If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

[Marvin Knox]

Marvin Knox said: ↑

In addition - we all agree that, in the end, every knee will bow to Christ to the glory of God the Father. But that does not mean the owner of every knee is saved whether it belong to fallen man or fallen angel.

.........What leads you to that opinion?

The clear statement of the scripture which tells us that every knee will bow to Christ is what leads me to the opinion displayed in the first sentence above.

With regards to the second sentence - as to the not every one who bends the knee to Christ being saved - take for instance - Lucifer is not saved - ever.

I trust you don't believe that the devil will be saved.

That being the case - the point is - not every human who bends the knee will be necessarily saved either.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The problem with your claim is that you choose to narrow the scope of the argument in order to fit with your view rather than accommodate the text in order to form your view. I have no problem with what you've stated as I agree that all are reconciled to God - which is in fact the basic premise of universal reconciliation.

I am only narrowing the scope because that is what we are discussing in this thread. I.e. universal salvation.

I am pointing out that one can be "reconciled" to God by God and yet be unsaved according to the scriptures.

Therefore the doctrine of universal salvation (justification before God through faith in Christ's work) cannot be substantiated by referring to universal reconciliation.

Salvation and reconciliation are, quite obviously, two different doctrines in the mind of God as the scriptures clearly teach us.

I chose Holman as a common starting point to define reconciliation but you apparently reject it as it contradicts your personal definition of reconciliation as you choose to only focus on the difference between reconciliation and justification.

I don't reject Holman as the most common definition of what it means to be reconciled to God.

I am focusing on the difference between reconciliation and justification because universal salvation is teaching universal justification and obviously (as I have pointed out time and time again) universal reconciliation is not the same thing in the mind of God.

You fail to address how one can be reconciled to God and yet remain in enmity with God forever in the LOF.

Forever or for a lifetime on this earth or for a year in your "purgatory" is all addressed by God by His telling us that men can be reconciled to Him by Him and yet not justified. You cannot, logically, insist that this condition cannot be for eternity just as easily as the "time spans" I just named.

I find that to be a glaring weakness in you view/interpretation. In order to hold to your doctrine, you need to account for and explain away any contradictions including this one but you have neglected to do so.

I don't need to "explain away" anything. I only need to show where men being reconciled to God by God does not necessarily equate to eventual justification (salvation).

If there is a contradiction in this - it is not a contradiction of my making. It is one of God's making.

As I sometimes like to say. Your problem is with God and you need to take it up with Him.

Your position is that all are reconciled - which I agree with. Your position is that all are not justified - which I do not agree with. My position is that all are reconciled and at some point in the future, all will be justified as well.

All are clearly not justified. Why preach the gospel to men if they are all justified?

Of course your position is that all will be justified in the future. That controversy is what the thread is about and what you are espousing.

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men" (Rom 5:18). Paul is juxtaposing condemnation to all men as the result of one transgression and comparing that with the atonement of Christ which brings justification to ALL MEN.

The fact is that in Adam all died. We agree on that I would think. The fact is that all who are found in Christ are justified.

Justification by grace through faith is certainly brought to all men but all will not receive it.

The point of the passage is not that all will be saved. That is reading into the passage a doctrine which you believe to be true.

You believe the former clause, but you do not believe that latter clause because it inconveniently does not fit with your doctrine. All means all - not some - as your prefer to believe. Justification of life to all men means exactly what it says which contradicts your held position and informs my position.

I let the scripture interpret the scripture wherever possible.

The many scriptures such as the following, which when brought to bear on your teaching, make it untenable.

• "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14).
• "For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14).
• "And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27).
• "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27).
• "6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:6-8
• "Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." Revelation 22:15

I will not argue every scripture that touches on the subject with you here. It is a fact that the overwhelming majority of those taught by the Holy Spirit of God disagree with the doctrine of universal salvation.

I'm going to leave this thread now, if I can resist it. It has been a pleasure discussing this doctrine with you.

We will just, at this point, agree to disagree.

I certainly don't consider universal salvation to be a heretical teaching. I just think that it is biblically wrong - even though it is a nice idea.

God will undoubtedly straighten us out when it comes time.

 

[ClementofA]

I trust you don't believe that the devil will be saved.

I believe & know Love Omnipotent will save Satan & all others. See Col.1:20; Phil.2:9-11; Rev.5:13; Rom.5:18-19, etc.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

That being the case - the point is - not every human who bends the knee will be necessarily saved either.

"Phil 2:10–11, in which Paul stresses again that each and every creature will finally submit to Christ: “that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow, in heaven, on earth, and in the underworld, and every tongue may proclaim that Jesus Christ is the Lord.” In Phil 3:21 Paul hammers home again that Christ has the power to “submit all beings to himself.” Now, the verb that indicates the proclamation of the lordship of Jesus Christ on the part of all is ἐξομολογέω, which in the NT always means a voluntary and spontaneous, and not forced, confession, just like ὁμολογέω and ὁμολογία. This universal confession will be voluntary..." [p.40-41]

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

"Talbot argues Paul anticipated this exhaustive reconciliation because of the verb he chose: confess. According to Talbot, “he chose a verb that throughout the Septuagint implies not only confession, but the offer of praise and thanksgiving as well.”3 He goes on to suggest that, while a king or queen could force a subject to bow against their will, praise and thanksgiving can only come from the heart:

"either those who bow before Jesus Christ and declare openly that he is Lord do so sincerely and by their own choice or they do not. If they do this sincerely and by their own choice, then there can be but one reason: They too have been reconciled to God.4" "

A Pauline Universal Salvation? Universalism and Philippians 2:9-11 (4) | jeremy bouma

9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil.2:9-11, NASB emphasis)

3Therefore I inform you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor.12)

22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. 23"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.…(Isa.45)

11 It is written: “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God. (Rom.14:11)

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." (Rev.5:13)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Marvin Knox]

I believe & know Love Omnipotent will save Satan & all others.

OK.

I'm glad we got that out front for everyone to see.

When you talk about the doctrine of universal salvation - you are talking about salvation for Satan and the demons as well as mankind.

I just wanted to get it on the record as to where you were ultimately coming from.

It took a bit of work to get you to come out with the full end of your doctrine.

I'll just let you roll with it now since you have clarified your doctrine for all of us to see.

I hope that Oldmantook sees now where your doctrine leads to in the end.

If anyone here had any doubt as to where you are coming from vis a vis universal salvation - there should be no doubt now.

I'll leave you to it - since I don't want to serve as a conduit for the presentation of your false teaching any more.

 

[ClementofA]

(Matt. 7:13-14).

Already addressed in the thread i created here:

Matthew 7:13-14 does not refute the eventual salvation of all

"For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14).

If only "few" go to heaven, why does Paul say "many" will be saved:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Furthermore the "many" saved is parallel to the "many" who were lost. IOW all sinners will be saved, which is universal salvation.

Moreover Jesus says "many are called, but few are chosen", but he doesn't mention heaven or hell. He doesn't say "many are called for heaven, but few chosen for heaven". In fact God has decided to "call" ALL for heaven, not just "many". For it is written He shall draw all to Himself (Jn.12:32).

If Jesus statement was referring to some future destiny, it need not be final destiny, but merely a destiny related to a coming age or ages, such as, for an example, His millennial kingdom age eon, of 1000 years.

"For that matter, if the called and chosen referred to many lost-but-called compared to few-chosen-saved, then why does the parable feature vastly many more 'saved' (analogically) than the few who aren't? The king is practically cramming them into the wedding feast; the relative few who don't get in, or the one who gets in on false pretexts and then is thrown out, don't fit the apparent moral."

"(Of course the cities of the rebel chief servants are burned, but we aren't told what happens to the people in them. Relatedly, this is another hell-text that involves the most important servants of the king being the ones who get zorched or at least excluded, depending on the version of the parable: it's aimed analogically at Christ's own disciples and apostles, not at random people who aren't even Christians. They get compelled to be crammed into the feast en masse!)"

Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong.

• "And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27).

Are there few that BE saved? Present tense. It does not speak of final destiny.

23 and a certain one said to him, `Sir, are those saved few?' (YLT)
23 And one said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? (NASB)
23 Now someone said to Him, "Lord, are few being saved? (CLV)
23 Said and one to him: O lord, are few those being saved? (Diaglott)

Jesus doesn't answer the question directly. He says many will seek to enter "at the straight gate" and shall not "be able". It seems they were trying to enter but, for some reason, didn't have the ability. Jesus does not say the "many" will *never* be able to enter or never be saved. To the contrary, Paul says "many", not few, shall be saved, by which He means all:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27).

In context, this is limited to events in "the earth" (v.28), not final destiny (Rom.5:18; 11:26-32; Mt.1:21 + 2:6) after the yet future millennium ends and the earth has passed away & there is a new heavens & a new earth (Revelation 20-22; 1 Cor.15:22-28).

One take or conceivable possibility on the specifics of it is as follows:

"27 Isaiah's testimony is to the same effect. A remnant in Israel shall be saved in the coming time of reckoning. These are seen in [the book of Revelation] as the hundred and forty-four thousand and the vast throng" (Rev. 7:4, 9)".

Paul to the Romans

"6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:6-8

• "Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." Revelation 22:15

These fall short of addressing final destiny, let alone anyone being tortured for eternity. That is revealed in Rev.5:13. The "second death" is temporary till death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26), God becomes "all in all" (v.28), even in all who were in Adam (v.22).

It is a fact that the overwhelming majority of those taught by the Holy Spirit of God disagree with the doctrine of universal salvation.

The overwhelming majority of anti-universalist pro endless torments advocates are not even properly informed about the universalist viewpoint. And have never even honestly & objectively considered the evidence for universalism. Ditto for CI. How many Christians believe in each of these 3 views today is known only by the Omnipotent, though in the early church universalism, at times, may have been a majority:

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

During modern times & the internet age it seems likely many more are turning away from the dogma of endless torments to the other two alternatives. Probably endless sufferings was more popular during the Dark & Middle Ages of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning "heretics" alive & their writings.

 

[ClementofA]

OK.

I'm glad we got that out front for everyone to see.

When you talk about the doctrine of universal salvation - you are talking about salvation for Satan and the demons as well as mankind.

I just wanted to get it on the record as to where you were ultimately coming from.

It took a bit of work to get you to come out with the full end of your doctrine.

I'll just let you roll with it now since you have clarified your doctrine for all of us to see.

I hope that Oldmantook sees now where your doctrine leads to in the end.

If anyone here had any doubt as to where you are coming from vis a vis universal salvation - there should be no doubt now.

I'll leave you to it - since I don't want to serve as a conduit for the presentation of your false teaching any more.

I've posted the same here many times before.

Universalism speaks of humanity being saved.

It doesn't address the destiny of fallen angels & Satan.

Those who believe in universalism have varying views on the destiny of non human beings.

Likewise those who believe in endless punishment have varying views re Satan, what the punishment will involve & dozens of other issues amongst 100's of denominations.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Marvin Knox]

I've posted the same here many times before.
Universalism speaks of humanity being saved.
It doesn't address the destiny of fallen angels & Satan.
Those who believe in universalism have varying views on the destiny of non human beings.
Likewise those who believe in endless punishment have varying views re Satan, what the punishment will involve & dozens of other issues amongst 100's of denominations.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

For the record.
You are teaching salvation for Satan and his demons.
You have said it clearly and we have it on record.

I believe & know Love Omnipotent will save Satan & all others. See Col.1:20; Phil.2:9-11; Rev.5:13; Rom.5:18-19, etc. This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

 

[ClementofA]

For the record.
You are teaching salvation for Satan and his demons.
You have said it clearly and we have it on record.

Let's make that about 2 dozens times on this site alone. Not counting all the other sites, blogs, forums, etc, i post on.

Satan & demons will be saved by Love Omnipotent. Is anything too difficult for the Almighty? Jesus said, With God all things are possible. Scripture confirms this:

Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the pre-eminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.


John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

"The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell
It goes beyond the highest star
And reaches to the lowest hell"

The guilty pair, bowed down with care
God gave His Son to win
His erring child He reconciled
And pardoned from his sin

Could we with ink the ocean fill
And were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill
And every man a scribe by trade

To write the love of God above
Would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole
Though stretched from sky to sky

Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

O love of God, how rich and pure!
How measureless and strong!

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 

[Oldmantook]

All are clearly not justified. Why preach the gospel to men if they are all justified?

Of course your position is that all will be justified in the future. That controversy is what the thread is about and what you are espousing.

Does not the scripture that I cited clearly state that all men are justified? Just exactly what part of all don't you understand? The meaning is plain and simple is it not? All means all - not some. Doctrine is formed by interpreting the plain and simple statements of scripture which then inform the more obscure details of Scripture as we agree that scripture interprets scripture. Seems that you have it backwards. You rightly believe that all are reconciled because Scripture plainly says so however at the same time, you also do not believe that all are justified despite the plain reading of the scripture. If all means all with regards to reconciliation, does not all mean all with regards to justification? I find that your process of bifurcation to be quite arbitrary simply for the sake of preserving your held belief.

The fact is that in Adam all died. We agree on that I would think. The fact is that all who are found in Christ are justified.

Justification by grace through faith is certainly brought to all men but all will not receive it.

The point of the passage is not that all will be saved. That is reading into the passage a doctrine which you believe to be true.

All in Christ are indeed justified. The problem is that by necessity you have chosen to add your own words to the verse in order to fit with your belief - which is an unacceptable means of interpretation. Rom 5:18 plainly and simply states that Christ's sacrifice is unto justification of life to all men. This verse does not contain the clause, "in Christ" which you have chosen to add. It does not say that only all men who are saved and come to faith in this life are justified. All means all - alive or dead. You claim that all men will not be justified because not all come to faith. Contrary to your belief the verse clearly states that all men are justified - which can only man one thing - that all men will eventually come to saving faith. Again, you have it backwards.
Let me once again use your same argument and turn it against you.
In this passage, is it not true that the point of Paul's comparison is to teach that Christ's one act of righteousness is much greater and more efficacious than Adam's one act of transgression?? Paul uses the phrase "how much more" when comparing the effects of Christ's sacrifice to Adam's sin. Given that, your notion that all are not justified falls completely apart. If all are not justified and come to saving faith as you claim, then Adam's transgression is much greater than Christ's sacrifice. In other words, Adam's transgression brought death to ALL men but Christ despite his righteous act brought justification and life to only SOME men. In fact not only some men, but the minority of men. Explain to me how that result squares with the intent of Paul's analogy? How much more is the gift and grace of God efficacious if only the minority of men are justified and made alive in Christ compared to all men who are condemned through Adam? Your belief certainly does not square with Paul's analogy/teaching and contradicts the scriptures. I don't have the time right now to address the other scriptures you cited to support your view, but will address them when I have time.

 

[2tim_215]

Without acceptance of "the gift" there cannot be any salvation. So Jesus made it possible for "all men" to be saved, that doesn't mean that "all men" will. There's other parts to this in scripture that says one must repent and come to Jesus first. But yes, Jesus has made this possible by the shedding of His blood. However, if a person is unwilling to accept Jesus as their savior, I do not see how that person can be saved until he does confess Jesus.

And yes, all in Christ are justified, but what if you're not in Christ? Are they too justified?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Doctrine is formed by interpreting the plain and simple statements of scripture which then inform the more obscure details of Scripture as we agree that scripture interprets scripture.

All in Christ are indeed justified. The problem is that by necessity you have chosen to add your own words to the verse in order to fit with your belief - which is an unacceptable means of interpretation. Rom 5:18 plainly and simply states that Christ's sacrifice is unto justification of life to all men.

The thing you don't see is that "all" are in Adam by virtue of their birth into the fallen human race.

But "all" are not in the last Adam until they are born into the justified human race by virtue of the new birth. You and I are now new creations in Christ and until men are new creations by virtue of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit they we remained only in the original Adam.

You are correct of course that plain and simple statements of scripture inform more obscure details of scripture. The thing that is crystal clear to me is that Paul is talking about "all" being able to now be because "all" died in the first Adam through original sin.

1 Corinthians 15:22 and other scriptures should be used to inform Romans 5:18

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."
"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

The idea that the Romans statement is referring to all men eventually being saved stretches what the obvious meaning of the passage is IMO.

Notice that the passage says that Christ's act of righteousness "resulted" in life to all men. It does not say that it "will eventually result" in life to all men.

Does not the scripture that I cited clearly state that all men are justified?

Yes - although it does not actually say that all men are justified. Clearly that is not so.

Also it says that there resulted justification of life "unto" all men. It does not say all men are now justified - only that it is now offered to them.

When Christ died - He did not make all alive.

Again - it's the idea of a "done deal" for what God is talking about - not something to be done in the future.

Your ignoring of the tenses here, as in the case of the "reconciled" passages, has resulted in either a misunderstanding on your part or a purposeful attempt to make it say something it does not.

He is obviously talking about what is available to all men and not what He has already fully accomplished. We can determine that by, as you say, letting scripture inform scripture.

Scripture clearly tells us that all have not been made alive in Christ. Otherwise, among other things, why would we have to preach the gospel?

Scripture also tells us that being made alive is available to all men even though it has not occurred.

Letting what is clear in the scriptures inform what is not clear - we arrive at the true meaning of the passage and also guard against a forced meaning such as you and ClementofA have imposed on it.

You simply may not say that there has resulted in all men something which the scriptures say has not resulted in all men.

I.e. - there has not "resulted" in the work of Christ itself eternal life in all men. There has only resulted the "right" in the economy of God for men to enter into that life through justifying faith.

If I have "added" words to scripture - it is only to expound on the meaning of the scripture since you obviously want to stretch the obvious purpose of the passage by ignoring the tenses used in the passage not to mention what is taught elsewhere in the scriptures.

One more time - what has "resulted in life unto all men" is not the justification of all men - since the scriptures clearly tell us that all men are not justified because all do not have faith.

Letting scripture clarify scripture - we find that what has "resulted" from the work of Christ is the free offer of gospel based justification.

However you wish to teach that Judas, Lucifer, and all demons will be saved - it cannot be arrived at through this passage.

 

[Oldmantook]

The thing you don't see is that "all" are in Adam by virtue of their birth into the fallen human race.

Yes all are condemned because of the one transgression. So your point is? You have not addressed how Jesus' one act of righteousness can be much more than Adam's act of transgression since Jesus' sacrifice results in salvation only for some in comparison to Adam's transgression which resulted in condemnation for all. This I believe is the weakest point of your argument where you have neglected to address Paul's analogy.

The idea that the Romans statement is referring to all men eventually being saved stretches what the obvious meaning of the passage is IMO.

Notice that the passage says that Christ's act of righteousness "resulted" in life to all men. It does not say that it "will eventually result" in life to all men.

It does not have to way WHEN that will occur. It plainly states what the result IS. Universalism states the same thing - that all will be reconciled to God at some time - whether in this life or in the future/age.

Also it says that there resulted justification of life "unto" all men. It does not say all men are now justified - only that it is now offered to them.

Again, it does not matter as to when as Universalism teaches that all men will eventually be justified. The end RESULT is justification to all men. It certainly does not state that justification is "offered" as you have added your own interpretation to to text. Rather, the RESULT is JUSTIFICATION to ALL men. Offer may imply that some will accept the "offer" and some will not. The scripture plainly states ALL - no caveats attached.

 

[Oldmantook]

• Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14).

• "For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14).

• "And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27).

• "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27).

• "6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:6-8

• "Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." Revelation 22:15

The first passage in Matthew that you have cited - you have neglected to pay attention to the verb tense employed in this verse. The verb employed is in the present tense. "...few are those who find it" - the Greek word for "find" in this verse is heuriskontes - a present tense verb which translates to "few are those who are finding it." This verse does not reference any action in the future regarding those who come to salvation. It only pertains to those who are not finding it at the time that Jesus spoke those words.
The second passage in Matthew in my opinion has no bearing on Universalism. The context of the verse you cited takes place at a wedding feast. A man shows up without wearing a wedding garment which causes him to be cast into outer darkness. He was called but obviously not chosen - because of his garment, or lack thereof. The germane question therefore is, what does the wedding garment symbolize since it was the cause of this man not to be chosen? In my opinion, the garment refers to the white garments worn by the saints referred to in Jude 1:23; Rev 3:4,18; 4:4. A white garment can only be worn by those Christians who have walked with Jesus and have not soiled their garments (Rev 3:4). Not all Christians are worthy to wear white garments as Jesus himself referred to only a few believers in the Church of Sardis who were worthy and did not soil their garments. These unworthy believers, like the man who showed up at the wedding are thrown into the lake of fire. There they will be punished/chastised until such time that they are reconciled to God.

For some reason you cite Lk 13:22-27 which appears to me to support what I wrote regarding your reference to Matt 7:14 regarding present tense verbs. "...a few who are being saved" refers to a few who are currently being saved. Again, saved in the Greek is a present tense participle sōzomenoi. This verse does not reference all who will be saved at some point in the future.

Rom 9:27 says one thing yet Rom 11:26 states: "And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
Note that Rom 9:27 does not state ONLY the remnant will be saved. It simply states the remnant will be saved which is a true statement. The rest of Israel outside of the remnant will also be saved as Rom 11:26 attests to.

I also don't see how your references to the passages in Revelation support your argument. I've already written that there is a literal, physical lake of fire where the unsaved end up - but not for eternal punishment. The LOF is outside the New Jerusalem. 14“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
You would have to explain to me how it is possible for the "kings of the earth" who end up outside the gates in the LOF allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem. In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the sworn enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). To me it appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time outside in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the gates of the New Jerusalem.

If you decide to end it here, that is fine Marvin. If you want to continue that is fine also but I grow weary of going round and round. At any rate thanks for the discussion as it keeps me on my toes and forces me to at least try to defend my views or become persuaded by yours.

 

[Marvin Knox]

It does not have to way WHEN that will occur. It plainly states what the result IS. Universalism states the same thing - that all will be reconciled to God at some time - whether in this life or in the future/age..................Again, it does not matter as to when as Universalism teaches that all men will eventually be justified. The end RESULT is justification to all men. It certainly does not state that justification is "offered" as you have added your own interpretation to to text. Rather, the RESULT is JUSTIFICATION to ALL men. Offer may imply that some will accept the "offer" and some will not. The scripture plainly states ALL - no caveats attached.

One more time - it "resulted" - past tense. You don't get to arbitrarily place future events in that result when the passage does not allow for it.

The first passage in Matthew that you have cited - you have neglected to pay attention to the verb tense employed in this verse. The verb employed is in the present tense. "...few are those who find it" - the Greek word for "find" in this verse is heuriskontes - a present tense verb which translates to "few are those who are finding it." This verse does not reference any action in the future regarding those who come to salvation. It only pertains to those who are not finding it at the time that Jesus spoke those words.

That's because obtaining salvation by grace through faith only pertains to this life on earth. It is given once to men to die and then comes the judgement.

There they will be punished/chastised until such time that they are reconciled to God.

There will be no time when they are justified before God through faith. It is given once to man once to dies and then comes the judgement.

For some reason you cite Lk 13:22-27 which appears to me to support what I wrote regarding your reference to Matt 7:14 regarding present tense verbs. "...a few who are being saved" refers to a few who are currently being saved. Again, saved in the Greek is a present tense participle sōzomenoi. This verse does not reference all who will be saved at some point in the future.

Exactly - "currently being saved". It is given once to men to die and then comes the judgement.

If you decide to end it here, that is fine Marvin. If you want to continue that is fine also but I grow weary of going round and round. At any rate thanks for the discussion as it keeps me on my toes and forces me to at least try to defend my views or become persuaded by yours.

I do so decide. I too have grown weary of going round and round.

I would like for you guys to be right. I hate the idea of Hell. Who doesn't?

But I can't force my desires onto what the scriptures teach and I feel that is what you are doing.

 

[Oldmantook]

One more time - it "resulted" - past tense. You don't get to arbitrarily place future events in that result when the passage does not allow for it.

How is that so? You already agreed that all are reconciled. Past tense. Same thing with justified. Past tense. Why do you readily admit that all are reconciled but by the same token, not admit that all are justified? The same hemeneutic applies to both but you rather arbitrarily yield to the former but not the latter. Your interpretation/application is inconsistent.

That's because obtaining salvation by grace through faith only pertains to this life on earth. It is given once to men to die and then comes the judgement.

No, if you knew your Greek verb tenses you would know that they only describe action which is taking place in the past, present or future with the action being the primary emphasis. The verse you referenced can only be interpreted from the speaker's/Jesus' point of view at the time he uttered those words. Thus Jesus was not referencing any future judgment - only that a few are presently finding it.

There will be no time when they are justified before God through faith. It is given once to man once to dies and then comes the judgement.

The verse plainly states "...so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men." ESV
Just what part of that verse is unclear to you? It seems to me that you persistently ignore its plain meaning.

QUOTE="Marvin Knox, post: 72202724, member: 352687"]Exactly - "currently being saved". It is given once to men to die and then comes the judgement.[/QUOTE]
No; currently saved only pertains to the present time. And only a few are presently finding it. It does not speak to the future when God reconciles and justifies all to Himself.

I do so decide. I too have grown weary of going round and round.

I would like for you guys to be right. I hate the idea of Hell. Who doesn't?

But I can't force my desires onto what the scriptures teach and I feel that is what you are doing.

I do so decide. I too have grown weary of going round and round.

I would like for you guys to be right. I hate the idea of Hell. Who doesn't?

But I can't force my desires onto what the scriptures teach and I feel that is what you are doing.

I could very well say the same thing about you in that you are forcing your preconceived notions about hell upon the text. It works both ways doesn't it? I'll repeat what I wrote in a earlier post which may or may not shed more light.
The core of the gospel in my opinion is described in Col 1:19-20: "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

If this be true, then the unsaved are never reconciled to God as they spend forever and ever in the lake of fire according to the eternal punishment view of hell. The unsaved are forever estranged and separated from God without any reconciliation taking place which puts this view at odds with the above cited passage. The notion that God's wrath is satisfied in the lake of fire as the unsaved are judged and eternally penalized for their sins against an infinite God simply does not square with these verses in Colossians. The notion that eternal punishment is sufficient recompense for sinning against God does not meet for the definition of reconciliation. I think it was George MacDonald who illustrated this by way of this example. If I recall correctly, MacDonald cited the example of a man who was robbed of his watch by a thief. The thief was caught, rightfully judged to be guilty and was sentenced to prison. After fully serving his time of punishment in prison, the thief was set free having paid his debt to society. However the fact remains that although the thief was punished for his crime and paid his debt, no reconciliation ever took place between the thief and his victim. Although the thief was punished, the man who was robbed of his watch never got his watch back, much less an apology - thus no reconciliation. In order for reconciliation to occur, two things have to happen. The thief has to 1) acknowledge his wrongdoing/guilt and 2) restitution of some kind had to be made in order to replace the value of what was stolen. The story of Zaccheus is a perfect example of this. As a tax collector he defrauded people but upon becoming saved he both acknowledged his wrongdoing and paid restitution for what he stole. In the same way, the gospel message involves admitting one's guilt and repenting of sin. Restitution was already made on our behalf by Christ's atoning blood and becomes efficacious when we repent and come to saving faith. In doing so, the two conditions are thus fulfilled and a relationship of reconciliation now takes place between the sinner and God.

...so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow— of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth— Phil 2:10

 

[Marvin Knox]

...............delete post.....

By the way - (I don't want to argue it with you in detail, even though I started to) We don't have any idea who the kings of the earth are on the new earth in eternity except to say that there will be nations coming to the New Jerusalem (us and the Lord?) for insight and for for worship.

He constantly says that "it is done" while affirming that some will have a place in the lake of fire even after it is done. Whatever it is done means it clearly cannot mean that the LOF has been done away with.

God may well populate the new earth with a new race of unfallen people. Indeed He may well populate the universe to come with such.

Of those peoples there will obviously be "nations and kings".

It seems doubtful that the Lord will place a tree of the knowledge of good and evil in a garden for those new people only to do this horrible age over and over again for eternity.

More likely - and IMO biblically - He will use the events of this age and their consequences as lessons for them to understand good and evil - grace and mercy and righteousness and judgement.

Again - I don't want to argue it at length. But it seems to me that you need to open your eyes to other possibilities and not just read your theology into everything concerning your dislike for the idea of eternal punishment for the wicked.

I won't answer your last post in detail since it is more of the same and we have touched on all of those things before many times.

 

[ClementofA]

It is given once to men to die and then comes the judgement.

Heb.9:27:
Is there salvation after death?

Does Hebrews 9:27 refute universalism?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Heb.9:27:
Is there salvation after death?

Does Hebrews 9:27 refute universalism?

I see that you have quite a few people who believe this false doctrine - special websites and all.

I've been trying to get rid of you like a bad penny ever since you made things personal and started presenting your doctrine from an emotional standpoint.

One more time:

 

[ClementofA]

I see that you have quite a few people who believe this false doctrine - special websites and all.

I've been trying to get rid of you like a bad penny ever since you made things personal and started presenting your doctrine from an emotional standpoint.

One more time:

Adios, brother. Farewell.

It is a fact that the overwhelming majority of those taught by the Holy Spirit of God disagree with the doctrine of universal salvation.

The overwhelming majority of anti-universalist pro endless torments advocates are not even properly informed about the universalist viewpoint. And have never even honestly & objectively considered the evidence for universalism. Ditto for CI. How many Christians believe in each of these 3 views today is known only by the Omnipotent, though in the early church universalism, at times, may have been a majority:

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

During modern times & the internet age it seems likely many more are turning away from the dogma of endless torments to the other two alternatives. Probably endless sufferings was more popular during the Dark & Middle Ages of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning "heretics" alive & their writings.

 

[Oldmantook]

...............delete post.....

By the way - (I don't want to argue it with you in detail, even though I started to) We don't have any idea who the kings of the earth are on the new earth in eternity except to say that there will be nations coming to the New Jerusalem (us and the Lord?) for insight and for for worship.

He constantly says that "it is done" while affirming that some will have a place in the lake of fire even after it is done. Whatever it is done means it clearly cannot mean that the LOF has been done away with.

God may well populate the new earth with a new race of unfallen people. Indeed He may well populate the universe to come with such.

Of those peoples there will obviously be "nations and kings".

It seems doubtful that the Lord will place a tree of the knowledge of good and evil in a garden for those new people only to do this horrible age over and over again for eternity.

More likely - and IMO biblically - He will use the events of this age and their consequences as lessons for them to understand good and evil - grace and mercy and righteousness and judgement.

Again - I don't want to argue it at length. But it seems to me that you need to open your eyes to other possibilities and not just read your theology into everything concerning your dislike for the idea of eternal punishment for the wicked.

I won't answer your last post in detail since it is more of the same and we have touched on all of those things before many times.

I think my reference to the kings of the earth speaks for itself. I don't have to imagine or manufacture reasons why they cannot be those who were formerly the enemies of God as it perfectly fits with the doctrine of apokatastasis. You on the other hand, given your doctrinal belief, you have to come up with reasons why they can't possibly be the same kings whereas I don't have speculate as to what the text says. You of course are free to disagree with the text.

I have opened my eyes and don't believe everything I was taught as like the Bereans, we are instructed to examine the scriptures for ourselves. You erroneously assume I dislike the idea of eternal punishment. I don't "dislike" it as you presume; instead, I don't believe it to be biblical truth and have written my reasons for believing such. I believe eternal punishment to have no biblical support whatsoever so in that sense you could say I dislike it. The way I see it, according to your view Adam's transgression is greater than Christ's sacrifice since the former brings condemnation to all but the latter brings justification only to a few. I find that conclusion to be an untenable one.
Again, we end up agreeing to disagree.