Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[Doug Melven]

OSAS was not taught by the early church fathers. They actually taught the opposite.

Documentation please.

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

​

For a Christian to lose their salvation God would have to:

*Erase the Mark (John 13- And verse 35.)

*Withdraw the Holy Spirit within them

* Cancel the Deposit (Ephesians 1:13-14 & 2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

*Break His promise (Acts 2:38-39 & What Does the Bible Say About Assurance Of Salvation?)


*Revoke the Guarantee (James 1:17 & 2 Corinthians 1:22)

*Keep the Inheritance (Ephesians 1:11-14)

*Forego the praise (Hebrews 13:15)



1 John 5:11-13: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The most frequent objection to the doctrine of eternal security is that it supposedly allows people to live any way that they want and still be saved. While this may be "technically" true, it is not true in reality. A person who has truly been redeemed by Jesus Christ will not live a life characterized by continuous, willful sin. We must draw a distinction between how a Christian should live and what a person must do in order to receive salvation.

The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; John 14:6). The moment a person truly believes in Jesus Christ, he or she is saved and secure in that salvation. It is unbiblical to say that salvation is received by faith, but then has to be maintained by works. The apostle Paul addresses this issue in Galatians 3:3 when he asks, "Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" If we are saved by faith, our salvation is also maintained and secured by faith. We cannot earn our own salvation. Therefore, neither can we earn the maintenance of our salvation. It is God who maintains our salvation (Jude 24). It is God's hand that holds us firmly in His grasp (John 10:28-29). It is God's love that nothing can separate us from (Romans 8:38-39).


Any denial of eternal security is, in its essence, a belief that we must maintain our own salvation by our own good works and efforts. This is completely antithetical to salvation by grace. We are saved because of Christ's merits, not our own (Romans 4:3-8). To claim that we must obey God's Word or live a godly life to maintain our salvation is saying that Jesus' death was not sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins. Jesus' death was absolutely sufficient to pay for all of our sins—past, present, and future, pre-salvation and post-salvation (Romans 5:8; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 2 Corinthians 5:21).


Does this mean that a Christian can live any way he wants to and still be saved? This is essentially a hypothetical question, because the Bible makes it clear that a true Christian will not live "any way he wants to." Christians are new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17). Christians demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), not the acts of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21). First John 3:6-9 clearly states that a true Christian will not live in continual sin. In response to the accusation that grace promotes sin, the apostle Paul declared, "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" (Romans 6:1-2).


Eternal security is not a license to sin. Rather, it is the security of knowing that God's love is guaranteed for those who trust in Christ. Knowing and understanding God's tremendous gift of salvation accomplishes the opposite of giving a license to sin. How could anyone, knowing the price Jesus Christ paid for us, go on to live a life of sin (Romans 6:15-23)? How could anyone who understands God's unconditional and guaranteed love for those who believe, take that love and throw it back in God's face? Such a person is demonstrating not that eternal security has given him a license to sin, but rather that he or she has not truly experienced salvation through Jesus Christ. "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him" (1 John 3:6).

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

Instead of running from the truth please address the scriptures I have posted.

I pray you find the truth.

Please do not misrepresent my contributions in this discussion. I have refuted your argument with scriptures. Please pay attention to that. Thank you.

For a Christian to lose their Salvation God would have to:

*Erase the Mark (John 13- And verse 35.)

*Withdraw the Holy Spirit within them

* Cancel the Deposit (Ephesians 1:13-14 & 2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

*Break His promise (Acts 2:38-39 & these verses http://www.openbible.info/topic
s/assurance_of_salvation)


*Revoke the Guarantee (James 1:17 & 2 Corinthians 1:22)

*Keep the Inheritance (Ephesians 1:11-14)

*Forego the praise (Hebrews 13:15)

Your beliefs that uphold your argument that you are not eternally secure would have to refute those truths.

 

[justbyfaith]

You are sharing your own testimony as you believe you can lose your Salvation.

You do not speak to all Christians. Because God the Father almighty has done this. The Word delivered the word and it does not tell us we are under the law, or that works save, or that works secure our Salvation.
You are delivering your personal testimony as to how you believe.And you're using the scriptures out of context and improperly to affirm that idea.
2 Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

John 10:28-30 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

John 6:37-40 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Speaking of out of context, you quoted 2 Timothy 2:13 in order to deny what is written in 2 Timothy 2:12. When Jesus denies a person, are they saved?

 

[justbyfaith]

1 Timothy 2:12 tells us that if we deny him, he will also deny us.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are sharing your own testimony as you believe you can lose your Salvation.

You do not speak to all Christians. Because God the Father almighty has done this. The Word delivered the word and it does not tell us we are under the law, or that works save, or that works secure our Salvation.
You are delivering your personal testimony as to how you believe.And you're using the scriptures out of context and improperly to affirm that idea.
2 Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

John 10:28-30 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

John 6:37-40 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

2 Timothy 2:13 is about stumbling in our faith. I keep having to repeat this faith is translated from the Greek word pistis which not only means to believe but also means faithfulness and fidelity. Yes if we stumble Jesus is faithful to redeem us. There is a difference between stumbling in sin and being a slave to sin or willfully indulging in sin.

Ephesians 1:13 doesn’t say anything about eternal security.

Wow Ephesians 4:30 actually supports my point of view. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Doesn’t mean the seal can’t be broken if you do in fact grieve the Holy Spirit.

John 10:28 one of my favorites did you read verse 27?

“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27‬

So what does that say about someone who does not hear and follow?

John 6:37-40 yes and what were the characteristics of those The Father gave Him (Jesus) in verse 45?

“As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬

See my point?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Documentation please.

The Orthodox Catholic Church doesn’t teach it. OSAS was created by John Calvin in the 16th century. None of the Catholic Churches subscribe to OSAS. Surely your not a Calvinist I hope.

 

[Doug Melven]

1 Timothy 2:12 tells us that if we deny him, he will also deny us.

Deny us of what?
Jesus said this also. Then later on Peter denied knowing Him, not once, not twice, but three times. Looks like a pattern of denial. Yet Jesus did not deny him.
Maybe we don't quite understand what this denial is.
There is no record of Peter repenting, Jesus went to him.

 

[Doug Melven]

The Orthodox Catholic Church doesn’t teach it. OSAS was created by John Calvin in the 16th century. None of the Catholic Churches subscribe to OSAS. Surely your not a Calvinist I hope.

IOW, you don't have any documentation.
The Catholic churches are not the church fathers. Saying what the Catholic church subscribes to carries little weight with me.
I am not a Calvinist or Arminian.

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

2 Timothy 2:13 is about stumbling in our faith. I keep having to repeat this faith is translated from the Greek word pistis which not only means to believe but also means faithfulness and fidelity. Yes if we stumble Jesus is faithful to redeem us. There is a difference between stumbling in sin and being a slave to sin or willfully indulging in sin.

Ephesians 1:13 doesn’t say anything about eternal security.

Wow Ephesians 4:30 actually supports my point of view. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Doesn’t mean the seal can’t be broken if you do in fact grieve the Holy Spirit.

John 10:28 one of my favorites did you read verse 27?

“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27‬

So what does that say about someone who does not hear and follow?

John 6:37-40 yes and what were the characteristics of those The Father gave Him (Jesus) in verse 45?

“As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬

See my point?

It is not your point. It is God's point. Mounce Interlinear Greek English John 6:45 Bible Gateway passage: John 6:45 - Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament

Your list of scriptures omits verse 44. Which in and of itself refutes any effort to argue we can lose our Salvation.

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

IOW, you don't have any documentation.
The Catholic churches are not the church fathers. Saying what the Catholic church subscribes to carries little weight with me.
I am not a Calvinist or Arminian.

Perhaps it bears considering that they are either Catholic or Arminian. And it is from that standpoint they argue works save and we can freely choose to revoke the irrevocable free gift of God.

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

Speaking of out of context, you quoted 2 Timothy 2:13 in order to deny what is written in 2 Timothy 2:12. When Jesus denies a person, are they saved?

Yes, let us refer to contextual application of that passage.
Timothy was written to the Jews.
Who to this day, some of them deny Jesus as Messiah.
That is to whom the epistle of Timothy referred.
We, as in those In Christ, cannot deny the Christ we are in covenant with and who's Holy Spirit indwells us. That would be rather odd, don't you agree? We deny Christ but we're indwelt as Christians?

This is a wonderful site to access, in my view, for study as pertains to contextual agreement of scriptural teachings.

Excerpting from the full article found here> LINKED

"if we deny him, he also will deny us: there is a denying of Christ in words; so it is denied by the Jews that Christ is come in the flesh, and that Jesus is the Messiah; and some that have bore the Christian name, though very unworthily, have denied his true deity, his real humanity, proper sonship, and the efficacy of his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice, for pardon, justification, and atonement: and there is a denying of him in works; so some that profess to know him, and do own him in his person and offices, yet in works deny him; their conversation is not becoming their profession of him; they have the form of godliness, but deny the power of it: there is a secret and silent denying of him, when men are ashamed of him, and do not confess him; and there is an open denying of him, by such who set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh throughout the earth; there is a partial denying of Christ, which was Peter's case, though his faith in him, and love to him, were not lost; and there is a total denying of him, a thorough apostasy, and from which there is no recovery; and if there be any such apostates among those who have named the name of Christ, he will deny them, he will not own them for his another day; he will set them at his left hand; he will declare he knows them not, and will banish them from his presence for evermore. This is another branch of the faithful saying; this will certainly be the case; Christ himself has said it, Matthew 10:33." "

 

[BNR32FAN]

IOW, you don't have any documentation.
The Catholic churches are not the church fathers. Saying what the Catholic church subscribes to carries little weight with me.
I am not a Calvinist or Arminian.

What do you disagree about the Orthodox Catholic beliefs?

 

[zoidar]

BOTH. We cannot overcome the power of sin in our own strength.

Yes, it's both resist the devil and turn to God.

 

[Doug Melven]

What do you disagree about the Orthodox Catholic beliefs?

It is not whether or not I agree or disagree with what they believe.
But, they are not Scripture. So, there word carries little weight with me.
If what they say does not agree with Scripture, I will not accept it.
If what they say agrees with Scripture, I will accept it.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Jeremiah 32:38-40 teaches us that eternal security is predicated on THE FEAR OF THE LORD even of losing His salvation. I know that this will short-circuit someone's brain...

Could you explain this a little more?

 

[BNR32FAN]

It is not whether or not I agree or disagree with what they believe.
But, they are not Scripture. So, there word carries little weight with me.
If what they say does not agree with Scripture, I will not accept it.
If what they say agrees with Scripture, I will accept it.

I understand your concern. I was the same way until I began to learn about the early church. I’m not Orthodox or Catholic but everything I’ve learned is in line with the Orthodox Church, the scriptures, and the early church fathers. The Orthodox Church is nothing like the Roman Catholic Church. It was established by Peter in Antioch and is mentioned in the Bible several times. Although they were mentioned as the Church of God it was in Antioch that people were first called Christians. The Orthodox Church kicked the Roman church out of the Catholic Church in 1054AD for many heresies. They have always kept their teachings the same as the apostles handed down. They added the name Orthodox to their church which means traditional. Many people don’t understand that the Roman Church was at one time a true apostolic church but slowly began to change and by the 10th century began to adopt a lot of unbiblical teachings and practices. I wouldn’t say they hate the Roman church but they definitely strongly disagree with the Roman teachings. Even so much as to say the Roman church is not catholic.

This was written by St Iranaeus in 180AD. Long before the Catholic Church disputes. Adversus Haereses book 5 chapter 27

And to as many as continue in their lovetowards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store. But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God, He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light. It is not, [however], that the light has inflicted upon them the penalty of blindness, but it is that the blindness itself has brought calamity upon them: and therefore the Lord declared, He that believes in Me is not condemned, John 3:18-21 that is, is not separated from God, for he is united to God through faith. On the other hand, He says, He that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God; that is, he separated himself from God of his own accord. For this is the condemnation, that light has come into this world, and men have loved darkness rather than light. For every one who does evil hates the light, and comes not to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that he has wrought them in God.

This is written by St Augustine some time between 370-430AD.

"I have now to consider the subject of perseverance with greater care; for in the former book also I said some things on this subject when I was discussing the beginning of faith. I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling. Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said. How, then, should he be said to have received or to have had perseverance who has not persevered? For if any one have continence, and fall away from that virtue and become incontinent, - or, in like manner, if he have righteousness, if patience, if even faith, and fall away, he is rightly said to have had these virtues and to have them no longer; for he was continent, or he was righteous, or he was patient, or he was believing, as long as he was so; but when he ceased to be so, he no longer is what he was. But how should he who Has not persevered have ever been persevering, since it is only by persevering that any one shows himself persevering, - and this he has not done? But lest any one should object to this, and say, If from the time at which any one became a believer he has lived - for the sake of argument - ten years, and in the midst of them has fallen from the faith, has he not persevered for five years? I am not contending about words. If it be thought that this also should be called perseverance, as it were for so long as it lasts, assuredly he is not to be said to have had in any degree that perseverance of which we are now discoursing, by which one perseveres in Christ even to the end. And the believer of one year, or of a period as much shorter as may be conceived of, if he has lived faithfully until he died, has rather had this perseverance than the believer of many years’ standing, if a little time before his death he has fallen away from the steadfastness of his faith."

"But, on the other hand, “of his own will a man forsakes God, so as to be deservedly forsaken by God.” Who would deny this? But it is for that reason we ask not to be led into temptation, so that this may not happen. And if we are heard, certainly it does not happen, because God does not allow it to happen. For nothing comes to pass except what either He Himself does, or Himself allows to be done. Therefore He is powerful both to turn wills from evil to good, and to convert those that are inclined to fall, or to direct them into a way pleasing to Himself. For to Him it is not said in vain, “O God, Thou shalt turn again and quicken us;” it is not vainly said, “Give not my foot to be moved;” it is not vainly said, “Give me not over, O Lord, from my desire to the sinner;” finally, not to mention many passages, since probably more may occur to you, it is not vainly said, “Lead us not into temptation.” For whoever is not led into temptation, certainly is not led into the temptation of his own evil will; and he who is not led into the temptation of his own evil will, is absolutely led into no temptation. For “every one is tempted,” as it is written, “when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed;” “but God tempteth no man,” - that is to say, with a hurtful temptation. For temptation is moreover beneficial by which we are not deceived or overwhelmed, but proved, according to that which is said, “Prove me, O Lord, and try me.” Therefore, with that hurtful temptation which the apostle signifies when he says, “Lost by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labor be in vain,” “God tempteth no man,” as I have said, - that is, He brings or leads no one into temptation. For to be tempted and not to be led into temptation is not evil, - nay, it is even good; for this it is to be proved. When, therefore, we say to God, “Lead us not into temptation,” what do we say but, “Permit us not to be led”? Whence some pray in this manner, and it is read in many codices, and the most blessed Cyprian thus uses it: “Do not suffer us to be led into temptation.” In the Greek gospel, however, I have never found it otherwise than, “Lead us not into temptation.” We live, therefore, more securely if we give up the whole to God, and do not entrust ourselves partly to Him and partly to ourselves, as that venerable martyr saw. For when he would expound the same clause of the prayer, he says among other things, “But when we ask that we may not come into temptation, we are reminded of our infirmity and weakness while we thus ask, lest any should insolently vaunt himself, - lest any should proudly and arrogantly assume anything to himself, - lest any should take to himself the glory either of confession or suffering as his own; since the Lord Himself, teaching humility, said, ‘Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation; the Spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.’ So that when a humble and submissive confession comes first and all is attributed to God, whatever is sought for suppliantly, with the fear of God, may be granted by His own loving-kindness.”" (Augustine, On the Gift of Perseverance, Ch. I, XII)

 

[Doug Melven]

Jeremiah 32:38-40 teaches us that eternal security is predicated on THE FEAR OF THE LORD even of losing His salvation. I know that this will short-circuit someone's brain...

Until it is put in it's context.
2:36 And now therefore thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning this city, whereof ye say, It shall be delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence;
32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
32:38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
32:39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

This is not even referring to the church.
Look in verses 36 and 37 to see who it is referring to.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Documentation please.

Ok to whoever rated that post winner for simply saying “documentation please” needs to read post#357 where I provided documentation and reconsider that rating.

 

[Doug Melven]

I understand your concern. I was the same way until I began to learn about the early church.

So you are not that way anymore?
A doctrine can disagree with Scripture and you will accept it?

"But, on the other hand, “of his own will a man forsakes God, so as to be deservedly forsaken by God.

This denies Hebrews 13:5
He will never leave us or forsake us.

Even someone who some think is a church father can not deny what is in Scripture.
Or should we hold Augustine's words higher than Scripture.
I for one do not consider Augustine a church father. The church was almost 300 years old when he came on the scene.
St. Irenaus didn't give that statement till the church was about 150 years old.
Not my idea of a church father.
Those who were around at the starting of the church.