Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[Call me Nic]

Jesus says we are saved by by believing. This is true but He never says we are saved by only believing. He also gives examples of believers who believe who won’t be saved and gives stipulation for receiving salvation like the ones I posted. The verses I quoted are undeniable. They are clearly examples of “believers” who will not be saved. This is exactly why we must compile all of the Bible’s teachings to formulate a doctrine. It cannot be based solely on single passages from the Bible. It must coincide with all of the scriptures to be a sound doctrine. The doctrine of faith alone does not coincide with the scriptures I presented. These scriptures aren’t coming from my own thoughts these are the word of God and must be taken into consideration. Like I said before you can choose to believe in faith alone and risk misleading others and jeopardizing your salvation but what if your wrong? If your wrong and you don’t receive salvation because your faith didn’t produce fruit and repentance there’s no turning back. Now what if I’m wrong? I’m teaching that not only believing is required but also walking in the Spirit until we die. If I’m wrong and only believing is required I will still be saved because I do put my trust in Jesus as my Lord and Savior. So why take the risk of being wrong and teaching people that they don’t have to be born again? They don’t have to repent and do good works? Jesus specifically says that people who don’t do these things will not be saved. These teachings can only apply to believers because no matter how much a person repents and how much fruit they produce if they don’t believe they will not be forgiven and not be saved.

Where does Jesus say that if we don't do good works, we aren't saved?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Brother, you could argue and prove your case 100x over, but there are still going to be those that are going to wiggle out of seeing the truth of scripture. It's because of their presuppositions, not because they necessarily want to believe what the Bible actually says.

I disagree brother Nicolas my quotes are from the Bible and they are clearly giving examples of people who will not be saved. This includes believers. It is not by works that we are saved but by a faith that produces works. This is exactly what James 2 is talking about. I do believe what the Bible says but I believe all of it not just bits and pieces brother.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where does Jesus say that if we don't do good works, we aren't saved?

I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

John 15:1-6

Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 3:10

 

[Call me Nic]

I disagree brother Nicolas my quotes are from the Bible and they are clearly giving examples of people who will not be saved. This includes believers. It is not by works that we are saved but by a faith that produces works. This is exactly what James 2 is talking about. I do believe what the Bible says but I believe all of it not just bits and pieces brother.

James wrote his Epistle to people who were already saved, and the context of James 2 is not of justification before God, but justification before men, based upon a man's works.

James is not saying one time that works give salvation, but that a man cannot know that another man is saved unless that other man proves it through works - it has nothing to do with justification before God.

We know this because in verse 14, the passage begins about "faith being dead without works," but notice how it never talks about justification before God. James is saying it's not profitable (not good, not expedient) for a man to simply have faith, because that faith does nothing for anybody else.

James 2:18 - "Yea, a MAN MAY SAY, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." Clearly, this is a conversation between two men, where one man proves his faith by works, whereas the other man only has faith. Again, nothing to do with justification before God.

NOTICE: the only passage in this chapter that talks about justification before God is verse 23, which says, "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God." It did not say that the works Abraham did (in offering his son) was justification before God, but rather than Abraham was justified before God for his faith, but justified before men by his works. This is what James is talking about.

We know this because when we compare scripture with scripture, looking to Romans 4, Paul says this: Romans 4:2-4 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; BUT NOT BEFORE GOD. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Paul makes the statement here that Abraham's work gave him reason to glory, but NOT before God, because Abraham was never justified by his works before God (this is talking about salvation); and he makes the point that anyone (like you) who seeks to work for justification before God works of debt and not of grace, which frustrates the grace of God through Jesus Christ.

Paul and James do not contradict each other, because they are speaking in different contexts and making separate points. If you say that we must work to be justified and not simply believe, then you are claiming the Bible contradicts itself in James 2 and Romans 4 (which it doesn't), and if you believe it contradicts itself, you don't believe the testimony of God - and that is wicked heresy.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where does Jesus say that if we don't do good works, we aren't saved?

Brother keep in mind that not only Jesus’ words are from God.

“What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do? So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless. Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.” You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless? Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone. Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road. Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-26

“But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed. For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment. And God did not spare the ancient world—except for Noah and the seven others in his family. Noah warned the world of God’s righteous judgment. So God protected Noah when he destroyed the world of ungodly people with a vast flood. Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to ungodly people. But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him. Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was tormented in his soul by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day. So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials, even while keeping the wicked under punishment until the day of final judgment. He is especially hard on those who follow their own twisted sexual desire, and who despise authority. These people are proud and arrogant, daring even to scoff at supernatural beings without so much as trembling. But the angels, who are far greater in power and strength, do not dare to bring from the Lord a charge of blasphemy against those supernatural beings. These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed. Their destruction is their reward for the harm they have done. They love to indulge in evil pleasures in broad daylight. They are a disgrace and a stain among you. They delight in deception even as they eat with you in your fellowship meals. They commit adultery with their eyes, and their desire for sin is never satisfied. They lure unstable people into sin, and they are well trained in greed. They live under God’s curse. They have wandered off the right road and followed the footsteps of Balaam son of Beor, who loved to earn money by doing wrong. But Balaam was stopped from his mad course when his donkey rebuked him with a human voice. These people are as useless as dried-up springs or as mist blown away by the wind. They are doomed to blackest darkness. They brag about themselves with empty, foolish boasting. With an appeal to twisted sexual desires, they lure back into sin those who have barely escaped from a lifestyle of deception. They promise freedom, but they themselves are slaves of sin and corruption. For you are a slave to whatever controls you. And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before. It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life. They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.” And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.””
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-22

 

[Call me Nic]

“But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed. For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment. And God did not spare the ancient world—except for Noah and the seven others in his family. Noah warned the world of God’s righteous judgment. So God protected Noah when he destroyed the world of ungodly people with a vast flood. Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to ungodly people. But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him. Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was tormented in his soul by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day. So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials, even while keeping the wicked under punishment until the day of final judgment. He is especially hard on those who follow their own twisted sexual desire, and who despise authority. These people are proud and arrogant, daring even to scoff at supernatural beings without so much as trembling. But the angels, who are far greater in power and strength, do not dare to bring from the Lord a charge of blasphemy against those supernatural beings. These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed. Their destruction is their reward for the harm they have done. They love to indulge in evil pleasures in broad daylight. They are a disgrace and a stain among you. They delight in deception even as they eat with you in your fellowship meals. They commit adultery with their eyes, and their desire for sin is never satisfied. They lure unstable people into sin, and they are well trained in greed. They live under God’s curse. They have wandered off the right road and followed the footsteps of Balaam son of Beor, who loved to earn money by doing wrong. But Balaam was stopped from his mad course when his donkey rebuked him with a human voice. These people are as useless as dried-up springs or as mist blown away by the wind. They are doomed to blackest darkness. They brag about themselves with empty, foolish boasting. With an appeal to twisted sexual desires, they lure back into sin those who have barely escaped from a lifestyle of deception. They promise freedom, but they themselves are slaves of sin and corruption. For you are a slave to whatever controls you. And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before. It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life. They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.” And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.””
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-22

What does this have to do with justification? Peter is warning against false prophets and wicked teachers in this passage, not talking about justification/salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

James wrote his Epistle to people who were already saved, and the context of James 2 is not of justification before God, but justification before men, based upon a man's works.

James is not saying one time that works give salvation, but that a man cannot know that another man is saved unless that other man proves it through works - it has nothing to do with justification before God.

We know this because in verse 14, the passage begins about "faith being dead without works," but notice how it never talks about justification before God. James is saying it's not profitable (not good, not expedient) for a man to simply have faith, because that faith does nothing for anybody else.

James 2:18 - "Yea, a MAN MAY SAY, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." Clearly, this is a conversation between two men, where one man proves his faith by works, whereas the other man only has faith. Again, nothing to do with justification before God.

NOTICE: the only passage in this chapter that talks about justification before God is verse 23, which says, "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God." It did not say that the works Abraham did (in offering his son) was justification before God, but rather than Abraham was justified before God for his faith, but justified before men by his works. This is what James is talking about.

We know this because when we compare scripture with scripture, looking to Romans 4, Paul says this: Romans 4:2-4 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; BUT NOT BEFORE GOD. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Paul makes the statement here that Abraham's work gave him reason to glory, but NOT before God, because Abraham was never justified by his works before God (this is talking about salvation); and he makes the point that anyone (like you) who seeks to work for justification before God works of debt and not of grace, which frustrates the grace of God through Jesus Christ.

Paul and James do not contradict each other, because they are speaking in different contexts and making separate points. If you say that we must work to be justified and not simply believe, then you are claiming the Bible contradicts itself in James 2 and Romans 4 (which it doesn't), and if you believe it contradicts itself, you don't believe the testimony of God - and that is wicked heresy.

Absolutely Abraham was not saved by works he was saved by having a genuine faith. A faith that produced works. You only quoted half of verse 14. Notice James 2:14

“What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14

Another example

“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19-20

Brother do you know that the word faith is translated from the Greek word pistis which means to believe and to have faithfulness and fidelity?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus says we are saved by by believing. This is true but He never says we are saved by only believing.

Yes He did. John 3:15,16 5:24, 6:47.

Where did Jesus say anything about believing plus anything else?

He also gives examples of believers who believe who won’t be saved and gives stipulation for receiving salvation like the ones I posted.

No He didn't. But go ahead and provide any verse you think He did.

The verses I quoted are undeniable.

Actually, all verses are undeniable. But many are simply not understood.

For example, Jesus told us in plain words that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

But your view is that saved people (those who have received eternal life) may perish, if they don't meet certain conditions AFTER receiving eternal life.

They are clearly examples of “believers” who will not be saved.

There are none, if Jesus was telling the truth in John 10:28 about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

This is exactly why we must compile all of the Bible’s teachings to formulate a doctrine. It cannot be based solely on single passages from the Bible.

Do you really believe a FACT is changed by any other verse? I don't.

It must coincide with all of the scriptures to be a sound doctrine.

I have been faithful to explain EVERY verse provided that the poster thinks shows loss of salvation. And in every case, I've explained what they DO teach, which isn't loss of salvation, but warnings of painful discipline in this life, loss of blessings, and/or loss of rewards. All of which are taught in the Bible.

It seems the OSNAS crowd just wants God to send to hell those believers who rebel. I know that's what they'd do, if they were in charge. But then, there's no grace at all in the view that salvation can be lost

So what is really claimed is salvation by grace, but kept by works.

The doctrine of faith alone does not coincide with the scriptures I presented.

I've shown otherwise.

These scriptures aren’t coming from my own thoughts these are the word of God and must be taken into consideration.

Paul told Timothy to "study to show yourself approved of God, a workman not ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth" in 2 Tim 2:15.

Those who peddle loss of salvation should be ashamed of what they peddle.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What does this have to do with justification? Peter is warning against false prophets and wicked teachers in this passage, not talking about justification/salvation.

I will repost it with bold letters on the parts that I’m trying to convey. But keep in mind the gateway to heaven is narrow. If we are saved by simply believing without repentance and producing fruit how much wider can the gateway to heaven actually get? Simply believing doesn’t require any actions or any effort at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I disagree brother Nicolas my quotes are from the Bible and they are clearly giving examples of people who will not be saved. This includes believers.

This opinion is a presumption as well.

It is not by works that we are saved but by a faith that produces works.

And yet you've no verses that support your presumption.

We are commanded to do good works.

This is exactly what James 2 is talking about.

Just more presumption. James was admonishing believing (saved) Jews to demonstrate their faith so others could see it.

iow, live out your faith.

I do believe what the Bible says but I believe all of it not just bits and pieces brother.

No you don't.

You believe that salvation involves works, which is more than faith.

Jesus taught that on the BASIS of believing, the believer HAS eternal life. But you don't believe this.

So, based on your theology, WHEN specifically will Jesus give eternal life to anyone?

 

[BNR32FAN]

What does this have to do with justification? Peter is warning against false prophets and wicked teachers in this passage, not talking about justification/salvation.

“But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed. For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment. And God did not spare the ancient world—except for Noah and the seven others in his family. Noah warned the world of God’s righteous judgment. So God protected Noah when he destroyed the world of ungodly people with a vast flood. Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to ungodly people. But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him. Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was tormented in his soul by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day. So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials, even while keeping the wicked under punishment until the day of final judgment. He is especially hard on those who follow their own twisted sexual desire, and who despise authority. These people are proud and arrogant, daring even to scoff at supernatural beings without so much as trembling. But the angels, who are far greater in power and strength, do not dare to bring from the Lord a charge of blasphemy against those supernatural beings. These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed. Their destruction is their reward for the harm they have done. They love to indulge in evil pleasures in broad daylight. They are a disgrace and a stain among you. They delight in deception even as they eat with you in your fellowship meals. They commit adultery with their eyes, and their desire for sin is never satisfied. They lure unstable people into sin, and they are well trained in greed. They live under God’s curse. They have wandered off the right road and followed the footsteps of Balaam son of Beor, who loved to earn money by doing wrong. But Balaam was stopped from his mad course when his donkey rebuked him with a human voice. These people are as useless as dried-up springs or as mist blown away by the wind. They are doomed to blackest darkness. They brag about themselves with empty, foolish boasting. With an appeal to twisted sexual desires, they lure back into sin those who have barely escaped from a lifestyle of deception. They promise freedom, but they themselves are slaves of sin and corruption. For you are a slave to whatever controls you. And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before. It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life. They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.” And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.””
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-22

Im not going to highlight in bold letters because I’d have to highlight pretty much this entire chapter. If someone is saved by faith alone then this entire chapter is useless. What a person does in their life is completely irrelevant if faith alone is true.

 

[Call me Nic]

Absolutely Abraham was not saved by works he was saved by having a genuine faith. A faith that produced works. You only quoted half of verse 14. Notice James 2:14

“What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14

But what do the following verses say after that? Who is being saved, and why wouldn't faith save him?

It's not salvation before God, because the following verses say:

James 2:15-16 "If a BROTHER or SISTER (is he talking about a man and God here? No, he's talking about a man between his brethren), be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body, WHAT DOTH IT PROFIT?" James is the making the point that faith is not good if there are no works, because you do nothing to help the brethren or those truly in need. Can faith save him? Can it save his brethren? Or will they go hungry and not be clothed despite that man's faith?

Which is why James says, James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." Dead to who? Dead to God? NO. Dead to other people.

Understand? Faithfulness and fidelity are all in regards to believing, I agree. And that's what the Lord says "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31).

The Bible never requires us to have works and faith, it's only faith.

Romans 4:5 - "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by GRACE are ye SAVED through FAITH, and that NOT of YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God; NOT OF WORKS, lest any man (like yourself) should boast."

Doing good works is not a requirement for salvation, but the Bible teaches nonetheless that we were created in Jesus Christ to do good works (Ephesians 2:10), to glorify the Lord and to be the light on a hill, and the salt of the earth. But regarding salvation, all we must do is do the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21), and what is the will of the Father? To believe on Jesus Christ. John 6:38-40.

 

[Call me Nic]

“But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed. For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment. And God did not spare the ancient world—except for Noah and the seven others in his family. Noah warned the world of God’s righteous judgment. So God protected Noah when he destroyed the world of ungodly people with a vast flood. Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to ungodly people. But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him. Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was tormented in his soul by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day. So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials, even while keeping the wicked under punishment until the day of final judgment. He is especially hard on those who follow their own twisted sexual desire, and who despise authority. These people are proud and arrogant, daring even to scoff at supernatural beings without so much as trembling. But the angels, who are far greater in power and strength, do not dare to bring from the Lord a charge of blasphemy against those supernatural beings. These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed. Their destruction is their reward for the harm they have done. They love to indulge in evil pleasures in broad daylight. They are a disgrace and a stain among you. They delight in deception even as they eat with you in your fellowship meals. They commit adultery with their eyes, and their desire for sin is never satisfied. They lure unstable people into sin, and they are well trained in greed. They live under God’s curse. They have wandered off the right road and followed the footsteps of Balaam son of Beor, who loved to earn money by doing wrong. But Balaam was stopped from his mad course when his donkey rebuked him with a human voice. These people are as useless as dried-up springs or as mist blown away by the wind. They are doomed to blackest darkness. They brag about themselves with empty, foolish boasting. With an appeal to twisted sexual desires, they lure back into sin those who have barely escaped from a lifestyle of deception. They promise freedom, but they themselves are slaves of sin and corruption. For you are a slave to whatever controls you. And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before. It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life. They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.” And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.””
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-22

Im not going to highlight in bold letters because I’d have to highlight pretty much this entire chapter. If someone is saved by faith alone then this entire chapter is useless. What a person does in their life is completely irrelevant if faith alone is true.

The people Peter is talking about here are not even saved in the first place - THEY DON'T BELIEVE ON CHRIST. He is talking about false teachers, and for believers to be wary of them. We know this because he says they came unto the "knowledge of Christ" which means: they heard about Christ and were presented the Gospel. But what happened? They didn't get saved because they chose not to believe on Christ after having come unto knowledge of him. They rejected him! It has nothing to do with works.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes He did. John 3:15,16 5:24, 6:47.

Where did Jesus say anything about believing plus anything else?


No He didn't. But go ahead and provide any verse you think He did.


Actually, all verses are undeniable. But many are simply not understood.

For example, Jesus told us in plain words that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

But your view is that saved people (those who have received eternal life) may perish, if they don't meet certain conditions AFTER receiving eternal life.


There are none, if Jesus was telling the truth in John 10:28 about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.


Do you really believe a FACT is changed by any other verse? I don't.


I have been faithful to explain EVERY verse provided that the poster thinks shows loss of salvation. And in every case, I've explained what they DO teach, which isn't loss of salvation, but warnings of painful discipline in this life, loss of blessings, and/or loss of rewards. All of which are taught in the Bible.

It seems the OSNAS crowd just wants God to send to hell those believers who rebel. I know that's what they'd do, if they were in charge. But then, there's no grace at all in the view that salvation can be lost

So what is really claimed is salvation by grace, but kept by works.


I've shown otherwise.


Paul told Timothy to "study to show yourself approved of God, a workman not ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth" in 2 Tim 2:15.

Those who peddle loss of salvation should be ashamed of what they peddle.

I’m not wasting my time explaining to you anymore. I’ve done that for a month now. I will reply to brother Nicolas and others not to you. Sorry.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I will repost it with bold letters on the parts that I’m trying to convey. But keep in mind the gateway to heaven is narrow. If we are saved by simply believing without repentance and producing fruit how much wider can the gateway to heaven actually get? Simply believing doesn’t require any actions or any effort at all.

On our part, EXACTLY!! That is what grace is all about. Trusting in the WORK of CHRIST alone for our salvation.

But you don't believe that, obviously. Because you don't understand grace.

Grace is all about what Christ already DID for us. And NOTHING about what we can or will do for Him.

It is only after we are saved by grace through faith that we are commanded to do good works. Which is what we are elected for anyway.

The notion that one is saved by a combination of believing and works is false.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I’m not wasting my time explaining to you anymore. I’ve done that for a month now. I will reply to brother Nicolas and others not to you. Sorry.

Don't be sorry. Just know that your views have been refuted from Scripture.

 

[Call me Nic]

I’m not wasting my time explaining to you anymore. I’ve done that for a month now. I will reply to brother Nicolas and others not to you. Sorry.

You won't have better luck with me, because you're wrong according to what scripture says. And I won't back down on the truth.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But what do the following verses say after that? Who is being saved, and why wouldn't faith save him?

It's not salvation before God, because the following verses say:

James 2:15-16 "If a BROTHER or SISTER (is he talking about a man and God here? No, he's talking about a man between his brethren), be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body, WHAT DOTH IT PROFIT?" James is the making the point that faith is not good if there are no works, because you do nothing to help the brethren or those truly in need. Can faith save him? Can it save his brethren? Or will they go hungry and not be clothed despite that man's faith?

Which is why James says, James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." Dead to who? Dead to God? NO. Dead to other people.

Understand? Faithfulness and fidelity are all in regards to believing, I agree. And that's what the Lord says "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31).

The Bible never requires us to have works and faith, it's only faith.

Romans 4:5 - "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by GRACE are ye SAVED through FAITH, and that NOT of YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God; NOT OF WORKS, lest any man (like yourself) should boast."

Doing good works is not a requirement for salvation, but the Bible teaches nonetheless that we were created in Jesus Christ to do good works (Ephesians 2:10), to glorify the Lord and to be the light on a hill, and the salt of the earth. But regarding salvation, all we must do is do the will of the Father (Matthew 7:22), and what is the will of the Father? To believe on Jesus Christ. John 6:38-40.

Verse 14 says what doth it profit then it says can’t that kind of faith save a person? The key words are “that kind of faith” indicating a faith that is apart from a saving faith. Hence a dead and useless faith. A saving faith is not dead and useless brother. It is this saving type of faith that produces repentance and fruit out of our obedience to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If faith alone is true then walking in the Spirit and being born again is not required. What did Jesus say to Nicodemus that he must do to be saved?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Brothers just pray for guidance and keep searching the scriptures you will find the truth I guarantee it. I will also pray for you. God bless you both.

 

[Call me Nic]

Verse 14 says what doth it profit then it says can’t that kind of faith save a person? The key words are “that kind of faith” indicating a faith that is apart from a saving faith. Hence a dead and useless faith. A saving faith is not dead and useless brother. It is this saving type of faith that produces repentance and fruit out of our obedience to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If faith alone is true then walking in the Spirit and being born again is not required. What did Jesus say to Nicodemus that he must do to be saved?

My Bible (the KJV) says "Can faith save him?" Faith in general, not any particular kind of faith, because faith is faith.

Secondly, Jesus said that a man must be born again to enter into the kingdom of God. And how is a man born again (that is, born of God)?

1 John 5:1 "WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST IS BORN OF GOD."

Checkmate.