Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[112358]

I am, however, making a case against conditional salvation.

Then you are making a case against the salvation Jesus Christ prescribed. He set the conditions, and like Him, they are immutable.

Rather, Hell becomes the only sure thing.

Heaven and hell are both certainties. What is conditional is to which we will ultimately become citizens. That will be determined by what we have done in the body. 2 Cor. 5:10

People equate "works" to "obedience". They are not the same.

 

[arabianhorselover]

Well, no one on this thread could deny that mainline Christianity knows that OSAS is not a correct doctrine.

It was made up about 500 years ago by Mr. John Calvin. It was really
Perseverance of the saints, but it was changed to preservation of the saints and then eternal security and today we call it once saved always saved.
It's a heretical teaching because it goes against what Christianity teaches.

IOW, for 1,500 years all the theologians of our faith got their doctrine wrong! Could you imagine! It took Calvin in the year 1,500 AD to come up with this idea.

If you care to discuss my background, we could PM.
I attended a Nazarene church for about 10 years and learned a lot from them, but almost all churches believe in the loss of salvation. It's not easy to do and no one should be afraid of it --- but it is possible and it's always up to us. God will love us forever as long as we stay close to Him.

I would like to PM with you when I get a chance, but can't do it right now.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Doesn't Jesus warn us to abide in Him? He is the vine, we can get cut off and thrown in the fire ?

 

[Neostarwcc]

I understand...but salvation IS conditional.

John 3:16
"For WHOEVER BELIEVES"

Jesus died for those who believe. Those who believe follow Him and are His disciples. Belief is necessary for salvation.

So,
If I believe...............I am saved.
If I do not believe.... I am not saved.

No matter WHEN that unbelief happens.

We are eternally secure as long as we do not ABANDON God.
It would be our choice to abandon Him --- we should know this consequence.

The analogy is more like this: If I eat every day I will live.
My living is conditional on my eating. As long as I eat, I will live.

Technically true but the doctrine of Eternal Security doesn't deny that. The doctrine of Eternal Security states that it is the work of God to keep a believer enduring until the end. Those who were once believers and fell away were never born again believers in the first place. Once a person comes to Christ for salvation and receives the Holy Spirit that person is sealed as it says in Ephesians 4:30. The Holy Spirit will then work in that person to get that person to live the kind of life that God wants them to live. And that includes keeping them in the faith, keeping them into the works that God wants them to do (Ephesians 2:10), and helping them obey the commandments of God and the word. Sanctification is a lifelong process. If a persons life is showing the fruits of the spirit than that means that that person will endure until the end and that they are eternally secure. It doesn't mean that a born again Christian might not temporarily abandon the faith but once they are children of God they are ALWAYS children of God and they will always come back to Christ.

 

[Doug Melven]

Well, not the last one, actually.

Whenever I say posts above I state the post numbers. No confusion that way.

I don't know what an antinomial is, but I have met persons -- and some on these forums -- that only do not act Christianly but will tell you flat out that it's not necessary to follow the commandments. Someone right here came pretty close to that.

Also, if a new Christian is reading along, this is the impression they would get by reading that the commandments do not have to be kept because Jesus "fulfilled" the law and so it's abolished. This is a clear misunderstanding of that verse. (Mathew 5:17)

We are required to follow the commandments of God.
We are required to be disciples of Christ...as long as we are, our eternal security is assured.

Antinomial = against law. They say you can just live however you want because your sin is paid for.
Paul preaches against this in Romans 6:1-3

You said you will take Jesus at His word and then spoke about Paul.
Please post a scripture where Jesus said all you have to do is believe in Him and you will be saved. I can't find one.

Ditto for Paul. Paul did not disagree with the Master and Lord Jesus.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
Everlasting doesn't mean finite, or a short life. It is everlasting.
Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Acts 16:31 Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

But those who believe in OSAS will say that even if our hearts change and are no longer right with Him, we are still saved. Did you read the post about the preacher that stated that even if a person curses God to His face, the person will still be saved?

OSAS causes such talk. This is not the first I've heard of this.

If your heart is right with God, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. How could your then not become right with God?
That preacher who said that was dead wrong.He didn't understand the Scriptures nor the power of God.

If it is possible to lose your salvation, that means it is up to a fallible human being to keep there salvation.
Those who preach insecure salvation understand neither God's holiness or the sinfulness of man.

Those who preach insecure salvation must feel good about themselves because they believe they were able to keep there salvation while others lost it.

Those who preach insecure salvation, when they get to Judgment Day, all they can hope for is that God is in forgiving mood. Because they can never know if there faith was enough to save them.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Perhaps the strongest argument in the Bible for Eternal Security and unconditional salvation are John 6:37-40 in which Jesus says:

" All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

It's hard not to believe in Eternal security with verses like that and John 10:28-30. Those are two powerful verses for the doctrine of Eternal Security.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don't know what an antinomial is, but I have met persons -- and some on these forums -- that only do not act Christianly but will tell you flat out that it's not necessary to follow the commandments. Someone right here came pretty close to that.

Also, if a new Christian is reading along, this is the impression they would get by reading that the commandments do not have to be kept because Jesus "fulfilled" the law and so it's abolished. This is a clear misunderstanding of that verse. (Mathew 5:17)

We are required to follow the commandments of God.
We are required to be disciples of Christ...as long as we are, our eternal security is assured.

I’ve been debating with a guy for two weeks that says all you have to do is believe and you will be saved. Even if you turn away from God and start killing Christians and worshipping satan you will still go to heaven even if it’s against your will. Crazy

 

[GodsGrace101]

I’ve been debating with a guy for two weeks that says all you have to do is believe and you will be saved. Even if you turn away from God and start killing Christians and worshipping satan you will still go to heaven even if it’s against your will. Crazy

I hear this too. This is why it's such a heretical doctrine.
I can't post here anymore tonight. It's late here.
But there are some interesting posts for tomorrow.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Perhaps the strongest argument in the Bible for Eternal Security and unconditional salvation are John 6:37-40 in which Jesus says:

" All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

It's hard not to believe in Eternal security with verses like that and John 10:28-30. Those are two powerful verses for the doctrine of Eternal Security.

Yes but who comes to Jesus?

“As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬

About John 10:28-30 you need to back up one verse.

“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27‬

There’s a prerequisite to being His sheep.

 

[112358]

It doesn't mean that a born again Christian might not temporarily abandon the faith but once they are children of God they are ALWAYS children of God and they will always come back to Christ.

Not so according to James (5:19-20).
"...he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death..."

James is addressing the brethren here (v.19). That is, speaking of Christians who have fallen away and are condemned unless turned from the error (read: repent). If this erring brother's earthly life ends before he is turned...he is lost in eternity.

 

[paul becke]

God cannot lie (Titus 1:2). Because of his inability to lie, when God promises you ETERNAL/EVERLASTING life upon receiving Jesus Christ by faith, you cannot lose it, otherwise it wouldn't be everlasting. Nothing can separate from the love of God in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:38-39).

I mean, I would seriously like to know what Bible verses people who believe they can lose their salvation turn to in order to prove their beliefs.

No! No! No! Get this straight or you are doomed. There is only one criterion for entry to heaven and it is love, the wedding garment - 'upon which hangs he whole of the law and the prophets.' Elsewhere it is stated that when a good man turns bad, he is rightly condemned. Where is you knowledge of scripture that you are unaware of that saying ?

Even then James says in a James 2:18 : 'But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.' You could be a 'tinkling cymbal' without works, couldn't you ? I believe even John Knox said that it was, nevertheless, not conceivable that a person who is saved would appear before God empty-handed of good works - which amounts to the same as its requirement.

You place your trust in mere credence, in mere belief, while, as St James further states, even the devils believe and they tremble. Do you not think Satan thought he could not lose his status among the blessed angels ?

It's good that you brought up the example of the Pharisees, but you go one step, indeed, many steps further in your lack of humility. At least, the Pharisee in the synagogue recited a list of virtues he considered he exmplified - while the only one you consider important is credence, and that based on very limited understanding (more limited than is normal to all of us) ; and a certainty that the truth is absolutely plainly on your side in scripture.

The faith qua credence that Christ spoke of, was rather different from that expected of most of us, post-Constantine, since its expression in the Israel of his day, via a personal commitment to him, could cost a person heavily, since his followers were even threatened with expulsion from the Synagogue - a heavy penalty for most people in a close theocratic society. You have a dangerously-simplistic understanding of truth, as does the originator of the thread.

 

[paul becke]

That is old testament.

Be Blessed

Even more, New Testament, as Jesus confirmed. Where is your knowledge of the New Testament ?

 

[paul becke]

Actually the most important commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind and a second commandment which is equally important is to love each other as Jesus loves us.

Yes. That is absolutely pellucidly clear and the paramount cause of Jesus' incandescent fury at the scribes and Pharisees

 

[Micah888]

That is old testament.

Not really. Taken from the Old Covenant and embedded in the New Covenant by Christ.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Agreed.
But those who believe in OSAS will say that even if our hearts change and are no longer right with Him, we are still saved. Did you read the post about the preacher that stated that even if a person curses God to His face, the person will still be saved?

OSAS causes such talk. This is not the first I've heard of this.

If faith saves us, then we must continue in our faith to be saved.

...Were they truly saved in the first place if there is no lasting evidence?
The Lord Jesus said: " ...by their fruits ye shall know them", (Matthew 7.20).

 

[Doug Melven]

Not so according to James (5:19-20).
"...he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death..."

James is addressing the brethren here (v.19). That is, speaking of Christians who have fallen away and are condemned unless turned from the error (read: repent). If this erring brother's earthly life ends before he is turned...he is lost in eternity.

When you were born again, it was not your sould that was made brand new, it was your spirit. Our souls are still subject to death. Plus if this person had lost there salvation, they cannot be born-again again. It is impossible. Hebrews 6:4-6.

No! No! No! Get this straight or you are doomed. There is only one criterion for entry to heaven and it is love, the wedding garment - 'upon which hangs he whole of the law and the prophets.' Elsewhere it is stated that when a good man turns bad, he is rightly condemned. Where is you knowledge of scripture that you are unaware of that saying ?

Looks like a Scripture from Ezekiel 33.
Pleas show a Scripture that shows the only criteria for entering Heaven is love.
And then we can toss out all of the Scriptures that say we must believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well, no one on this thread could deny that mainline Christianity knows that OSAS is not a correct doctrine.

It was made up about 500 years ago by Mr. John Calvin. It was really
Perseverance of the saints, but it was changed to preservation of the saints and then eternal security and today we call it once saved always saved.
It's a heretical teaching because it goes against what Christianity teaches.

IOW, for 1,500 years all the theologians of our faith got their doctrine wrong! Could you imagine! It took Calvin in the year 1,500 AD to come up with this idea.

If you care to discuss my background, we could PM.
I attended a Nazarene church for about 10 years and learned a lot from them, but almost all churches believe in the loss of salvation. It's not easy to do and no one should be afraid of it --- but it is possible and it's always up to us. God will love us forever as long as we stay close to Him.

The thing I hate about OSAS is it is giving people a false sense of security and gives people the impression they don’t have to act like Christians to be saved. Of course not all who believe in OSAS are like this but many are including my brother who doesn’t want to stop drinking, smoking marijuana, cursing, and having a very combative and stern approach to everything. He doesn’t like it when I correct him or preach to him about God’s word. He says things like if God can’t accept me the way I am then oh well. I worry about him and I keep praying that his eyes and his heart will be opened to the truth. He once said we sin because God sins because we are made in His image. I just said no not even close and gave him my disapproval look. He could use some prayers his name is James.

 

[OSAS 101]

137 posts and nobody knows if they're saved or not
Let's start a salvation 101 class.
Oh, that's what this is?

 

[zoidar]

Romans 8.38-39 is a great passage for the believer's eternal security.

"What 'you' need is coming close to his heart, to really know him, learn to love him like your own dad, and you will be secure in your faith, not that you never can fall away, but you love your Father and you know that He loves you even more. Nothing can pull you out of his hands, NOTHING! Do you hear me? For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom 8:38). But we have to keep walking with Christ and not going back to live in sin"

Romans 8.38-39 contains some very strong promises!

Indeed it does!

 

[Doug Melven]

The thing I hate about OSAS is it is giving people a false sense of security and gives people the impression they don’t have to act like Christians to be saved

This is pure human reasoning.
You guys still haven't answered my question about what parent would disown there child because they were tired of there child not doing what they were told?

There is a good reason God calls is His children and not His employees or members of a squad.