Are Protestants dead?

[BNR32FAN]

Perhaps this may help:
John 5
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

You still didn’t address the scriptures I quoted in post #567 that say that Jesus is God.

 

[Strong in Him]

So people are making interpretations on their own against the revelation of Jesus! Of course, God had delegated certain authorities to Jesus as His Son. It doesn't mean He replaced God eventually. We go to God finally through Jesus.

I didn't say he replaced God.
He didn't need to; he was, and is, God

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where did Jesus claim that He was also God?

Here I’ll repost it for ya to make it easier to find.

““I am the Alpha and the Omega—the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come—the Almighty One.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:8‬

““Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12-13‬ ‭

““Listen to me, O family of Jacob, Israel my chosen one! I alone am God, the First and the Last.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:12‬ ‭

“This is what the Lord says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies: “I am the First and the Last; there is no other God.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭44:6‬

“Who has done such mighty deeds, summoning each new generation from the beginning of time? It is I, the Lord, the First and the Last. I alone am he.””
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭41:4‬

“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭

““Write this letter to the angel of the church in Smyrna. This is the message from the one who is the First and the Last, who was dead but is now alive:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:8‬

 

[Strong in Him]

Again, Jesus never claimed Himself as God the Father.

He never has been God the Father, he was, and is, God the Son.
Still God.

 

[Strong in Him]

Luther wanted the books of James, Hebrews and Revelation to be removed because they went against the concept of 'faith only' based solely on Paul's

So?
Doesn't matter what he wanted; they weren't removed.

I don't believe there is any contradiction nor that anyone "went against" Paul.

 

[Ronald]

You seem to be operating on the assumption that I am attempting to persuade you (or anybody) on the truth of my Catholic faith.

Now seems like a good time to disabuse you of that.

You are welcome to believe whatever you like. My intent in this discussion has been to explain what I believe and why I believe it. "Debating" me on this isn't really a worthwhile endeavor as I'm not really interested in contests. If you reject Purgatory, that's okay. You're entitled to believe what you want. But at least now you know what how I view the matter.

Which is all I really needed to accomplish.

So you dodged all the questions, post a disclaimer ... easy way out ... Because I guess you really don't know the details about Purgatory.
Seriously, what are the details of this place other than a Christian goes there after death to burn off sins and prepare them for heaven? It's not a debate or argument.,although you always start out that way. You like to do that until you are put up against the wall, then its Oh. I'm not interested in debating." Isn't it because you don't have anything else? Your scriptures please if you would?

Here is something I quoted.

1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

So is this it? Is this all the church has? St. Gregory's misunderstanding of 1 Cor. 3:15 and 1 Pet. 1:7 where it speaks about our works being tested with fire, somehow means this is in Purgatory? The fire that tests our works ON EARTH determines OUR REWARDS in Heaven. All our works (prepared by God) are spiritual, they are eternal because He does the work through us. All the other works that we've done in our lives don't last - they will burn up with the earth. Cars, homes, money, Grammies, Oscars, false philosophies, any works that were not of God, will not last -- that is all those verses are saying. It has nothing to do with Purgatory. It reflects our judgment, the judgment of our works. In other words, if you are a Priest or Pastor, and most of your works were to spread the gospel, feed and love His sheep, those works are eternal, because they are of the Holy Spirit. Our works for personal gain, selfish endeavors, worldly (which we all have a bit of) are destroyed and rightly so - instantly. The old saying goes, You can't take it with you! Only the spiritual things that matter pass on.


I said: ↑ Paul said, to be absent the body is to be present with the Lord.

You said: Is it your position then that the Lord isn't in Purgatory?

Why would think that?



The post about what happens after death,
I said:
It's either to
1.Heaven or
2.Hades temporarily to await the final judgment of destruction in the Lake if Fire.
You said: The reality of Purgatory doesn't change that paradigm.

3. A person's destination is fixed at the moment of death.
You said: The reality of Purgatory doesn't argue against that proposition.

4. Christ's atonement was sufficient to cleanse sins!

You said: The reality of Purgatory is not an argument against that proposition either.

5.The idea that something else needs to be done is implying that His sacrifice was not enough.
You said: The reality of Purgatory is not "something else" added to Our Lord's sacrifice.

6.Its a gift, we receive it or reject it, there are no second chances
You said: Purgatory is not a "second chance"


7. ...at least not in any of the 66 books that I read.
You said: Mine has 73 books. Looks somebody shortened yours.

8. Catholics believe in a faith plus works salvation.

You said: Not really.
... and Purgatory does not achieve only one purpose. But since we're on the subject of 1 Cor 3, that chapter does not mean nothing. Catholics believe it is a brief description of Purgatory.

With all those opinionated answers, you gave nothing to support them, only one scripture that has been misinterpreted by the some saint and council. This "reality" of Purgatory is allusive at best. Where does the RCC get it's evidence to construct such a place?

As I said, 1 Cor. 3 speaks of the righteous who are judged for works, regarding rewards in heaven only, not some suffering or additional burning of sins.
A Big Catholic Church error!

So, what else did you offer? I found your references of dreams, visions and quotes:

>>>Thecla (A.D. 160)
A woman has dream about her daughter wanting prayer to advance to a righteous place.


>>> The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 (A.D. 202).
So Perpetua (whoever he is) speaks about a vision of his seven year old brother (Dinocrates) who died. He saw him in a gloomy place suffering, thirsty and dirty. So he prays for him every day and night. Then another vision showed him clean, refreshed out of gloom and in a bright place out of judgment.
A vision, a dream of someone in the 3rd century ... and you believe this is from God? This strengthens your concept of Purgatory?

>>> offering sacrifices for the dead …-- Tertullian, The Crown 3:3 (A.D. 211)
Why? The sacrifice was already offered!!!

>>>[ Monogamy 10:1–2 (A.D. 216)]
Prayers for her husband to find rest for his soul … this is a common prayer, that God had already answered or not, it’s really too late. A prayer at death would be an acknowledgment/ confirmation that the person is with the Lord and has passed on into heaven, with thanks, that he would be missed, but that they will see him again!

So to all these references you gave, you added: "All of those are (or contain) allusions to Purgatory. All of them originate before 1439..."

So I gave you scriptures and you didn't respond to them.
1. "For by grace you have been saved through faith ..." John 20:29
"... and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works ..." Eph. 2:8, 9
PAID IN FULL AS WE SAY.
"Do you not know that you are the temple of God ... For the temple of God is holy ..." 1 Cor.3:16, 17 > Your spirit has been cleansed, otherwise God would not dwell in you.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Sprit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." Rom,. 8:1, 2

A question for You after reading those verses: Do you believe you are free or not? Because if you are free, Purgatory doesn't exist. If there is now no condemnation, a Purgatory cannot demand payment for sins.

Sin dwells in the members of our flesh. "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you ..." Rom. 8:9
"And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life..." Rom. 8:10
"just as he chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without blame before Him in love," Eph. 1:4
We are the elect, chosen, predestined, called, justified and will be glorified.
"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son ... He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Rom. 8:29, 30
"... Be faithful until death and I will crown you with life." Rev.2:10
He did the work, He paid the price. It is what He did that enables you to be presented holy and blameless.
"yet He has reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - if indeed you continue in the faith ..." Col. 1:22, 23

I think the RCC constructed this place called Purgatory to control Christians. To keep them insecure, obedient, etc. It was tied to the selling of indulgences. They pretended to have power through prayer to release these individuals from suffering in this non-existent place for charitable donations. What a crime, how manipulative.

 

[BukiRob]

There is a difference between calling Jesus as the Son of God and God. Again, Jesus never claimed Himself as God the Father.

I and the Father are 1 (echad)

 

[thecolorsblend]

So you dodged all the questions, post a disclaimer ... easy way out ...

I think I have been reasonably clear about that through this thread.

The issue is less about Protestant opinion and more about a clearer picture of Catholic understanding of this issue.

That's fair. But understand that my purpose was not to persuade so much as to explain using a visual aid.

Now, whether or not you interpret that 1 Corinthians 3 as a description of the form, function and purpose of Purgatory is completely irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is that's how Catholics interpret that passage.

Again, you don't have to agree. But that is what we think.

As I have said previously, the salient issue is that the Catholic Church believes those passages describe Purgatory. With respect, whether or not a non-Catholic understands Purgatory or agrees that such is what those passages describe is beside the point. The point is that Catholics do believe those passages relate to Purgatory.

My guess is there are probably more like the above in this thread, and probably in other threads too.

 

[Ronald]

I think I have been reasonably clear about that through this thread.

My guess is there are probably more like the above in this thread, and probably in other threads too.

Yep, that's all you got _ it's very weak. "I believe it, the Catholic Church believes it, that's all that matters." Its funny, do you answer all the discussions with that? It sounds like you cannot defend your faith, your doctrine. It sounds like a kid who says, "My dad is bigger than yours!"
Imagine entering any debate about Christianity vs another religion or atheism and you answered all the questions without giving a strong foundational basis with scriptures, but just said, "the Catholic church believes it ... Thats all that matters".
I reviewed most of your conversations in this thread with other posters. Your answers, like these above, are never supported with scripture, just with such absolute conviction. Only one scripture was vaguely mentioned, then the visions, dreams or statements from people long ago. These are not definitive and most scholars on our our side would conclude have nothing to do with Purgatory.
So where are the scriptures in your Bible of 73 books ... at least?

 

[Righttruth]

““I am the Alpha and the Omega—the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come—the Almighty One.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:8‬

““Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12-13‬ ‭

““Listen to me, O family of Jacob, Israel my chosen one! I alone am God, the First and the Last.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:12‬ ‭

“This is what the Lord says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies: “I am the First and the Last; there is no other God.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭44:6‬

“Who has done such mighty deeds, summoning each new generation from the beginning of time? It is I, the Lord, the First and the Last. I alone am he.””
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭41:4‬

“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭

““Write this letter to the angel of the church in Smyrna. This is the message from the one who is the First and the Last, who was dead but is now alive:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:8‬

Thank you for posting verses from Isaiah which I had not considered. I need more time to go through them. I will reply after sometime.

 

[Righttruth]

You still didn’t address the scriptures I quoted in post #567 that say that Jesus is God.

Yes, I am aware of that. I was a guest speaker at a Catholic church on 'Importance of life', so I did not get enough time to answer for that. I will certainly do that after further studies.

 

[Righttruth]

I didn't say he replaced God.
He didn't need to; he was, and is, God

God is infinite and timeless. He cannot be confined in a limited body and time.

 

[Righttruth]

Here I’ll repost it for ya to make it easier to find.

““I am the Alpha and the Omega—the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come—the Almighty One.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:8‬

““Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12-13‬ ‭

““Listen to me, O family of Jacob, Israel my chosen one! I alone am God, the First and the Last.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:12‬ ‭

“This is what the Lord says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies: “I am the First and the Last; there is no other God.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭44:6‬

“Who has done such mighty deeds, summoning each new generation from the beginning of time? It is I, the Lord, the First and the Last. I alone am he.””
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭41:4‬

“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭

““Write this letter to the angel of the church in Smyrna. This is the message from the one who is the First and the Last, who was dead but is now alive:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:8‬

No need. I will reply after a thorough study.

 

[Righttruth]

He never has been God the Father, he was, and is, God the Son.
Still God.

Bible indicates clearly the words 'God the Father' and 'Son of God'. Where do you find 'God the Son'? That is blasphemy!

 

[Righttruth]

So?
Doesn't matter what he wanted; they weren't removed.

I don't believe there is any contradiction nor that anyone "went against" Paul.

Why the books of the Catholic Bible are not found in Protestant Bible? Who gave authority to remove them? According to James faith without works dead,so it cannot be faith alone. Any claim of apostleship other than the chosen ones that includes Matthias is considered falsehood by John!

 

[Righttruth]

I and the Father are 1 (echad)

That is in essence.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No need. I will reply after a thorough study.

Please ignore the screaming emoji friend. I just think it looks funny especially when I’m saying nice things to people. Lol

 

[Strong in Him]

God is infinite and timeless. He cannot be confined in a limited body and time.

He can if he chooses to be.
For a few years, God, in Jesus, chose to become of of us - he chose to limit himself, to become human, to experience our lives, our emotions, our pain and disappointments.
So when Jesus intercedes for us, we know that he knows exactly what we need, and how we feel - because he has been there and felt it himself. When he mediates between us and God, it as as one who is God and who has been man. He knows what it is like, the temptations, stresses etc we have to face, and can stand beside us as one who has experienced them all.

 

[Strong in Him]

Bible indicates clearly the words 'God the Father' and 'Son of God'. Where do you find 'God the Son'? That is blasphemy!

It could be said that it's blasphemy to believe that Jesus is lesser than he is - to say that he is ONLY man. The bible makes it clear that he was with God from the beginning, John 1:1-2, 1 John 1:1, and that the whole universe was created through him, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16. Jesus himself said that he is one with the Father, and shared the Father's glory before the world began, John 17:5.

 

[Strong in Him]

According to James faith without works dead,so it cannot be faith alone.

James teaches that if you say you have faith, then it should show itself in your actions.
Faith results in works - our works are because we are saved, not things we do in order to be saved. Otherwise, anyone who received Jesus and was run over by a truck the next day, or had a heart attack 5 minutes later, would not be saved. Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise with him - what works could he do, nailed to a cross? Yet the Saviour said that he would be with him.