Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[LoveofTruth]

Everything you claim and assume is refuted directly and clearly in John 10:28, where Jesus taught that He is the CAUSE of anyone having eternal life, and never perishing is the EFFECT of having eternal life.

Therefore, on the basis of being given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

You speak of a cause and an effect but you miss the CONDITION, which is that they must believe the gospel, and the ongoing condition is "if" they keep in memory" the gospel. (1 Cor 15:2 KJV)

Jesus also give a condition to remaining with him and it is to abide in him and he in believers. if a man does not continue to believe. Jesus said they fall away Luke 8. To fall away here is to fall away from their belief, and their belief showed they were saved for a while. As we read in the previous verse in Luke 8, which says lest they should "believe and be saved". You seem to miss this condition. It is to continue in the faith and not be moved away from the hope. Christ in you is the hope. So to be removed from him and from the hope is to be removed from the hope of salvation.

John 10:28 goes directly with other verses in John about eternal life is given to those who believe . If they believe not or only for a "while believe" then they do not secure eternal life in them. Jesus Christ is that eternal life and he will only abide in a person as they abide in him through continual belief.

So Jesus was not lying in John 10:28. Eternal life is promised to those who Let the word abide in them and if that word remains in them then and only then can they continue in the Son and in the father and then, and only then do they have the promise of eternal life as scripture clearly teaches to the unbiased reader.

"24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."( 1John 2:24,25 KJV)

To continue in the Son and in the father is eternal life, not simply fellowship as you understand fellowship. The true fellowship (partnership, sharer with and participation in Greek) is in the light of Christ and with the Son and the Father. If a person does not let the word of God abide in them and continue in that word and if that word does not remain in them, then they do not continue in eternal life which is to continue in the Son and in the Father they have no fellowship with them and they do not know them.

John is very clear in 1 John wen Jesus speaks through him and says that if a man says he is in the light and walks in darkness he lies and does not the truth. If he says he is in the light and then hates his brother he no longer had eternal life abiding (remaining or continuing) in him.

These are plain to see to the unbiased reader.

 

[Ronald]

Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

1. Judas once belonged to the Father and was given to Jesus. Jesus said this when he was speaking of the twelve apostles in John 17,

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6


“Thine they were”, past tense, Judas was included in that.


2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;


“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples”

Matthew 10:1

Notice first, that all twelves of the disciples were “HIS”. They all belonged to Jesus, and none of them belonged to the devil at this time. Matthew did not lie when he wrote this, Nor was Jesus ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).


3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, Judas included,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.


4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.


5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,


“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...”

Matthew 10:5

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14


Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.


6. Judas freely received and could cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, so he could also freely give as well.

“And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7,8

This shows that he was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.


“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.


7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him. Judas was as a sheep amidst wolves, showing that Judas wasn't a wolf then.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this


8. Judas had the peace of God to give to others, this was spoken to the twelve, Judas included,

“...let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.” Matthew 10:13


9. He also had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him, spoken to the twelve Judas included,

“For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” Matthew 10:20

10. Judas belonged to the household of Jesus, as we read here spoken to the twelve Judas included.

“them of his household?” Matthew 10:25


11. Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus once and was trusted by Jesus,

“ Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Psalms 41:9

Jesus told us that Psalm 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ John 13:8

This proves that Judas was not always a devil or thief as some say. He was once trusted and a familiar friend of Jesus.

Jesus does not call devils familiar friends, and he does not trust them.


12. He was blotted out of the book of life. In Acts 1 we read,

“concerning Judas...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.... For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Acts 1:16-20

The Psalm mentioned here, refers to Judas,

“Let their habitation be desolate... Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” Psalms 69:25,28

He was once in the book of life with the righteous and then blotted out. So he was once saved and had eternal life then lost it.


13. He fell by transgression, showing that he was not always fallen. But rather that he fell at a certain point in time. And he fell by transgression, it was his own will and choice.

“That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell “ Acts 1:25


14. He betrayed Jesus at a certain point in time,

“Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.” “Matthew 26:48


To “betray”, means to once have the trust and to go against that trust, as Judas did. He could not have betrayed that trust if he was always a devil. Because Jesus doesn’t trust devils.

Near the end of Jesus ministry he said Judas was a devil, but this he spoke of Judas who should betray him, future tense. We read about this near the end of Jesus ministry in John 6:71. And “then Satan entered into him.” Luke 22:3, this , was at the end of Jesus ministry not at the beginning as we saw already.

So Judas fell away and lost his salvation.


so to sum up just some of the points

1. Judas Belonged to the Father before given to Jesus
2. Judas was a disciple of Jesus at the beginning
3. Judas was an apostle
4. Judas was a a sheep sent to the lost sheep
5. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead heal the sick ( and satan cannot cast put Satan as jesus said)
6. Judas had the peace of God to give
7. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted
8. Judas had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed
9. Judas was written in the book of life once
10. Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out

This event in Matthew and Mark and other places is describing an event that started before Jesus died on the cross Jesus told them not to go to the gentiles or samaritans in another place and so this was not after the resurrection. Although some principles can apply to all who are sent out for all times. This was an actual event were they went out and cast ou deals etc. We read about this story in Luke as well where Jesus sent men out to cast out devils etc and they cam back and rejoiced that the devils were subject unto them and jesus said don't rejoice in this but that their names were written in the Lambs bok of life. This shows that they were saved before the cross and yet many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him n John 6:66. This shows that some of those whom were once in the book of life went away and lost salvation.

Wow, you wasted a lot of effort in trying to prove Judas was saved. But he was not. Disciple means student. They were given to the Lord for a purpose and Judas purpose was already known - someone had to betray Jesus.
#1. LISTEN, NONE OF THE DISCIPLES WERE SAVED BEFORE JESUS DIED AND ROSE ON THE THIRD DAY. None of them believed that Jesus died for their sins yet. The Disciples believed after He rose and especially when they saw Him.
#2. Satan came into Judas and possessed him to betray Jesus. This was part of the plan. But here is another very important principal. Christians cannot be possessed by Satan. So how ever much Judas believed in the miracles, or even loved Jesus, he had ulterior motives.
Some views say Judas was impatient for Christ to take his throne (ignorant to the fact that it was not His purpose to become King at the time) and so Judas thought if Jesus was captured, he would speed up the process and become King. And with all this taught about going away, where I go, you can't come, etc., also made them anxious and confused. Then when he found out that they planned on crucifying Him, he felt guilt, threw the money back and hung himself. If he was saved, would he betray Jesus and commit suicide?

 

[LoveofTruth]

I just responded to EVERY so-called example of passages that teach loss of salvation. I hope you've paid attention to HOW to refute someone else.

You sound a bit high minded here

and you ddn't refute anything I wrote and you proved nothing. The examples of Adam and Eve from the very beginning I did not see any response. maybe its somewhere I haven't found it yet.

But all your attempts to explain each example away are full of error. The text speak for themselves. You assume to much

So, I'm not going to bother to do this with this post. There is no point.

.

another cop out answer.

I believe you cannot answer them to disprove what I showed in the text. Go ahead and try.

I believe you cannot deal with these points as you did not deal with the points I made from Adam and Eve and on. Each one of your attempts can be easily shown to be in error.Just trying to find time to respond. It is not difficult to respond to your answers but it does take time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You speak of a cause and an effect but you miss the CONDITION, which is that they must believe the gospel, and the ongoing condition is "if" they keep in memory" the gospel. (1 Cor 15:2 KJV)

No, what you keep doing is ADDING conditions where Jesus didn't in John 10:28.

Jesus taught that on the basis of being given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

Would you do me a favor, and at least recognize the statement in red above, and then address the statement? If you disagree, please show how Jesus didn't really mean that by what He did say.

John 10:28 goes directly with other verses in John about eternal life is given to those who believe .

When Jesus said, "I give THEM eternal life", it is clear to the student of the Word (2 Tim 2:15) that He only means believers. That is a given. So there is no need to mention the condition for receiving eternal life.

The point of John 10:28 isn't about the condition for receiving eternal life.

The point is about the CAUSE of having it. Which is Jesus Himself, as I've pointed out repeatedly. I guess you're not really reading my posts very carefully.

Then, after stating that He is the CAUSE of having eternal life, He made the point that the EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing.

So the 'condition' for being a recipient isn't in view in His statement. It's clearly implied by the FACT that He is giving eternal life to "them". It could be no other than believers, His sheep. Not "the" sheep, but His sheep alone.

If they believe not or only for a "while believe" then they do not secure eternal life in them.

If that were true, then Jesus would have certainly included that point in His statement, but He didn't. You, sir, are ADDING conditions where Jesus DIDN'T. Please cease.

[QUORTE] Jesus Christ is that eternal life and he will only abide in a person as they abide in him through continual belief.[/QUOTE]
Your own opinion has not been shown in Scripture.

So Jesus was not lying in John 10:28.

Of course He wasn't. But by your ADDING to Scripture to what isn't IN Scripture, you've made Him out to be a liar. By NOT mentioning any conditions, His statement cannot be true if there ARE conditions for recipients to meet in order to not perish.

How can you not grasp this important fact.

Eternal life is promised to those who Let the word abide in them and if that word remains in them then and only then can they continue in the Son and in the father and then, and only then do they have the promise of eternal life as scripture clearly teaches to the unbiased reader.[/QOUTE]
Only a very biased reader would agree with your claim here.

Eternal life is given to whoever believes. You've had to ADD "abiding", which is taking the word out of its context and FORCING it into a verse that Jesus NEVER added.

These are plain to see to the unbiased reader.

Your comments that I haven't included reveal that you have not been diligent to present yourself an approved workman, from 2 Tim 2:15.

I'm just not going to keep rehashing all the facts that you just keep ignoring.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Wow, you wasted a lot of effort in trying to prove Judas was saved. But he was not. Disciple means student. They were given to the Lord for a purpose and Judas purpose was already known - someone had to betray Jesus.

Totally false, i suggest you read every page of my responses to your claim here in this post I have addressed many of the issues

But we read that Jesus called unto him "HIS" twelve Judas included and gave them all power to cast out devils and over all the power of the enemy and jesus said in another place about this power given that they should not rejoice in this but that their names were written in heaven.

Jesus also ordained the twelve and sent them forth, Judas included, to the LOST sheep and he sent the twelve as (found) sheep to the lost sheep and said that the Spirit of the father would speak IN them when needed.

#1. LISTEN, NONE OF THE DISCIPLES WERE SAVED BEFORE JESUS DIED AND ROSE ON THE THIRD DAY.

Absolutely false

I only need one verse to disprove your error here ( although there are so many more)

"12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."( John 17:12 KJV)

this was spoken BEFORE Jesus died and rose again .

also I can show that they were BORN AGAIN before the cross.

If he was saved, would he betray Jesus and commit suicide?

This is the [point Jesus spoke of Judas referring to an OT Psalm which says that his familiar friend in whom he once trusted hath lifted up his heel against him. A person cannot "betray" someone unless they once had their trust. Judas once had that and Judas was also entrusted with power over the enemy and to cast out devils and heal the sick . Satan cannot cast out Satan, and so we see at the beginning Judas was a sheep , an apostle and he FELL by transgression as we read in Acts 1. If he was always fallen how can he "fall later by transgression?

sorry you are not correct in any of your words here about Judas. I suggest you go back and re read all my post from page 1.

Slowly and consider the verses.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I just responded to EVERY so-called example of passages that teach loss of salvation. I hope you've paid attention to HOW to refute someone else."

You sound a bit high minded here

Not at all. I am just pointing out how to refute someone you disagree with. Give them FACTS. That's what I've done.

and you ddn't refute anything I wrote and you proved nothing.

You are free to claim anything you want to. But facts are facts.

You MUST continue to ADD conditions for recipients to meet to not perish. And John 10:28 clearly has NO conditions to meet. But you just keep ignoring that.

So, that's the FACT. Deal with it.

The examples of Adam and Eve from the very beginning I did not see any response. maybe its somewhere I haven't found it yet.

I included my explanation immediately after your comments about A&E.

But all your attempts to explain each example away are full of error.

Well then. Go ahead and actually show HOW they are. List the error, and prove that it is in fact an error.

But all you do is make claims, without any evidence. That's the problem with your posts.

The text speak for themselves. You assume to much

Good grief!! Are you NOT aware of how so many people read the SAME VERSE and come up with widely varying opinions of what it means?

It is you, sir, that have been making HUGE ASSUMPTIONS. I am explaining verses, point by point. All you've done is make assumptions.

Such as, the assumption that Jesus "really meant" that recipients must continue to believe in order to not perish. But Jesus said NO SUCH THING.

I believe you cannot deal with these points as you did not deal with the points I made from Adam and Eve and on. Each one of your attempts can be easily shown to be in error.

Then go ahead and show how my comments are in error, if it is "so easily done". lol

Just trying to find time to respond.

Is this the beginning of excuses, in order to avoid having to put your assumptions on the table and trying to prove them when there is no proof?

It is not difficult to respond to your answers but it does take time.

Pfft. All you've done is make huge assumptions about what you think verses mean, but without any exegesis, and I've shown clear verses that refute your assumptions.

 

[LoveofTruth]

No, what you keep doing is ADDING conditions where Jesus didn't in John 10:28.

In John 3 and 5 and other places we read the condition for everlasting life as Jesus said

"16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should [a word that implies if they abide in that belief it does not say they will not persih no matter what, we can say they shall not perish if they abide in Christ and overcome to the end] not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him [this belief is an ongoing thing that is needed every day not just a one time event. This is part of your problem. You seem to think it is a one time event.] is not condemned: but he that believeth not [if a person believes not even after once believing they are not in eternal life and as jesus said are condemned] is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."(John 3:16-18 KJV)

"24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;[again they shall not as long as they abide and continue in the faith and continue to believe which some do not do as Jesus said in Luke 8 etc] but is passed from death unto life."

If a person believes not after once believing they are condemned as well and the wrath of God abideth on them and they are in darkness and in danger. We see this all over scripture. We see this in 1 John and Hebrews 3;12 and with Judas and many other examples. Including the strong passage in Luke 8 where they only believed for a while then fell away. Yes Jesus said he that believes hath everlasting life, but he that does not believe is condemned. So if a person believes for a while then falls away they are condemned, even if they once had that eternal life.

Oh I remember you said you would never change your view no matter what (or something along those lines) it's like your saying "I believe what I believe , don't bother me with the facts."

John 10:28 is in context with all the words of Jesus.

we cannot take a passage and put it against Jesus other words.

Jesus said once "go and tell that fox" if men are to use your way of dealing with scripture text and rip them out of their context then they could say that we should talk to foxes. A person might come and say no Jesus was only speaking figuratively about a man like a fox. They may say "no it says tell that fox it defeats all your other verses. They would be wrong as you also are

In John 10 we see before vs 28 Jesus talks about those who believed not. The implication along with the rest of John is that they must believe his word. if not they are lost. I know these are different times when Jesus spoke and to different people but this is the case all through John. The key is jesus words about how to have that life.

"9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."

but just before vs 28 we read

"25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.26 But ye believe not..38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.."(John 10:25,26,38 KJV)

Jesus Christ is that eternal life and he will only abide in a person as they abide in him through continual belief.

Your own opinion has not been shown in Scripture.[/QUOTE]

Yes it has by many verses and the verses that you seem to avoid in 1 John 2:24,25 which show the condition for continuing in eternal life, which is to abide

and read John 15 again

'Ill post both sections for all to see who read on and so they can see your error in assuming that Jesus is only talking about fruit bearing and fellowship. But to bear fruit and be in fellowship with the Son and the father a person must abide in the vine, in Christ and walk in the light. If they do not abide in Christ and lose salvation they do not bear fruit If they bear no fruit he takes them away and cast them into the fire. A tree is known by its fruit. A corrupt tree cannot produce good fruit and a good tree cannot produce corrupt fruit. So if a believer does not abide in Christ and sinneth as 1 John 3:6-10 speak of and does unrighteousness they are not of God but of the devil.

here are just a few of the verses for all to see and know you are in error by your argument here

"Every branch in me [to be in him is salvation and in that salvation only can we bear fruit of the Spirit] that beareth not fruit he taketh away:...4 Abide in me, and I in you.[remain in me or continue in me in Greek] As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.[without Jesus we have no eternal life and can only wither away and die spiritually] 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, [proving that a person can go away from Christ and not continue in the faith and not remain in Christ, what salvation do they have if they are not in Christ. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his] and they are burned.7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you....If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; [this shows that to abide is to have God's love in our hearts and to be in His love, but if any man does not abide and loves the world the love of the Father is not in him] even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.11 ......14 Ye are my friends, if [conditional word] ye do whatsoever I command you."(John 15:1, 4-7, 10, 14)

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If [conditional word] that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. [so you cannot even claim to have seen God or known him if you do not abide in Christ. If you abide not and sinneth this is evident in that state of darkness that you are not in eternal life. To say you are is a lie according to John who said if we say we walk in the light and then walk in darkness we lie or if we say we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness we lie. They are in darkness who do these things and in unrighteousness and not of God. ]

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.( 1 JOHN 3:6-10 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

You MUST continue to ADD conditions for recipients to meet to not perish. And John 10:28 clearly has NO conditions to meet. But you just keep ignoring that.

Here's a new question

How does any person have eternal life and why does Jesus give them eternal life in John 10:28?

Do you say that Jesus forces some to be saved and others to be damned as some Calvinist say?

does a person have to repent and believe the gospel? or does God force them to have eternal life?

what is the reason that Jesus will give eternal life to anyone?

if you say they must first repent and believe. Then you say exactly what I say and add the condition to have Jesus Christ formed in them ( which is eternal life) you cannot take John 10 out of the context of the entire book of John and from Jesus previous words.

Then your whole talk enfolds in on itself as it has been doing to the unbiased reader.

If you read closely you will see that Jesus said his sheep hear his voice vs 27 and he knows them vs 27. Even before Jesus met many in person they belonged to the Father (as in the case of the twelve apostles John 17:6 etc) and when he spoke they heard his voice and his word and believed because at some point in time they had heard God's voice in their hearts were convicted and repented and believed in their hearts in God's righteousness for their salvation. Then when they saw Jesus and heard his word they simply evidenced that they were already saints and had His word in their hearts. Today if you hear his voice harden not your hearts. The word speaks in the heart this is the seed sown in Luke 8. And if a person hears this word and receives the word and believes they would also hear Jesus word and believe. So Jesus can say my sheep hear my voice and I know them. He knows all men and espescially those who already had repented and believed in their hearts.

So in John 10:27 Jesus says

"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"( John 10:27 KJV)

Jesus voice is in the heart, through the seed that is sown to all men. This statement above was spoken just before John 10:28 where Jesus said that he gives unto them eternal life and they shall never perish. They will never perish as they walk with him and abide in him. We see clearly from post 1 that Judas was a sheep of Jesus and so had eternal life for a while as he believed for a while, then later he fell by transgression .

 

[LoveofTruth]

Everything you claim and assume is refuted directly and clearly in John 10:28, where Jesus taught that He is the CAUSE of anyone having eternal life, and never perishing is the EFFECT of having eternal life.

Therefore, on the basis of being given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

You didn't answer any of what i wrote here you just dodged

you said they were acting like children of God and acting like children of the devil. where does it say they were "acting"

you need to be held accountable for these words you said here and not simply run away and dodge as you clearly seem to be doing here

I will repeat the words again


To all.

consider this discussion I had recently with FreeGrace2

FreeGrace2 said: ↑

Here, John is describing how believers are acting. They either act like God's children, which they're supposed to, or they're acting like children of the devil.
Don't you understand that when you sin, you're acting like one of the devil's children?

I said

Where does John say they are "acting" this is your wresting of scripture and it is a serious error. Nowhere do we see that they are "acting" like the devils children. You either ARE one of God's children and abiding in Christ and in the light, or you are one of the devils children and not walking in the light but instead walking in darkness and not abiding in Christ. Judas was one who was in the light and then went onto darkness and became a child of the devil. Though he was not always one as scripture clearly shows.

John says CLEARLY to the unbiased reader

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. "(1 John 3:6 KJV)

. He did not say "whosever sinneth is acting like he has not seen God or is acting like he has not known him"


John clearly says

"7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."( 1 John 3:7 KJV)

He does not say "7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that acts like he doeth righteousness is acting righteous, even as he [God] is acting righteous righteous."


John Clearly says that whosever sinneth is of the devil, not acting like he is of the devil. You should seriously reconsider your words here.

" 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."(1 John 3:8 KJV)

Do you notice how it does not say

" 8 He that committeth sin is acting like he is of the devil; for the devil was acting like he sinneth from the beginning."(1 John 3:8 KJV)

John clearly says that those who do not righteousness are NOT OF GOD, not those that love not their brother. He did not say they are acting like they are not of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."(1 John 3:6-8 KJV)

Nowhere here does he say as you imply

10 In this the ones acting like children of God are manifest, and the ones acting like children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is acting like he is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."(1 John 3:6-8 KJV)

Such a distortion of scripture!!!

It says clearly the difference from the children of God and the children of the devil. And again this is the danger in what you teach. Those believers who are tempted and drawn away and who walk in darkness and hate their brother you say are simply acting like they are not of God and yet they still are of God. You are not saying they are of the devil as John clearly says. This causes those who are of the devil to be deceived and think all is well with them and such a wrong doctrine strengthens the hands of evil doers and does not warn them of the real danger and exhortation to holiness.

This reminds me of an OT passage about false prophets which we read

"14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah...
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you."(Jeremiah 23:14-17 KJV)

They tell those who are of the devil and walk in sin that they are still ok, and still saved and they shall have peace. But God rebuked them for such a thing.

and to say any are simply "acting" as children of God or "acting " as children of the devil is error. It does not say that in the text. They are either one or the other.

still waiting.

I showed clearly that if a believer or "whosever" does not do righteousness they are not of God. You say they are acting like they are not of God but actually they are still of God

This is a majour point

how do you interpret 1 John 3:6 ?

which says.

"6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. "(1 John 3:6 KJV)

Do you say that those who sinneth (and walk in darkness and say they are in the light) have (past tense) seen God and know God? contrary to Jesus words through John?

 

[LoveofTruth]

When Jesus said, "I give THEM eternal life", it is clear to the student of the Word (2 Tim 2:15) that He only means believers. That is a given. So there is no need to mention the condition for receiving eternal life.
The point of John 10:28 isn't about the condition for receiving eternal life.

No, you must apply the condition it is not a given to some.

This is a given as to my argument but it is not a given to your argument and there are others that even say we cannot believe or that is a work. So the condition of eternal life must always be for front in hearing Jesus words. This lines up with Jesus words in 1 John 2;24,25 showing the condition for abiding in eternal life which is to continue in the Son and in the father.

 

[Ronald]

"12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."( John 17:12 KJV)

This verse you posted refutes your claim. The son of perdition is Judas!
Your theology is like a house of cards. You spend loads of time, without discernment. Do you really know what it is to be born again? You claim the disciples were born again before Jesus died on the cross??? I have nothing more to say.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I said:
"Yet, you cannot provide ANY verse that actually says that eternal life can be lost."

there has been much evidence

Again, evidence that you've NOT studied to approve yourself to God. They DIDN'T have eternal life. That's WHY God provided the "tree of life" in the garden, that they ate from in order to continue living.

You are very wrong here and if they did eat of the tree of life then they had eternal life but lost it. But the tree of life is Jesus Christ. As scripture teaches and the wisdom and life and fruit from that tree is from the tree of life.

Proverbs 13:12
Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.

Proverbs 11:30
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise."

Proverbs 3:18
She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her."

Proverbs 15:4
A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.

Again this is spiritual in understanding and some spiritual things are hidden from the eyes of many.

Do you say that Adam and Eve were not alive eternally before they ate the fruit and died ( spiritually and physically) If they were alive spiritually then they were in the eternal life and walked with God and knew God and had Christ in them. For Jesus Christ is the eternal life and the true Light that lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world. Adam and Eve also had this true Light in them.

Adam and eve were not created to die and they were created as I said "in the image of God'. I did not say they were saved. I did not use that word. I am saying that they were in eternal life in Christ in the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

"27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them....(Genesis 1:27 KJV)

This image of God is what believers are now renewed after as scripture clearly teaches to those who have studied to show themselves approved unto God and so as not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"

Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

John 1:9
"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

Your assumptions are just out of control.

Your teachings are out of control.You don't seem to understand spiritual things and make a huff when I show them. The natural man recieveth not the things of the spirit read 1 Cor 2 a few times.

This is true but has no relevance to the discussion of losing salvation. Adam and Eve weren't created in a "saved state" as you continue to assume.

I didn't say they were in a "saved" state. They were in eternal life and spiritually would not have died nor physically in that state. But the day they ate the fruit they died. What died that very day? they died spiritually and had to be born again as all humans after them did.

And as I said they were created in the image of God. That image is in righteousness and true holiness and they and after the image of Him that created them. They had not sinned yet so they were in a clean heart and a holy heart.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

1. Judas once belonged to the Father and was given to Jesus. Jesus said this when he was speaking of the twelve apostles in John 17,

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6


“Thine they were”, past tense, Judas was included in that.


2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;


“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples”

Matthew 10:1

Notice first, that all twelves of the disciples were “HIS”. They all belonged to Jesus, and none of them belonged to the devil at this time. Matthew did not lie when he wrote this, Nor was Jesus ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).


3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, Judas included,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.


4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.


5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,


“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...”

Matthew 10:5

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14


Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.


6. Judas freely received and could cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, so he could also freely give as well.

“And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7,8

This shows that he was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.


“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.


7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him. Judas was as a sheep amidst wolves, showing that Judas wasn't a wolf then.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this


8. Judas had the peace of God to give to others, this was spoken to the twelve, Judas included,

“...let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.” Matthew 10:13


9. He also had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him, spoken to the twelve Judas included,

“For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” Matthew 10:20

10. Judas belonged to the household of Jesus, as we read here spoken to the twelve Judas included.

“them of his household?” Matthew 10:25


11. Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus once and was trusted by Jesus,

“ Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Psalms 41:9

Jesus told us that Psalm 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ John 13:8

This proves that Judas was not always a devil or thief as some say. He was once trusted and a familiar friend of Jesus.

Jesus does not call devils familiar friends, and he does not trust them.


12. He was blotted out of the book of life. In Acts 1 we read,

“concerning Judas...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.... For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Acts 1:16-20

The Psalm mentioned here, refers to Judas,

“Let their habitation be desolate... Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” Psalms 69:25,28

He was once in the book of life with the righteous and then blotted out. So he was once saved and had eternal life then lost it.


13. He fell by transgression, showing that he was not always fallen. But rather that he fell at a certain point in time. And he fell by transgression, it was his own will and choice.

“That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell “ Acts 1:25


14. He betrayed Jesus at a certain point in time,

“Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.” “Matthew 26:48


To “betray”, means to once have the trust and to go against that trust, as Judas did. He could not have betrayed that trust if he was always a devil. Because Jesus doesn’t trust devils.

Near the end of Jesus ministry he said Judas was a devil, but this he spoke of Judas who should betray him, future tense. We read about this near the end of Jesus ministry in John 6:71. And “then Satan entered into him.” Luke 22:3, this , was at the end of Jesus ministry not at the beginning as we saw already.

So Judas fell away and lost his salvation.


so to sum up just some of the points

1. Judas Belonged to the Father before given to Jesus
2. Judas was a disciple of Jesus at the beginning
3. Judas was an apostle
4. Judas was a a sheep sent to the lost sheep
5. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead heal the sick ( and satan cannot cast put Satan as jesus said)
6. Judas had the peace of God to give
7. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted
8. Judas had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed
9. Judas was written in the book of life once
10. Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out

This event in Matthew and Mark and other places is describing an event that started before Jesus died on the cross Jesus told them not to go to the gentiles or samaritans in another place and so this was not after the resurrection. Although some principles can apply to all who are sent out for all times. This was an actual event were they went out and cast ou deals etc. We read about this story in Luke as well where Jesus sent men out to cast out devils etc and they cam back and rejoiced that the devils were subject unto them and jesus said don't rejoice in this but that their names were written in the Lambs bok of life. This shows that they were saved before the cross and yet many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him n John 6:66. This shows that some of those whom were once in the book of life went away and lost salvation.

I’m not convinced. Judas was known for often stealing money from the treasury and not caring for the poor as stated in John 12:4-6

“But Judas Iscariot, the disciple who would soon betray him, said, “That perfume was worth a year’s wages. It should have been sold and the money given to the poor.” Not that he cared for the poor—he was a thief, and since he was in charge of the disciples’ money, he often stole some for himself.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:4-6

It is possible that all these situations took place to fulfill the prophecy. I don’t see any evidence that Psalms 69;28 is referring to Judas. The situation described in that Psalm does not fit Judas’ situation.

 

[LoveofTruth]

This verse you posted refutes your claim. The son of perdition is Judas!
Your theology is like a house of cards. You spend loads of time, without discernment. Do you really know what it is to be born again? You claim the disciples were born again before Jesus died on the cross??? I have nothing more to say.

No the verse I quoted showed that they were saved before the cross I used it for that response. But it also shows that the ones that were given to jesus in vs 6 included Judas and all those that were given to Jesus once belonged to the father and Jesus kept all the eleven but Judas fell by transgressionand was lost. This is the meaning.

It actually shatters your house of cards and exposed the OSAS camp to error
lets examine again the context as you seem to rip verses out of their context at times

"6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; [Judas was given to Jesus and we read this in Matthew 10 when Jesus called unto him HIS twelve and sent them all, all twelve as sheep to the lost sheep]

"...and they have kept thy word.7 ...While I was with them in the world,[this shows the past event again]

"I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me [past tense referring to the twelve that were given to Jesus by the father who ball belonged to the Father even before they were given to Jesus connecting to vs 6 of a past event]

"I have kept, and none of them is lost, [none of the 12 you gave me who were thine before you gave them to me] but the son of perdition; [but Judas who was one of the twelve you gave me. He is lost. He fell by transgression (Acts 1)] that the scripture might be fulfilled."( John 17:6,7,12 KJV)

"...concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry...25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; ...and Judas Iscariot, ...
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, [Judas had also received] freely give.
...
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."( Matthew 10:1-)

Clear to the unbiased reader.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No the verse I quoted showed that they were saved before the cross I used it for that response. But it also shows that the ones that were given to jesus in vs 6 included Judas and all those that were given to Jesus once belonged to the father and Jesus kept all the eleven but Judas fell by transgressionand was lost. This is the meaning.

It actually shatters your house of cards and exposed the OSAS camp to error
lets examine again the context as you seem to rip verses out of their context at times

"6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; [Judas was given to Jesus and we read this in Matthew 10 when Jesus called unto him HIS twelve and sent them all, all twelve as sheep to the lost sheep]

"...and they have kept thy word.7 ...While I was with them in the world,[this shows the past event again]

"I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me [past tense referring to the twelve that were given to Jesus by the father who ball belonged to the Father even before they were given to Jesus connecting to vs 6 of a past event]

"I have kept, and none of them is lost, [none of the 12 you gave me who were thine before you gave them to me] but the son of perdition; [but Judas who was one of the twelve you gave me. He is lost. He fell by transgression (Acts 1)] that the scripture might be fulfilled."( John 17:6,7,12 KJV)

"...concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry...25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; ...and Judas Iscariot, ...
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, [Judas had also received] freely give.
...
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."( Matthew 10:1-)

Clear to the unbiased reader.

I’m unbiased I don’t believe in eternal security but I think the evidence here is inconclusive. Sorry my friend I just don’t see anything here that is solid evidence. Not saying your wrong I’m just saying I don’t see it.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I’m not convinced. Judas was known for often stealing money from the treasury and not caring for the poor as stated in John 12:4-6

“But Judas Iscariot, the disciple who would soon betray him, said, “That perfume was worth a year’s wages. It should have been sold and the money given to the poor.” Not that he cared for the poor—he was a thief, and since he was in charge of the disciples’ money, he often stole some for himself.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:4-6

It is possible that all these situations took place to fulfill the prophecy. I don’t see any evidence that Psalms 69;28 is referring to Judas. The situation described in that Psalm does not fit Judas’ situation.

Psalms 69 is quoted in Acts 1 about Judas

"20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take."

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
...28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.


the context of Psalms 69 is about Judas as well as the being blotted out of the book and not written with the righteous

Jesus also said that the disciples should not be rejoicing that they had been given power over the enemy but that their names were written in heaven. This would include the 12 and the 70. Jesus appointed 70 ALSO with the 12. Jesus also turned to his 12 and said how blessed they were to see the things they have seen and hear what they have heard,.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I’m unbiased I don’t believe in eternal security but I think the evidence here is inconclusive. Sorry my friend I just don’t see anything here that is solid evidence. Not saying your wrong I’m just saying I don’t see it.

that's ok, all believers have the right to disagree and examine all things

Curious what group are you part of? There may be some bias from past teachings. For example if you come from a baptist or brethren assembly or reformed churches you might have had some bias from their teachings.

Many have been also listening to many of the radio preachers and there is a great many which teach OSAS. This can unknowingly bias our thinking.

I have heard other believers act like scripture says Judas was "ALWAYS" a thief. And they will say as much to me, saying Judas was always a thief". But the text does not say "always". Somewhere they picked up that thinking and it biases them to discussions about Judas.

Anyway God bless healthy discussion on these matters is good.

Read my discussion with freeGrace about 1 John 2:24,25 and 1 John 3:6-10. It is a strong evidence as well. Then read 1 John 3:15 with other verses about men saying they are in the light and walk in darkness and hate their brother. This is possible for believers as John warns them.

 

[EmSw]

I’m unbiased I don’t believe in eternal security but I think the evidence here is inconclusive. Sorry my friend I just don’t see anything here that is solid evidence. Not saying your wrong I’m just saying I don’t see it.

Do you see anything here, my friend?

Ezekiel 18
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?
26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you see anything here, my friend?

Ezekiel 18
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?
26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies.

I see someone turning away from God. The problem with this verse is who is righteous by his own accord? I believe only Jesus is self righteous. We are made righteous through Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In John 3 and 5 and other places we read the condition for everlasting life as Jesus said

I'll save you some colored ink here and give you the SINGLE CONDITION for having eternal life: believing in Him for it.

John 3;15,16, 5:24, 6:47. They all say so directly.

If a person believes not after once believing they are condemned as well and the wrath of God abideth on them and they are in darkness and in danger.

How come Jesus never FORCED any condition on recipients of eternal life in John 10:28?

We see this all over scripture.

We see nothing of the kind.