Do calvinists believe that God wills them to sin?

[HwtChirino]

Election is not according to God's hidden will, but revealed in Jesus. God chooses us in Jesus. Our salvation is not a matter of God sovereignly choosing is and isn't saved, but God choosing us in His grace.

This is fundamentally different. In the Calvinist system, God picks some to be saved, and thus there are some not chosen for salvation. That is not the Lutheran position--God does not look past, overlook, or choose anyone not to be saved--Christ died for everyone, and God's will and desire is that everyone be saved.

The point isn't that God says only some can be saved.
The point is that God is the One who comes to us to save us in Jesus; and He does this for the whole world.



Of course God doesn't will for man to sin. Sin is contrary to the will of God. God is not the author of evil.



The difference is that God's election is not by some hidden, inscrutable, sovereign choice; but by grace through the Incarnate Logos.



That isn't the Lutheran opposition, the Lutheran opposition to synergism is that attributes to man works which contribute to his salvation. It's not that it detracts from God's glory, but that it detracts from God's grace. When the Lutheran confesses that salvation is by grace alone, we mean that in the most absolute of terms: Grace alone. It is God who comes down, not we who go up. It is God who meets us, not us meeting God half way. It is God, in His mercy, kindness, and love embracing the humility and shame of the cross that rescues us, makes us right with God, and heals us.

It is intrinsically about making a firm distinction between Law and Gospel. From Luther's Heidelberg Disputation: "The Law says 'Do this' and it is never done. Grace says 'Trust this' and it is already done." The Law commands that which is good and right, and reveals that we are not righteous, but sinners; the Law is therefore unable to save us. No one can be righteous according to the Law, except One: Jesus Christ by whose righteous obedience has undone Adam's disobedience, by His death and resurrection crucifies sin and death and heals us, justifying us before God, and uniting us to Himself and to His life as pure gift, so that we have in Him sonship, by which we are heirs of God, joint-heirs with Jesus, and by the Spirit cry out, "Abba! Father!" and are made partakers of the divine nature, by grace, ultimately to the fullness that we will have in the resurrection of the dead, the eternal and immortal life in the Age to Come.



Lutheranism speaks of the distinction between Coram Deo and Coram Hominibus; that is us before God and us before our fellow human beings. To put it another way, God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does. God does not benefit from our good deeds, but our neighbor does--because they have hungry mouths to feed, they are thirsty and need drink, a roof over their head. The Law of God calls us outward, in love, toward others, in service to Jesus Christ, to live lives as living sacrifices to God. Our sacrifices, however, do not improve our status before God, it does not improve our station before God--the love and grace of God which He has for us in Jesus, which we have received in full from Him, received in faith through Word and Sacrament is truly, and indeed, full. We can't win brownie points with God, we can't make Him love us less, and we can't make Him love us more--He loves us fully, perfectly, and completely because, as St. John reminds us, God is love.

So what are our good deeds for? Are they for God? No, they are for our fellow man. Nothing we can do can increase, improve, or contribute to what God has already done for us, and already gives us. For He gives us the fullness of Himself in Jesus, the love we have, the grace we have, the salvation we have from Him is perfect and complete; for Christ died for the whole world. As St. Paul says, by grace we have been saved, not by our efforts, so that no one may boast; but we have been created for good works which have been prepared for us, that we might walk in them (Ephesians 2:10). The good works we do are not to improve our place before God, as though God rewards us based on our merits; but rather the works we do we do out of love for God and in response to the great love He has for us, and we do them for the sake of our neighbor.

Good works aren't that we might be saved, but rather we have been saved for good works.



We say it is monergistic because man is a passive recipient of God's mercies. Man does have a role to play in the living out of his faith, the living out of his salvation in the grace and love of God--that is the Coram Hominibus dimension of our Christian life. Christianity is not a purely vertical experience--us and God. It is also a horizontal one, us and other people and all of creation. Salvation comes solely from above, from God, down to us, as grace; but this grace and this life we have received is to be lived out in sacrifice and service to others. The Lutheran distinction is to say that the Coram Hominibus dimension of Christian life is not about our contributing to our salvation (what we have received from God) but of living that salvation out in response to God's grace.



This isn't the Lutheran position, however. God doesn't choose to damn anyone. God damns nobody. Since it is God's will that everyone be saved, Christ died for everyone. We damn ourselves. God is not unjust, since He does not pick and choose who will and won't be saved; God is just and the justifier of the unjust.

God alone saves.
Man alone damns.

To quote C.S. Lewis, "There are only two kinds of people in the end, those who say to God, 'Thy will be done.' And to those to whom God says, 'Thy will be done.'"

St. Isaac the Syrian speaks of two kinds of people in the end, those who experience the love of God as blessedness, and those who experience the love of God as anguish--but God deprives His love from no one, for love is impartial, and God's love is for everyone. The distinction isn't God's disposition toward us, but our disposition toward God. What the Lutheran says is that our disposition toward God changes, not by our own will, but by God's grace which comes to us through the Gospel, granting us faith.

Why then are some damned? Not by God's decree, will, or choice--but by man's own sinful, willful choice. It is man who chooses his own destruction. It is God's will that he be saved and live and have life abundantly in the Age to Come.

-CryptoLutheran

Okay, you mentioned many things, so I'll choose one main point to respond to.

With regards to your statement that you believe salvation is monergistic, that man is passive in receiving salvation, why then, do you quote CS Lewis and St Isaac?

For, how can you say, that God does not will or decree man's damnation while simultaneously purporting that man's will towards God cannot change without His grace?

Thus, what could be clearer, by your own words, that you are arguing that man cannot and will not choose God unless God chooses to give a man grace?

How is it reasonable in anyway to believe that while God wills all to be saved, He does not save all men because He does not give all men grace to choose Him and believe in Christ?

And if the Lord does not give grace to all men to repent and believe, how is this theology different from Calvinism?

And the impression you give me by your theology is this: once man receives the grace of God, he will repent, believe, and be saved. But if a man does not receive the grace of God, he cannot repent because he does not will to repent. So, what I am understanding from you is that you also believe that God's grace is essentially irresistible, similar to what Calvinists believe. Thus, once God's grace comes upon a man, man cannot but repent and believe in the Son of God unto Salvation.

However, if you are saying that even when God's grace descends upon a man's heart, man can still choose to reject Christ, then we are in agreement. Nevertheless, if this is what you believe, how can you say salvation is monergistic?

It is as I said, man has no power to save his own soul by any sort of works whatsoever. He does not earn his own righteousness, and he does not glorify himself. We know this to be the truth. Yet, to say man is a passive recipient is the furthest thing from the truth. In what way is he passive if you yourself say that he wills, that he chooses God's salvation by God's grace? A choice, a will, and works that reflect this choice and will cannot be deemed passive at all.

In a very simplistic way, we can observe that salvation is accomplished in this way. Firstly, God acts upon a man's heart. Man responds positively to God (or he can also choose to respond negatively unto damnation). Man's response is repentance, faith, good works, all of which are aided by the grace of God in a mystical way. Now, do we say that these things are possible without grace? No. And do we say that these things are unnecessary for salvation? By no means. Thus, if they are necessary, it follows that man must will them to be done. And it would be pious, I believe, to say that man's will to accomplish these things is something that is initially inspired by God's grace. Moreover, in order for man to repent, have faith, and yield good fruits, he must abide in Christ and receive grace from above. And it is possible that even in this seeking of God's grace, grace is also preceding man's actions, but not always.

So, in all that we have observed, it is impossible to conclude that man is passive and that he contributes nothing to his salvation. There is One Savior, Jesus Christ, not man; this is obvious. Ultimately, God saves man, man does not save himself. However, we must come to the Savior to be saved. We must believe on Him to be saved. We must cooperate with Him to be saved. Because, it is as you said, God wills all men to be saved and therefore man must also choose to be saved. And if man must choose and repent and have faith and do good works, it is most evident that he is not passive in his salvation, and we can assert this with all truth and piety while also maintaining that God alone is the one who saves man.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

False.

Calvinists don't believe in free will apart from God's sovereign decree.

God decreed it that we would be able to live our lives through free will.

The one thing our free will cannot escape is our sinful nature.

The one thing our free will cannot latch onto is saving grace.

God must do it for us.

 

[sunlover1]

The question is ambiguous. Which meaning of "will" are you referring to?

want.
I know He "allows" us to,
although I guess Calvinists
maybe would disagree?

 

[Radagast]

Calvinists don't believe in free will apart from God's sovereign decree.

Calvinists believe in compatibilist interpretations of "free will."

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

want.
I know He "allows" us to,
although I guess Calvinists
maybe would disagree?

Some Calvinists, like TreeofLife, believe that God ordains everything, and that includes our sin.

People like I believe that we are free to live our lives out but that we cannot will ourselves to stop sinning or to follow Christ without first being regenerated through unmerited, sovereign grace.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Calvinists believe in compatibilist interpretations of "free will."

In which I was making a case for.

I don't exactly believe that God controls every little iota of our behavior but that he foreordains these:

1. Who is regenerated through grace to become righteous.
2. Fulfillment of prophecy.

 

[Radagast]

I also wonder what the point is in asking non-Calvinists about what Calvinists believe.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

I also wonder what the point is in asking non-Calvinists about what Calvinists believe.

Opens the door for futile debates, doesn't it.

Calvinism either makes people scoff at it or puffs them up.

Or it humbles the person to submission to God's immutablilty.

 

[HwtChirino]

Ordain. The Bible says that he predestined for them to do it.

If God predestined His creation to sin, in what way are you able to clear God of the charge of being the author of sin?

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

If God predestined His creation to sin, in what way are you able to clear God of the charge of being the author of sin?

I believe the dude's a supralapsarian Calvinist, who believes that God ordained everything including sin to pass just for His sovereign will.

I am an infralapsarian light-Calvinist who believes that God most certainly did not ordain Adam and Eve's sin, but that once the Fall came into play, He elected those in Himself.

 

[HwtChirino]

Calvinists don't believe in free will apart from God's sovereign decree.

God decreed it that we would be able to live our lives through free will.

The one thing our free will cannot escape is our sinful nature.

The one thing our free will cannot latch onto is saving grace.

God must do it for us.

If man has a sinful nature, as you say, and therefore he cannot but will to sin, nor can he choose God, then explain to me how it is just for God to refrain from giving saving grace to some while extending it to others? Since it is evident that all have sinned and that there is none righteous and that all have gone astray, how can we believe that God is no respector of persons when He does not give saving grace to some and afterwards condemning them? How is that just, impartial, and righteous?

 

[Cement]

I believe that anyone can be saved not just those called. The thing I can disagree about most with Reformed Calvinist theology is regarding why Jesus told the apostles not to preach to certain people. I believe that since Jesus was God only he knew their hardened hearts would cause them to want to reject the gospel no matter the amount of miracles performed. Every time they seen a miracle yet refused to believe their sin was greatly magnified because of this in his mercy our Lord choose to speak in Parables or not perform miracles and to close their eyes to the truth lest their eternal judgement be the even more severe.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

If man has a sinful nature, as you say, and therefore he cannot but will to sin, nor can he choose God, then explain to me how it is just for God to refrain from giving saving grace to some while extending it to others? Since it is evident that all have sinned and that there is none righteous and that all have gone astray, how can we believe that God is no respector of persons when He does not give saving grace to some and afterwards condemning them? How is that just, impartial, and righteous?

I am not too sure what the context of that particular verse is. I, myself, take it to mean that God is no more likely to save a 'do all good' kind of person than to save a complete wretch. Hence, God is no respecter of persons, in that sense.

Indeed, there is none righteous apart from God's grace. Grace changes us. We become progressively sanctified, becoming more like Christ day by day.

God is not just by human standards, but by His own word. God could throw us all into hell and we'd all deserve it, but through Jesus, He offers mercy to those He offers mercy.

 

[Innerfire89]

What makes you the lucky one God did not pass over?

Luck is random chance, God isn't governed by random chance.

My thoughts aren't God's thoughts, so I can't give you answer to why God picked me or anyone else.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Luck is random chance, God isn't governed by random chance.

My thoughts aren't God's thoughts, so I can't give you answer to why God picked me or anyone else.

Precisely. God works outside of our comprehension, to state it lightly.

 

[RC1970]

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." ~ Proverbs 16:4

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." ~ Proverbs 16:4

Preach.

 

[RC1970]

If man has a sinful nature, as you say, and therefore he cannot but will to sin, nor can he choose God, then explain to me how it is just for God to refrain from giving saving grace to some while extending it to others? Since it is evident that all have sinned and that there is none righteous and that all have gone astray, how can we believe that God is no respector of persons when He does not give saving grace to some and afterwards condemning them? How is that just, impartial, and righteous?

You need to carefully study Romans 9. Paul anticipates your questions.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

You need to carefully study Romans 9. Paul anticipates your questions.

Yeah, Paul knows our worst questions and answers them deftly.

 

[HwtChirino]

I am not too sure what the context of that particular verse is. I, myself, take it to mean that God is no more likely to save a 'do all good' kind of person than to save a complete wretch. Hence, God is no respecter of persons, in that sense.

Indeed, there is none righteous apart from God's grace. Grace changes us. We become progressively sanctified, becoming more like Christ day by day.

God is not just by human standards, but by His own word. God could throw us all into hell and we'd all deserve it, but through Jesus, He offers mercy to those He offers mercy.

Of course, we can never say that any attribute of God is completely comprehensible to man's feeble mind. Nor can we ever understand His attributes in a human way. That is not what I am saying.

You would have to prove that I speak of God's justice in a human way. Furthermore, you yourself would also need to prove that you do not speak of God's justice in a human way.

But if I say that God is impartial in all that He does, rendering every man according to his works, being no respector of persons, how am I speaking humanly? These truths are all found in Scripture, are they not? How can you say that God is no respector of persons in one instance but not in others? It is reasonable to say that God is immutable; and if He is immutable in His characteristics, then He is no respector of persons in all cases with all men. Indeed, we do not ever find a scripture that qualifies this characteristic and says, "God is no respector of persons...only in these situations."

But we know that the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men (Titus 2:11), not only the elect, but to all men.

And again, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Moreover, The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

And Ezekial prophesies, Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezekiel 33:11)

But if you are not convinced sufficiently, how can you deny the words of Paul on this matter? For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Timothy 2:3-6)

And so, it is beyond apparent that God desires and wills all men to be saved in Christ Jesus, and that He has acted mercifully with all and extending grace to all in some way or another, in ways that our feeble minds cannot conceive, in ways that surpass our understanding. For the same God who spoke through a donkey, and the same God who appeared in a vision to Saul who would later be known as Paul, and the same God who imcomprehensibly became a man, was crucified for us, resurrected, and ascending into Heaven--this God, our God, Who can do all things, for nothing is impossible with God, the same willed all men to be saved.

The argument of Calvinists is that if God will man to be saved, then man must be saved because, otherwise, God's will is deficient and ineffectual. Now, this folly would be correct if these men possess a pious understanding of God's mercy and love. Man must also will to be saved and be one with God. Is this possible without God's grace? By no means, and we do not believe that. However, neither do we say that man has no capacity to choose God unless God forces him, or enables him, to choose the Lord and have faith in His Name by His irresistible grace. And we do not say that man cannot but choose God because of the irresistible grace of God. Is it true that God is sovereign? Yes. But He is not sovereign over man's will; He does not coerce man's will, nor manipulate it, nor force it. And if He did not act thus when man lived according to his sinful desires, God does not act thus to effect man's salvation.

If God did not extend His grace to all men, and if He did not will all men to be saved, how are you able to say that God impartial to all men? If you say that He is not impartial to all mankind, then you cannot deem Him just or righteous. Since, if He is just and righteous by deeming all mankind worthy of hell, in order not to be in opposition to His justice and righteousness, He equally extends His saving grace to all mankind in one way or another so that all are without excuse on the day of judgement.

You tell me, how is it reasonable for the Lord Jesus to command that we love our enemies and do good and to bless all of those who act against us, no matter who they are, but then He Himself does not act according to His own commandments?

Now, if the Lord is no hypocrite, as we know Him not to be, how can you believe that God will extend these small things to everyone while neglecting to also desire all men to be saved? But if you do not refute that He desires all men's salvation, how will you argue that He does not offer salvation to all men?

And I think it is a profitable question to ask why it is that God would command the repentance of sinners and not aid them or be merciful unto them? Are His commands just for show? Of course not. But if you believe that God justly extends mercy and salvation to some while neglecting others, it is clear that you believe that God demands repentance of men that will never repent, and that He condemns them without helping them or willing their salvation. Because what other reason could God have for inciting man's repentance through His prophets and apostles if He does not will their salvation also? And if He wills men's salvation, then He offers grace to all who are unfaithful, unrighteous, unjust, and wicked, which was the state of all who lived apart from Christ.

I am sorry if my post is very convoluted. This is hard to talk about.