If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

[mkgal1]

Also from that same article:

"Do you perceive the devil’s slander of our all loving, all kind, and absolutely good God? That is why in Greek the devil was given the name DIABOLOS, “the slanderer”." ~ https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/the-river-of-fire-kalomiros/​

 

[2tim_215]

What? Do you study History?
Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.
While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

The word devil is derived from the Greek word diabolos ("to slander"), and the term devil can refer to a greater demon in the hierarchy of Hell. At the same time, the term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel." It is easy to see how modern religions mistakenly adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".

The idea that there is a God in heaven above who fights against a god of the underworld, or hell, is not monotheism, however, it is the same duality found in other pagan faiths. Through His prophet Isaiah, God profoundly states, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and CREATE evil; I am God, I do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).Consider this: If there were such an opponent and foe of God like a Satan, as Christianity claims, don't you think God is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If God spoke him (Satan) into existence; God could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist.
(Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962, Philip Birnbaum, Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts, Hebrew Publishing Company, 1991, Aryeh Kaplan, Jewish Meditation, Schocken Books, 1985.).

Acts 17:16 While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols.
Rev 12:9??
That is funny because what John says leaves out your devil theory because according to him it hadn't happened before the book was written! John says, 'things which must shortly come to pass and things which must be hereafter. '
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Tell my why you are not foolish when you say you think your devil is cast down from heaven when you consider what Job says in chapter 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me. Job says that all the evil which the LORD had brought upon him Job 42:11

The Satan doctrine is one of the most deceptive and corrupt doctrines to ever enter Christendom, and which has been embraced and promoted by false teachers for thousands of years in as much as from the hand of God only good can come, but against him, the Creator of the universe, no opposing being could originally exist but through their own fault they fell (John 8, 44; 2 Pet. 2, 4; Jude 6);when Christ shall appear to overthrow the kingdom of [death] (1 Cor. 15, 26; Heb. 2, 14; 1 John 2, 8). SEE Winer, 2, 385

At an earlier stage of the language it might have been possible to establish different renderings, but now the English equivalents are so stereotyped that any change seems impossible. Thus the rendering of διαβολος and διαμονιον by the same word 'devil' is a grievous loss ; and it is much to be regretted that Wycliffe's translation of διαμονιον by ' fiend ' was not adopted by Tyndale, in which case it would probably have become the current rendering.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Hillel , son of the nm. morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! The name is a cognate of the Hebrew word Shachar (שחר) meaning dawn.

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge) Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.
Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches.

There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.
Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil
David Joris (c. 1501–1556, Against this is his rationalist approach to the topic of the devil and supernatural evil. David Joris anticipated the views of Thomas Hobbes, John Epps and Dr. John Thomas in interpreting the devil as an allegory.

Later than Muggleton, but earlier than Bekker, Newton came to the same conclusion as both of them – that the devil in Scripture was never the supernatural evil being of ‘orthodox’ theology, and that all temptation comes from the lust of the heart: The “Devil”, then, is a symbol of lust and an vivid hypostatization of idolatry in aggregate. This language cannot be reconciled with the orthodox position.’
Stephen Snobelen, ‘Lust, Pride, And Ambition: Isaac Newton And The Devil’, pages 7, 8,9,10,11,12 November 2002

I've read all of this stuff before and it's just a smokescreen to take our attention off of our real enemy. If you want to believe that God's a monster and is responsible for all our troubles go ahead, it's your prerogative just like it's mine to believe otherwise. If you do take that tact then you realize that you're refuting what the Bible tells us? Satan doesn't mean "fallen angel" it means adversary (see Strong's). Satan is an archangel (or chief angel) which comes from Revelation 12:7. And Revelation was written many years after Paul's writings.

 

[thesunisout]

What do ya'll think of this opinion?

"The devil managed to make men believe that God does not really love us...and is offended by our insubordination to such a degree that we must pay for it by eternal tortures, created by Him for that purpose."

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/the-river-of-fire-kalomiros/

Who can really truly love an eternal torturer?

God has already proven that He loves us by sending His Son Jesus Christ to die for our sins on the cross. His love for us based on that one fact cannot ever be questioned. It is the wickedness of men that rejects Jesus Christ which is what merits eternal punishment. The scripture tells us in Romans 1 that all men are without excuse, and since that is so, they are willfully rejecting Christ.

It's like a man who wants to jump out of a plane without a parachute, and he is being held back by someone (Christ) trying to give him the parachute he needs. Instead of taking the parachute he squirms out of his grip, spits on him and then jumps out of the plane. The man hits the ground and dies and it is no ones fault but his own. The ones questioning Gods character are the bystanders who saw that happen and think that the man with the extra parachute is the monster instead of the man who jumped.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Whoever loves Yahweh the Creator so much, that no matter "If you kill me, I will trust you still" .....

Who can really truly love an eternal torturer?

Job 13:15 KJV - Though he slay me, yet will I trust in - Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+13:15&version=KJV
Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him

 

[he-man]

Whoever loves Yahweh the Creator so much, that no matter "If you kill me, I will trust you still" .....
Job 13:15 KJV - Though he slay me, yet will I trust in - Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+13:15&version=KJV
Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isaisa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[2tim_215]

double post

 

[he-man]

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isaisa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So take warning, take heed, be careful what you believed in the past and question it, test it all, and no longer believe the false prophets among the people nor the false teachers.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isaisa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam.

WRONG



One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
• Job 1:6-8




And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
• Zechariah 3:2




And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
• 1 Chronicles 21:1



In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall Punish Leviathan The Piercing Serpent, even Leviathan That Crooked Serpent; and he shall slay The Dragon that is in the sea.
• Isaiah 27:1




Now The Serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto The Serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And The Serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
• Genesis 3:1-7

 

[2tim_215]

A great line from the movie "The Usual Suspects", "The greatest trick that the devil ever played was convincing the world that he didn't exist".

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Sadly, at very crux of this discussion is the group that insists that "they would never follow a God who...." And, the God clearly portrayed in the Bible will let them the fruit of their ignorant mouths.

I don't claim to understand why God does the things He does. He is very clear that His ways are far above my ways (Isa 55) and in Job. God Himself specifically taunts satan with Job then allows satan to progressively attack Job (Job 1,2). Then, after God answers Job out of a whirlwind (Job 38-42) and has a very stern and corrective conversation with Job, Job doesn't say "well if you are the kind of God who could...., then I'm not following you!" Instead, Job says: "I know that You can do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from you. Who is he that hides counsel without knowledge? Therefore have I uttered that which I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.... I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye sees you. Wherefore, I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42) Noah got to know God and God saved Noah and started over with Noah and His family, after killing everyone through a flood (Genesis). Sodom and Gemorrah were burned up for the wickedness that was going on in their time. And, all that happened before Jesus--God's very own Son--came into the world to die for us.

I am far from perfect. God knows. I didn't deserve God choosing to wake me up and if He were to say that He gave me a chance and I ignored too many of His very clear directions, He would have that right and I would be guilty as charged. I am not looking to turn the tables on God and somehow make Him a villian, because of my bad choices. I am truly thankful that He gave me a chance to see just how amazing He is during this life.

Does He have the right to cast me into the lake of fire--even if it means I suffer eternal torture? According to the Revelation's list that I have had at my disposal from long before He chose to wake me up, YES HE WOULD! Does that make Him a monster like some would have you believe? Absolutely NOT! I would just be a vessel that failed to survive the perfection process--maybe loving this world or the things in it too much. God knows us better than we know ourselves. Very clearly, Jesus tells us to "abide in Him" and thereby "remain in His love". Very clearly and repeatedly, Paul tells us to "walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh." And what if we don't? Jesus says those branches are withered, die and are gathered and thrown into the fire. Paul says the result is death or destruction depending on where you read.

For anyone who thinks they have the right to judge God, the reality you have to face is that IF He actually employs eternal conscious torment, YOU have labeled Him a monster. When you realize you were wrong, you can regret that, but you can't take back that you labeled "a God who would do that" to be a monster you couldn't love or wouldn't follow. If God does use eternal conscious torment, what do you think God is thinking about you referring to Him as a monster that you could never love or would never follow? Do you think God is determined to convince you otherwise or just willing to let you eat the fruit of your lips?

IF, HOWEVER, on the flipside, I have misunderstood His Word and am simply accepting what I believe He says about Himself and I am wrong, the judgement I have made about God is that He is Sovereign and has a right to do with His creation that which He deems appropriate as the GOD of that creation--even if that includes destruction or eternal conscious torment. That certainly seems to be more consistent with what God was trying to help Job understand than the "monster" position.

 

[2tim_215]

Sadly, at very crux of this discussion is the group that insists that "they would never follow a God who...." And, the God clearly portrayed in the Bible will let them the fruit of their ignorant mouths.

I don't claim to understand why God does the things He does. He is very clear that His ways are far above my ways (Isa 55) and in Job. God Himself specifically taunts satan with Job then allows satan to progressively attack Job (Job 1,2). Then, after God answers Job out of a whirlwind (Job 38-42) and has a very stern and corrective conversation with Job, Job doesn't say "well if you are the kind of God who could...., then I'm not following you!" Instead, Job says: "I know that You can do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from you. Who is he that hides counsel without knowledge? Therefore have I uttered that which I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.... I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye sees you. Wherefore, I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42) Noah got to know God and God saved Noah and started over with Noah and His family, after killing everyone through a flood (Genesis). Sodom and Gemorrah were burned up for the wickedness that was going on in their time. And, all that happened before Jesus--God's very own Son--came into the world to die for us.

I am far from perfect. God knows. I didn't deserve God choosing to wake me up and if He were to say that He gave me a chance and I ignored too many of His very clear directions, He would have that right and I would be guilty as charged. I am not looking to turn the tables on God and somehow make Him a villian, because of my bad choices. I am truly thankful that He gave me a chance to see just how amazing He is during this life.

Does He have the right to cast me into the lake of fire--even if it means I suffer eternal torture? According to the Revelation's list that I have had at my disposal from long before He chose to wake me up, YES HE WOULD! Does that make Him a monster like some would have you believe? Absolutely NOT! I would just be a vessel that failed to survive the perfection process--maybe loving this world or the things in it too much. God knows us better than we know ourselves. Very clearly, Jesus tells us to "abide in Him" and thereby "remain in His love". Very clearly and repeatedly, Paul tells us to "walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh." And what if we don't? Jesus says those branches are withered, die and are gathered and thrown into the fire. Paul says the result is death or destruction depending on where you read.

For anyone who thinks they have the right to judge God, the reality you have to face is that IF He actually employs eternal conscious torment, YOU have labeled Him a monster. When you realize you were wrong, you can regret that, but you can't take back that you labeled "a God who would do that" to be a monster you couldn't love or wouldn't follow. If God does use eternal conscious torment, what do you think God is thinking about you referring to Him as a monster that you could never love or would never follow? Do you think God is determined to convince you otherwise or just willing to let you eat the fruit of your lips?

IF, HOWEVER, on the flipside, I have misunderstood His Word and am simply accepting what I believe He says about Himself and I am wrong, the judgement I have made about God is that He is Sovereign and has a right to do with His creation that which He deems appropriate as the GOD of that creation--even if that includes destruction or eternal conscious torment. That certainly seems to be more consistent with what God was trying to help Job understand than the "monster" position.

I think that this is a wonderful post. It reminds me of one of my favorite Psalms which was written b David:
Psalm 139:1-24 (KJV)
1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
Then he says:
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
As believers are we to hate God's enemies? David apparently did. Be blessed.

 

[2tim_215]

911 Story:
https://people.com/human-interest/911-survivors-reflect-escape-south-tower/
There are other survivors I believe.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

What do ya'll think of this opinion?

"The devil managed to make men believe that God does not really love us...and is offended by our insubordination to such a degree that we must pay for it by eternal tortures, created by Him for that purpose."

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/the-river-of-fire-kalomiros/

Who can really truly love an eternal torturer?

The Word of God says that God is sovereign. That means nothing the devil can do is not expressly allowed by God. Again, this is clearly spoken in the Book of Job and where Jesus says that satan asked to sift Peter like wheat. And spoken by God in other places.

 

[Choir Loft]

If God knew that without His forcing them to be saved, they would reject Him for all eternity & be tormented, then He would be a monster if He didn't force them to be saved.

God's love does not expire like a carton of milk......

It saves all. Though given only the choice between annihilation and a being getting endless torments, it would choose the more loving & merciful of the two. Therefore endless hell is a myth.

If God created human beings such that they are (1) "eternally existing (as He Himself is)", so that it would be impossible to annihilate them even if Love Omnipotent wanted to, and (2) if He knew in advance that some of them would spend eternity rejecting Him, then (3) He is a monster for having created them that way.

It's a logical argument. Is all logic fallen?

The basic premise for all argument about hell and salvation is that God created man with an immortal spirit.

HE DID NOT CREATE MAN WITH AN IMMORTAL SPIRIT.

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;
- Genesis 6:3a

There is no such thing as an indestructible immortal human spirit. There is no evidence of it in the Bible, none whatsoever.

“At the heart of current Christian belief in the afterlife is the Greek idea that a human spirit is ‘an entity separable from the body which can remain conscious even when the body is dead and which possesses some quality which makes it indestructible.’”
- Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology

Some folks in the secular world acknowledge the idea of a perpetual human spirit. Most Post-Modernist Christians do too. All are wrong, leading to a major break in their logic.

The problem of divine justice now arises.

What must a just God do with the wicked who have denied His love and salvation all the days of their lives? How can God be just and not avenge? Here's where Christian assumptions about hell have gone terribly wrong.

IF justice is to be done upon a wicked eternal spirit, the punishment must also be eternal.

The problem with the concept of hell lies not in the perceived monstrous character of God, but in our false assumptions about human immortality, all of which are entirely wrong - wrong if the Bible teaches man is mortal - wrong if the Bible is to be believed. It is IMPOSSIBLE to defend the righteous judgment of God if it is assumed the human spirit is immortal.

“…the traditional view simply ignores much scriptural teaching on this subject. It is all the more apparent that its real foundations are ecclesiastical tradition and a vague notion (often overtly denied but constantly reappearing in print) that even the wicked have a soul (or some other aspect or substance) which will always exist, even cut off entirely from God and subjected to his consuming wrath. Yet not one passage of scripture ever hints that it is the case.”
- Edward Fudge THE FIRE THAT CONSUMES

Did you get that?

Not one single passage of scripture says man, wicked or righteous, is created with an immortal spirit.

NONE.

The challenge for the hell believer is to prove, by means of contextual scripture reference, that the human spirit is immortal. Bear in mind that doing so, or arguing the position that hell exists - automatically makes God a heartless monster. On the other hand, the context of scripture suggests it isn't necessary for God to maintain an eternal torture chamber for creatures who are naturally mortal in body and spirit and who will die anyway. Please remember that the Bible asserts only God is immortal.

“who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light”
- 1 Tim 6:16

If God is immortal then all immortality is derived from God.

This is the good news of the gospel, that God has chosen to dispense the gift of eternal life to those who repent of their sin (choose to live righteously before God and man) and who accept Christ Jesus as their Lord and savior.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
- 2 Corinthians 5:17a

This is what 'being saved' means. Not for nothing is it called the Second Birth. The Second Birth is derived immortality - the gift of God's own life/essence to those who will accept it. There is nothing more precious for God to give and He will not waste it upon those who don't want it.

"Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."
- Jesus as quoted by John 3:3

Conversely, the wicked are not granted immortality BECAUSE THEY HAVE REJECTED IT. Their destiny is the Second Death in the Lake of Fire. God is just and gives them what they have wanted all their lives. The fire burns perpetually, but those cast into it are permanently destroyed.

When God assembles humanity before His throne for Final Judgment, the wicked are sent away. What then is separation from God if not denial of God's immortality - of the essence of divine life? There is no eternal torture because the nature of the human spirit, like the human body, is to DIE.

God is not a monster for having given each man and woman what they want; life to those who accept Him and death to those who've rejected the offer of immortality.

There is no hell. There is final annihilation.

And there is conditional immortality for those who ask......

The time to repent of sin is now.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[FineLinen]

Sadly, at very crux of this discussion is the group that insists that "they would never follow a God who...." And, the God clearly portrayed in the Bible will let them the fruit of their ignorant mouths.

I don't claim to understand why God does the things He does. He is very clear that His ways are far above my ways (Isa 55) and in Job. God Himself specifically taunts satan with Job then allows satan to progressively attack Job (Job 1,2). Then, after God answers Job out of a whirlwind (Job 38-42) and has a very stern and corrective conversation with Job, Job doesn't say "well if you are the kind of God who could...., then I'm not following you!" Instead, Job says: "I know that You can do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from you. Who is he that hides counsel without knowledge? Therefore have I uttered that which I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.... I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye sees you. Wherefore, I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42) Noah got to know God and God saved Noah and started over with Noah and His family, after killing everyone through a flood (Genesis). Sodom and Gemorrah were burned up for the wickedness that was going on in their time. And, all that happened before Jesus--God's very own Son--came into the world to die for us.

I am far from perfect. God knows. I didn't deserve God choosing to wake me up and if He were to say that He gave me a chance and I ignored too many of His very clear directions, He would have that right and I would be guilty as charged. I am not looking to turn the tables on God and somehow make Him a villian, because of my bad choices. I am truly thankful that He gave me a chance to see just how amazing He is during this life.

Does He have the right to cast me into the lake of fire--even if it means I suffer eternal torture? According to the Revelation's list that I have had at my disposal from long before He chose to wake me up, YES HE WOULD! Does that make Him a monster like some would have you believe? Absolutely NOT! I would just be a vessel that failed to survive the perfection process--maybe loving this world or the things in it too much. God knows us better than we know ourselves. Very clearly, Jesus tells us to "abide in Him" and thereby "remain in His love". Very clearly and repeatedly, Paul tells us to "walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh." And what if we don't? Jesus says those branches are withered, die and are gathered and thrown into the fire. Paul says the result is death or destruction depending on where you read.

For anyone who thinks they have the right to judge God, the reality you have to face is that IF He actually employs eternal conscious torment, YOU have labeled Him a monster. When you realize you were wrong, you can regret that, but you can't take back that you labeled "a God who would do that" to be a monster you couldn't love or wouldn't follow. If God does use eternal conscious torment, what do you think God is thinking about you referring to Him as a monster that you could never love or would never follow? Do you think God is determined to convince you otherwise or just willing to let you eat the fruit of your lips?

IF, HOWEVER, on the flipside, I have misunderstood His Word and am simply accepting what I believe He says about Himself and I am wrong, the judgement I have made about God is that He is Sovereign and has a right to do with His creation that which He deems appropriate as the GOD of that creation--even if that includes destruction or eternal conscious torment. That certainly seems to be more consistent with what God was trying to help Job understand than the "monster" position.

"Eternal conscious torment" by the Father of all fathers, intimately called Abba: surely you jest!

36. Are you more merciful than the God Who made you?

37. 'Can a woman forget her sucking child?'

38. Is the Creator of human sympathy less benevolent than the creature?

39. If God WOULD save all men, but CANNOT, is He infinite in power?

40. If God CAN save all men, but WILL NOT, is He infinite in goodness?

41. Does God DESIRE the salvation of all men? (1 Tim. 2:3-4)

42. As God is righteous, must not the desire for universal salvation be a RIGHTEOUS desire?

43. Is it true, that "the desire of the righteous shall be granted?" -- (Prov. 10:24)

44. Did God design universal salvation when He created man?

45. Will God carry His original design into execution?

 

[he-man]

WRONG One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” • Job 1:6-8 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?• Zechariah 3:2
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
• 1 Chronicles 21:1
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall Punish Leviathan The Piercing Serpent, even Leviathan That Crooked Serpent; and he shall slay The Dragon that is in the sea.
• Isaiah 27:1
Now The Serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto The Serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And The Serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
• Genesis 3:1-7

Rev 12:9??
That is funny because what John says leaves out your devil theory because according to him it hadn't happened before the book was written! John says, 'things which must shortly come to pass and things which must be hereafter. '
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
Job says that all the evil which the LORD had brought upon him Job 42:11

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge)

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.
There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.
Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil

David Joris (c. 1501–1556, Against this is his rationalist approach to the topic of the devil and supernatural evil. David Joris anticipated the views of Thomas Hobbes, John Epps and Dr. John Thomas in interpreting the devil as an allegory.

Newton came to the same conclusion as both of them – that the devil in Scripture was never the supernatural evil being of ‘orthodox’ theology, and that all temptation comes from the lust of the heart: The “Devil”, then, is a symbol of lust and an vivid hypostatization of idolatry in aggregate. This language cannot be reconciled with the orthodox position.’
Stephen Snobelen, ‘Lust, Pride, And Ambition: Isaac Newton And The Devil’, pages 7, 8,9,10,11,12 November 2002

James 1:14　 But every man is tested, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.　
15　 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.　
16　 Do not err, my beloved brethren.　

What makes the Christians' message dangerous, Celsus writes, is not that they believe in one God, but that they deviate from monotheism in their "blasphernons" belief in the devil.

Paul, writing about twenty years before the evangelists, holds a still more traditionally Jewish perception that Satan acts as God's agent not to corrupt people but to test them; at one point he suggests that a Christian group "deliver to Satan" one of its errant members, not in order to consign him to hell, but in the hope that he will repent and change.

The belief of the Hebrews down to the Babylonian exile seems but dimly to have recognized either Satan or demons, at least as a dogmatic tenet, nor had it many occasions for them, since it treated moral evils as a properly humans act (comp. Gen. 3), and always as subjective and concrete, but regarded misfortunes according to teleological axioms, as a punishment deserved on account of sin at the hand of a righteous God, who inflicted it especially by the agency of one of his angels (2 Sam. 24,16; comp. 2 kings xix, 35), and was according looked upon as the proper author of every afflictive disρensation.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

"Eternal conscious torment" by the Father of all fathers, intimately called Abba: surely you jest!

36. Are you more merciful than the God Who made you?

37. 'Can a woman forget her sucking child?'

38. Is the Creator of human sympathy less benevolent than the creature?

39. If God WOULD save all men, but CANNOT, is He infinite in power?

40. If God CAN save all men, but WILL NOT, is He infinite in goodness?

41. Does God DESIRE the salvation of all men? (1 Tim. 2:3-4)

42. As God is righteous, must not the desire for universal salvation be a RIGHTEOUS desire?

43. Is it true, that "the desire of the righteous shall be granted?" -- (Prov. 10:24)

44. Did God design universal salvation when He created man?

45. Will God carry His original design into execution?

And, "seeing, they will not see. Hearing, they will not hear...." If God's original design was what you claim, then why was Jesus called "The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world"--meaning God knew it would be necessary or desirable prior to creating man?

Given the contrast in other Scriptures, I think there is a misinterpretation of 1 Tim 2:3-4. God does not desire that any--who were destined to be saved--to perish. But, in maintaining "free will", some will.

Do you reject Scriptures--spoken by Jesus Himself--like Matt 24:11-13, or how about Matthew 25? Do you reject the Book of Revelation, especially Rev 22:14-15 or Rev 20:10-15? Have you pondered why Jesus--who knew His prayers were pure, potent, and produced what He asked for--didn't pray for everyone, but exclusively those given to Him and those who would listen to them about Him? (John 17:9, 20) Or why God made willful belief a requirement to be saved, if He was going to save everyone anyway? (John 3:16, for example) There is nobody who willfully chooses hell. They just choose not to believe what God says--just like people chose not to believe Noah about the flood! Nobody genuinely says "oh, I love the sound of eternal torment! I can't wait to be tormented by demons! let's start now!" When people were freed from demons in Scripture, NOT ONE--who had them--begged to get them back. The only ones who got angry were those who were making money off the demonized!

Did God create lucifer--who then made bad choices in his thoughts which resulted in him leading a revolt and being kicked out of heaven? Is it that same lucifer/satan who is being imprisoned for one thousand years, then being released, then being cast into the lake of fire and brimstone to be "tormented day and night for ever and ever"?

Yes, a loving God is doing that, according to His Word, to one of His created beings who rebelled against Him. If He is willing to do that to one of His angels (creation), why wouldn't He be willing to do that to one of His humans (creation)? How much more do we, who He sacrificed His Son for, deserve the same or worse if we should reject that great gift?

Judge with righteous judgment, not human judgment. Don't decide what God can or will do, based on what you think is right. Because God doesn't have to conform to your image and not conforming to your image doesn't make God anything less than God.

If God sees Himself as father of all humans, then why didn't Jesus pray for all humans?

 

[FineLinen]

And, "seeing, they will not see. Hearing, they will not hear...." If God's original design was what you claim, then why was Jesus called "The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world"--meaning God knew it would be necessary or desirable prior to creating man?

Given the contrast in other Scriptures, I think there is a misinterpretation of 1 Tim 2:3-4. God does not desire that any--who were destined to be saved--to perish. But, in maintaining "free will", some will.

Dear Johnny: The Master declares in no uncertain terms "I will draw all mankind unto Me". I am inclined to believe that is exactly what He will do! God not only desires all mankind to be saved, He wills all mankind to be saved! Again, our little wills pale in comparison to the Will of all wills! Will the Will prevail? Take it to the bank, my friend!

 

[Chinchilla]

2 Corinthians 5:11
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.