctrine is supported by Romans 8:38-39, Ephesians 4:30, and Jude 24; among others."


If people could work to save themselves Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross. People would just have to labor and hope to have done enough while alive to save themselves. And then when they're about to die they'd worry perhaps they'd not done enough to enter Heaven. And would have to concede then that they'll find out, one way or the other as to their fate, when they're dead.
That's not scripture. There is no such scripture. But there is argument in that regard. And it's faithful are eternally wrong.

"Scriptural passages (Ephesians 2:8-9, Isaiah 64:6) indicate that our attempts at good deeds will never earn us a place in heaven. We cannot make up for our past, present, or future sins by doing good works. A saved believer will, as a natural product of their faith, shun sin and practice good works (James 2:18). If “once saved, always saved” is not true, then by necessity we are saved both by our faith and our works. If we can do sinful things, or not do good things (James 4:17) and lose our security, then our good deeds are a part of our salvation. This concept is contradictory to Scripture. It also creates an unlivable scenario where we have to try to do enough good to outweigh our sinful natures. The doctrine of “eternal security” goes hand in hand with the doctrine of “saved by faith alone.” To deny eternal security is to endorse a “faith plus works” salvation system. "

 

[Call me Nic]

Now we're getting to the truth...

This is what I posted:

If we grieve the Holy Spirit once, God will forgive us if we ask Him to. Everybody sins, as in 1 John 1 and 2.

If we continually grieve the Holy Spirit, then I'd have to ask if the Holy Spirit and sin can live in the same body. If we return to a life of sin, HOW can the Holy Spirit remain in us? Sin and the Holy Spirit cannot live in the same space which is why we're admonished throughout the N.T. to live godly lives.
The consequences are harsh leading to loss of salvation.
post no. 672

To which you answered the above, here:
This is how, it's simple...
Romans 8:10 - "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

So, IOW, what you're saying is that I could sin all I want to and still be saved because of Romans 8:10.
And THIS is where OSAS brings us. We can sin and live a life of sin and still be saved because you don't understand scripture or are willing to believe that salvation can be lost.

BTW, Did you also read:
Romans 12:1-2
Romans 11:20-22
Romans 13:8-13
Romans 14:17-18

Oh I understand scripture. You just don't believe the promises of God when it is point blank said that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:38-39), that those who believe on Jesus Christ have passed from death into life (John 5:24), and that God can't lie and promised everlasting (unending) life from before the world to all those who would believe on his Son (Titus 1:2). You are essentially calling God a liar, because he promised eternal life through his Son. Eternal means forever, everlasting means unending. God didn't attach any conditions to this. There is not a single verse in the Bible that says you can lose your salvation. Now, you CAN lose your life on earth - God can kill you as a punishment, but in regards to eternity, once you're saved, it's a done deal. It's irrevocable. I'm not advocating sinning as you please, because that's dangerous - you will be swiftly punished on earth by the Father in heaven - but God will never take away your ETERNAL life, because that would make God a liar.

It's like if you gave me a book and said I could have it forever, but 5 years down the road I made you mad and you came and took it from me - that makes you a liar. It's the same idea.

You just don't believe God and what he clearly says.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The body is not what makes it to heaven. We all die physically because the sins we commit after becoming saved are accounted unto our flesh, but our spirit is quickened through faith. This is, in other words, the seal - once our spirit becomes quickened (raised to life) by the holy Spirit, sin can no longer be accounted unto it, and instead, all the sins we commit are accounted unto our body because those who are born of God do not commit sin (1 John 5:17), but this is only in regards to our spirit. Because our body continues to serve the law of sin, even though we serve the law of God on the inner man (Romans 7:25).

Please read the book of Romans again!


Romans 3:8
Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, "Let us do evil that good may result?" Their condemnation is deserved!


Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? By no means!

And see,
1 Peter 2:16
16Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.