Are Protestants dead?

[Righttruth]

My objections to this entire line is as follows:

01- What you seem to be saying up there is at such variance with historical Christology that I don't know that you're even complying with Nicene Christianity anymore.

Which part of historical Christology you are speaking of? I accept Apostles Creed, not politically instigated Nicene Creed.

02- I use conditional language like "seem to be" because if you've outright said in plain English what you believe, I must have missed it. You've thrown scriptural passage all over the place, you've somewhat articulated what you don't believe, you've spoken a bit in riddles, etc, but you haven't really said what you DO believe regarding Our Lord.

That is your excellent culture of humbleness in presenting your views. You may want to attach that to all my statements as well. I really mean it. I believe Jesus as the Son of God, nothing more or less as revealed in the Bible.

03- This is every reason why I will never really hold any intellectual respect for unbiblical ideas "sola scriptura". Because strange ideas like you seem to be dabbling with are practically guaranteed to occur and there is no backstop for them.

I also don't support 'sola scriptura'. It is a kind of book idolatry! No wonder it has led to myriad of denominations with unqualified people having a field day!

tl;dr- This is why I realize I could no longer be Protestant.

I don't claim to belong to any man-made groups though I fellowship with a non-denominational church regularly. I have attended different denominations. A few days back, I was invited by Catholic church to address Catholic school children on 'Importance of life'. I spoke them about seeing the Cross in the Ten Commandments.

 

[BNR32FAN]

All OK, expecting the statement that Word is God. John said 'Word was God'. The Three Persons in the Trinity form Godhead. Head is God the Father.

Yes friend the Word was God and the Word became flesh and we have seen His (the Word’s) glory, the glory of The Father’s one and only Son. John was sent to testify about Him (the Word). So you see there are several indications that the Word is Jesus in John 1 alone. The reason it says the Word was God is because the statement is in the past tense speaking about in the beginning. It would be incorrect grammar to say in the beginning the Word is God. That’s why it says the Word was with God and the Word was God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I believe Jesus as the Son of God, nothing more or less as revealed in the Bible.

“So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:14‬

The Son of God is the Word who was with God and was God in the beginning.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God in the form of flesh as the Son of God then. God was also with Israelite people during Exodus and in the first temple. We have the Holy Spirit now.

Yes it seems that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are somewhat hidden in the Old Testament. The only reference I can think of before Jeremiah is in Genesis 1:26

“Then God said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26‬

This is another indication that God was not alone during creation and before the creation of man. This also confirms what is said in John 1 that everything that was created was created through Him (the Word).

 

[Strong in Him]

No way. I take it my responsibility to believe and honor His words. You don't seem to do that with your man-made doctrines!

As has been shown, Jesus' deity is Scriptural.
If you want to keep denying this, that's up to you.

What is wrong with the Apostles Creed? Why non-Biblical additions in Nicene Creed?

Nothing's wrong with the Apostle's creed.

It is a FACT, though, that the Nicene Creed was drawn up because the church wanted to clearly set out what they believed. This was important because there were false teachers who were denying Jesus' deity.
There were two erroneous teachings.
One group said that Jesus was God and had never been truly human. They believed that flesh/the body/matter was corrupt and therefore God could not inhabit it. This teaching led John to say, "every spirit that acknowledged that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God", 1 John 4:2. Christian Scientists (a cult) teach this today.
The other group taught that Jesus became God at his baptism and stopped being God before the crucifixion. This teaching led John, Paul and others to stress the eternal existence of Christ; that he was there in the beginning, before all things, through whom the universe was created, John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Philippians 2:6-8; Hebrews 1:2-3; 1 John 1:1. JWs (a cult) also deny the deity of Christ.

You are free, of course, to deny this FACT - that the creed was drawn up so that people could clearly see Scriptural truth in the face of false teaching. That doesn't negate the fact, it just means that you refuse to recognise it.
Again, it wasn't political; it wasn't that people said "we need to sit down and come up with some doctrine in order to create a new kind of church". It was setting out what people already believed and taught - that Christ had been fully human and fully divine.

 

[Strong in Him]

Where did Jesus claim that He was fully God? Do you know all the attributes of God the Father to decide on that? Are you all knowing god? Jesus was Word before and created the universe, and He wanted similar status with God after His death and resurrection.

See the answer I have just given.

To want similar status to God is pride and is the sin that caused Satan to be thrown out of heaven.
As well as repeating the false teaching that Jesus was not both man and God - which you have been told is against the rules of this forum - are you now saying that Jesus sinned by wanting to claim divine status?

 

[Strong in Him]

Philippians 2:
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Can you see the manipulations you have made to suit your thinking? Paul wrote 'in the form of God', not in very nature God!

Some translations of the Bible say "in nature God" and this agrees with other texts in Scripture, e.g John 1:1.
Jesus was God and was with God from the creation of the world. He had not taken on flesh or been given the human name, Jesus, but he was still the eternal word, John 1:1, sharing the Father's glory, John 17:5 and one with him.

It COULD be the case that I have simply misunderstood some Scriptures - and yet you have judged, and accused, that I am manipulating them. You have also said, elsewhere, that I believe tall, man made doctrines.

As you claimed that you were going to leave this thread, are going against the rules of the forum, and mainstream Christian teaching, by saying that Jesus was not God, and are now beginning to be abusive; I wish you good day.

 

[Eloy Craft]

God in the form of flesh as the Son of God then. God was also with Israelite people during Exodus and in the first temple. We have the Holy Spirit now.

This might help clarify.

Did Jesus Christ Exist in the Form of God on Earth?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Philippians 2:
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Can you see the manipulations you have made to suit your thinking? Paul wrote 'in the form of God', not in very nature God!




We have Godhead of Three Persons. Who is the Head? He was fully man and divine as the Son of God.

The Greek version says

Philippians 2:6

6 who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,

6 ὃς (who) G3739 RelPro-NMS ἐν (in) G1722 Prep μορφῇ (form) G3444 N-DFS θεοῦ (God) G2316 N-GMS ὑπάρχων (existed) G5225 V-PPA-NMS οὐχ (not) G3756 Adv ἁρπαγμὸν (robbery) G725 N-AMS ἡγήσατο (regard) G2233 V-AIM-3S τὸ (the) G3588 Art-ANS εἶναι (be) G1510 V-PN ἴσα (equality) G2470 Adj-NNP θεῷ (God) G2316 N-DMS

Philippians 2:7

7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

7 ἀλλὰ (But) G235 Conj ἑαυτὸν (himself) G1438 RefPro-AM3S ἐκένωσεν (emptied) G2758 V-AIA-3S μορφὴν (form) G3444 N-AFS δούλου (bond-servant) G1401 N-GMS λαβών (taking) G2983 V-APA-NMS ἐν (in) G1722 Prep ὁμοιώματι (likeness) G3667 N-DNS ἀνθρώπων (men) G444 N-GMP γενόμενος (made) G1096 V-APM-NMS

What this is saying is that even tho He was God He did not think it was something to hold to so He lowered Himself as a servant of God. This is explaining why Jesus was subordinate to God The Father.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Righttruth appears to be denying the Incarnation on some level or another. Strange but not surprising. A lot of heresies eventually deny the Incarnation. Probably not all of them but a lot of them do. Good on you for seeing it for what it is.

I think you're right. Righttruth's acceptance of the Apostolic Creed and rejection of the Nicene creed places his/her's belief within a well known group of heresies.

Big L on my forehead. I forgot to thank you for the compliment. Thank you thecolorsblend, I do appreciate it.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Undoubtedly, nowhere Jesus Himself claimed to be God the Father.

John 14
Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Can you see the manipulations you have made to suit your thinking? Paul wrote 'in the form of God', not in very nature God!

Just so happened to be reading and I came across this and thought....this could be useful.

ARISTOTLE, AQUINAS, AND THE HISTORY OF QUICKENING By Kathleen J. Austin, B. Sc., B. A. Faculty of Religious Studies and the Biomedical Ethics Unit, McGill University, Montreal Submitted August 2003

the formal cause is the definition of the essence of a thing, its inherent order or form. The form defines what a thing is, and the process by which it comes to be. As stated by Aristotle, the formaI cause is "the logos of the thing's essence,,,7 "the form or the archetype, i.e. the definition of the essence, and its genera."

God in the form of flesh as the Son of God then.

Using the proper meaning of the word form, and replacing the word 'as' to 'is' to add precision to the whole statement, defines the Incarnation.

 

[BukiRob]

Why the books of the Catholic Bible are not found in Protestant Bible? Who gave authority to remove them? According to James faith without works dead, so it cannot be faith alone. Any claim of apostleship other than the chosen ones that include Matthias is considered falsehood by John!

Who gave authority to canonize them?

 

[BukiRob]

Jesus can never be simply man. He is both fully man and the Son of God. Jesus did not create the universe. The Word, before becoming flesh in Jesus, created all.

Well, according to scripture he did.

“IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. HE WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE.”

By the way, what "WORD" is John referring too?

 

[Righttruth]

Yes friend the Word was God and the Word became flesh and we have seen His (the Word’s) glory, the glory of The Father’s one and only Son. John was sent to testify about Him (the Word). So you see there are several indications that the Word is Jesus in John 1 alone. The reason it says the Word was God is because the statement is in the past tense speaking about in the beginning. It would be incorrect grammar to say in the beginning the Word is God. That’s why it says the Word was with God and the Word was God.

Yes, Jesus was Word becoming flesh. I have a concept of my own to accommodate that the Word was God. Word was God when it was in the thought process of God. The beginning of the Word was when God first spoke in Genesis 1:3.

 

[Righttruth]

“So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:14‬

The Son of God is the Word who was with God and was God in the beginning.

No dispute in that.

 

[Righttruth]

Yes it seems that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are somewhat hidden in the Old Testament. The only reference I can think of before Jeremiah is in Genesis 1:26

“Then God said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26‬

This is another indication that God was not alone during creation and before the creation of man. This also confirms what is said in John 1 that everything that was created was created through Him (the Word).

Yes, Jesus was not there in the OT times. But the Holy Spirit's existence was seen and experienced then also. And God was with the Word and the Holy Spirit during the creation of the universe.

 

[Righttruth]

As has been shown, Jesus' deity is Scriptural.
If you want to keep denying this, that's up to you.

I am not denying the deity of Jesus Christ. But that doesn't make the Son equal to and same as God the Father.

Nothing's wrong with the Apostle's creed.

It is a FACT, though, that the Nicene Creed was drawn up because the church wanted to clearly set out what they believed. This was important because there were false teachers who were denying Jesus' deity.
There were two erroneous teachings.
One group said that Jesus was God and had never been truly human. They believed that flesh/the body/matter was corrupt and therefore God could not inhabit it. This teaching led John to say, "every spirit that acknowledged that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God", 1 John 4:2. Christian Scientists (a cult) teach this today.
The other group taught that Jesus became God at his baptism and stopped being God before the crucifixion. This teaching led John, Paul and others to stress the eternal existence of Christ; that he was there in the beginning, before all things, through whom the universe was created, John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Philippians 2:6-8; Hebrews 1:2-3; 1 John 1:1. JWs (a cult) also deny the deity of Christ.

You are free, of course, to deny this FACT - that the creed was drawn up so that people could clearly see Scriptural truth in the face of false teaching. That doesn't negate the fact, it just means that you refuse to recognise it.
Again, it wasn't political; it wasn't that people said "we need to sit down and come up with some doctrine in order to create a new kind of church". It was setting out what people already believed and taught - that Christ had been fully human and fully divine.

In essence a wrong non-biblical Creed (Nicene) was formulated at the instigation of pagan emperor Constantine to work against a misunderstanding of what was revealed in the Scripture.

 

[Righttruth]

See the answer I have just given.

To want similar status to God is pride and is the sin that caused Satan to be thrown out of heaven.
As well as repeating the false teaching that Jesus was not both man and God - which you have been told is against the rules of this forum - are you now saying that Jesus sinned by wanting to claim divine status?

What matters, rules or truth? Jesus was only claiming His former status as the Word. That is not wrong.

 

[Righttruth]

Some translations of the Bible say "in nature God" and this agrees with other texts in Scripture, e.g John 1:1.
Jesus was God and was with God from the creation of the world. He had not taken on flesh or been given the human name, Jesus, but he was still the eternal word, John 1:1, sharing the Father's glory, John 17:5 and one with him.

How God's words can have different translation/interpretation? He was the Word before the creation of the universe. The Word became flesh in Jesus.

John 17:
1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Jesus is praying for the former glory of the Word before He became flesh in Jesus as the verses indicated above show that.

It COULD be the case that I have simply misunderstood some Scriptures - and yet you have judged, and accused, that I am manipulating them. You have also said, elsewhere, that I believe tall, man made doctrines.

Many biased translations are just manipulations. Yes, believing Nicene creed is believing a man-made doctrine instead of the inspired words by the Spirit.

As you claimed that you were going to leave this thread, are going against the rules of the forum, and mainstream Christian teaching, by saying that Jesus was not God, and are now beginning to be abusive; I wish you good day.

Yes, I had decided to leave, but there are others wanting to know more for the sake of truth. I don't lose anything by leaving this thread.

 

[Righttruth]

This might help clarify.

Did Jesus Christ Exist in the Form of God on Earth?

Thanks