Are Protestants dead?

[Righttruth]

I take that to mean yes. Which means you don't believe the part I bolded.
To you the promise of the Holy Spirit isn't to an us but to a you.

The Holy Spirit is not available to Tom, Dick and Harry who are unwilling to repent and change their lives.

 

[Righttruth]

Another logical fallacy. Strawman argument. Lip service love you can refute but there is no evidence of that kind of love in my post. Unless the Apostles I quoted are wrong like everyone else is to you.

Does Paul qualify for apostleship?

 

[thecolorsblend]

I don't deny the incarnation of Jesus. But that doesn't equate Him with God the Father.

Whatever you say.

 

[Strong in Him]

If either of these groups had refused being baptized were they truly inspired by the Holy Spirit?

I'm talking about people who have a genuine encounter with Jesus Christ, receive him are born again and filled with the Spirit, but who have no time to be baptised, put their faith into practice or anything else, because they die, or are killed, soon afterwards.

They may genuinely desire to belong to a church, get baptised etc, but can't - I don't believe their salvation is negated, or taken away, because of this.

 

[Strong in Him]

He came down to transform us, not to be dragged down to our lives and thinking!

He didn't get "dragged down" to our lives - he CHOSE to share them and come into them.

You are not recognizing holy God the Father, but calling Jesus as God!

And whether you like it or not, you are disrespecting God by not honouring his Son.

Mainstream churches - in fact probably most churches - clergy, commentators, authors, and the Mods and a lot of members on this forum, recognise and accept the Nicene creed and deity of Christ. You don't, so you are standing apart from all these groups.
Presumably you have some reason, apart from pride, for saying that all these thousands/millions of people are wrong and your interpretation of Scripture is correct. But I hope you're 1,000,000% certain, because you're the one who will have to face God and explain it to him, and what will you do if HE says you're wrong?

 

[Strong in Him]

The sign of the Holy Spirit within you is the fruit.

If the Holy Spirit truly lives in you, sooner of later you will begin to show the fruit of the Spirit - which is love, joy, peace, patience, etc etc, Galatians 5:22-23.
Because the Spirit is God, the fruit you show will be godly, or agape, love, godly joy, the peace of God etc. We often talk about "the fruits of our labours" or that a project "bears fruit, but it is not the same. Without the Holy Spirit we cannot bear this kind of fruit, and THIS is the fruit that endures.

Not tall claims!

The Bible makes tall claims now?

Only those who endure till the end will be saved. Till then one has to strive towards perfection.

No.
We are saved immediately from sin and have eternal life, but salvation is an ongoing process - it comes from the same word as the word for wholeness. If we fall away from, or reject, our faith, we may not be saved, or may lose some of the rewards due to us. But our works do not produce perfection. If I became paralysed tomorrow, was in a wheelchair and unable to DO anything, I would still be saved and still a Christian.

 

[Righttruth]

““I am the Alpha and the Omega—the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come—the Almighty One.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:8‬

““Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12-13‬ ‭

““Listen to me, O family of Jacob, Israel my chosen one! I alone am God, the First and the Last.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:12‬ ‭

“This is what the Lord says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies: “I am the First and the Last; there is no other God.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭44:6‬

“Who has done such mighty deeds, summoning each new generation from the beginning of time? It is I, the Lord, the First and the Last. I alone am he.””
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭41:4‬

“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭

““Write this letter to the angel of the church in Smyrna. This is the message from the one who is the First and the Last, who was dead but is now alive:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:8‬

My question was did Jesus claim Himself to be God? For that you have quoted the verses to support His God-ship. Undoubtedly, nowhere Jesus Himself claimed to be God the Father. Most of the time He was claiming to be the Son of Man. Only once he agreed that He is the Son of God. Yet I want to consider your verses quoted along with my understanding. Please remember that God’s ways and thoughts are different. He cannot be easily understood. Jesus came to preach that is easier to understand but difficult to follow!
You will see that the titles Almighty and Mighty are being used for God. Don’t you see the difference here? For me God the Father is Infinitely Mighty God. You also know the ‘Word’ was God. Perhaps, Almighty title applies to Him, and Mighty title applies to Jesus Christ. God has no beginning nor end. He cannot be visualized as a part of complete alphabets of a language. Nevertheless, this fits well for the ‘Word’.
Let us consider the following verse: ““I am the Alpha and the Omega—the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come—the Almighty One.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:8‬
There is a complete period with Amen in the previous verse 7. In what way this verse 8 is a declaration of Jesus. It is just a quote from the Scripture that very well connects to the ‘Word’.

““Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12-13‬ ‭
Jesus is no longer in flesh with us. It may be the ‘Word’ again because Jesus indicated that He is going to come in the glory of His Father:

Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.

Also you notice Jesus is not claiming that He is returning as God the Father.

““Listen to me, O family of Jacob, Israel my chosen one! I alone am God, the First and the Last.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:12‬ ‭

“This is what the Lord says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies: “I am the First and the Last; there is no other God.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭44:6‬

“Who has done such mighty deeds, summoning each new generation from the beginning of time? It is I, the Lord, the First and the Last. I alone am he.””
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭41:4‬

All these could be referred to the ‘Word’.

“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭

Again it refers to the ‘Word’. It may be appropriate to consider the next verse also:

18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

We know ‘Word’ became flesh to die to raise again. Therefore, this doesn’t refer to Jesus Christ of physical form.

““Write this letter to the angel of the church in Smyrna. This is the message from the one who is the First and the Last, who was dead but is now alive:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:8‬

So, again this doesn’t make Jesus as God the Father.

 

[Strong in Him]

Manifestation or incarnation is not fully God. Arm of a chair is not a full chair. Jesus was divine too as He was fully man.

Jesus was fully man and fully God.

You have said yourself that the Word created all things; Jesus was the Word made flesh, John 1:14. He didn't stop being God when he was made flesh - that is why he prayed, "Father, glorify me with the glory that I had with you before the world began", John 17:5.

 

[Strong in Him]

I don't deny the incarnation of Jesus. But that doesn't equate Him with God the Father.

The Incarnation is the Word made flesh; Jesus, who was the eternal Word, God, and yet was born as a human.
When we say that a person becomes something, this usually means that they stop being something else. But that's not how it was for Jesus. Paul says that Jesus was,
"in very nature God, ..... but took on the nature of a servant, and was found in appearance as a man." Philippians 2:6-8

Jesus was not God the Father, as I have said; there are 3 persons of the Trinity. But he was divine.
To say otherwise is to say that either, he was ONLY a man with a sinful human nature, or that there are two Gods, God the Father and Jesus who was God for a while and then stopped being fully divine but became a lesser god. That is a JW belief.

 

[BNR32FAN]

My question was did Jesus claim Himself to be God? For that you have quoted the verses to support His God-ship. Undoubtedly, nowhere Jesus Himself claimed to be God the Father. Most of the time He was claiming to be the Son of Man. Only once he agreed that He is the Son of God. Yet I want to consider your verses quoted along with my understanding. Please remember that God’s ways and thoughts are different. He cannot be easily understood. Jesus came to preach that is easier to understand but difficult to follow!
You will see that the titles Almighty and Mighty are being used for God. Don’t you see the difference here? For me God the Father is Infinitely Mighty God. You also know the ‘Word’ was God. Perhaps, Almighty title applies to Him, and Mighty title applies to Jesus Christ. God has no beginning nor end. He cannot be visualized as a part of complete alphabets of a language. Nevertheless, this fits well for the ‘Word’.
Let us consider the following verse: ““I am the Alpha and the Omega—the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come—the Almighty One.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:8‬
There is a complete period with Amen in the previous verse 7. In what way this verse 8 is a declaration of Jesus. It is just a quote from the Scripture that very well connects to the ‘Word’.

““Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12-13‬ ‭
Jesus is no longer in flesh with us. It may be the ‘Word’ again because Jesus indicated that He is going to come in the glory of His Father:

Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.

Also you notice Jesus is not claiming that He is returning as God the Father.

““Listen to me, O family of Jacob, Israel my chosen one! I alone am God, the First and the Last.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:12‬ ‭

“This is what the Lord says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies: “I am the First and the Last; there is no other God.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭44:6‬

“Who has done such mighty deeds, summoning each new generation from the beginning of time? It is I, the Lord, the First and the Last. I alone am he.””
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭41:4‬

All these could be referred to the ‘Word’.

“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭

Again it refers to the ‘Word’. It may be appropriate to consider the next verse also:

18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

We know ‘Word’ became flesh to die to raise again. Therefore, this doesn’t refer to Jesus Christ of physical form.

““Write this letter to the angel of the church in Smyrna. This is the message from the one who is the First and the Last, who was dead but is now alive:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:8‬

So, again this doesn’t make Jesus as God the Father.

God The Father is not the Word. John 1:14 and the Word became flesh. God The Father did not become flesh. Jesus became flesh. Since we know this we can understand that Jesus is the Word which is God. Jesus is not God The Father. They are different personalities but still one God. Jesus is also still flesh. He ascended to heaven both body and spirit and He will return in the flesh.

 

[BNR32FAN]

My question was did Jesus claim Himself to be God? For that you have quoted the verses to support His God-ship. Undoubtedly, nowhere Jesus Himself claimed to be God the Father. Most of the time He was claiming to be the Son of Man. Only once he agreed that He is the Son of God. Yet I want to consider your verses quoted along with my understanding. Please remember that God’s ways and thoughts are different. He cannot be easily understood. Jesus came to preach that is easier to understand but difficult to follow!
You will see that the titles Almighty and Mighty are being used for God. Don’t you see the difference here? For me God the Father is Infinitely Mighty God. You also know the ‘Word’ was God. Perhaps, Almighty title applies to Him, and Mighty title applies to Jesus Christ. God has no beginning nor end. He cannot be visualized as a part of complete alphabets of a language. Nevertheless, this fits well for the ‘Word’.
Let us consider the following verse: ““I am the Alpha and the Omega—the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come—the Almighty One.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:8‬
There is a complete period with Amen in the previous verse 7. In what way this verse 8 is a declaration of Jesus. It is just a quote from the Scripture that very well connects to the ‘Word’.

““Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12-13‬ ‭
Jesus is no longer in flesh with us. It may be the ‘Word’ again because Jesus indicated that He is going to come in the glory of His Father:

Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.

Also you notice Jesus is not claiming that He is returning as God the Father.

““Listen to me, O family of Jacob, Israel my chosen one! I alone am God, the First and the Last.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:12‬ ‭

“This is what the Lord says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies: “I am the First and the Last; there is no other God.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭44:6‬

“Who has done such mighty deeds, summoning each new generation from the beginning of time? It is I, the Lord, the First and the Last. I alone am he.””
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭41:4‬

All these could be referred to the ‘Word’.

“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭

Again it refers to the ‘Word’. It may be appropriate to consider the next verse also:

18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

We know ‘Word’ became flesh to die to raise again. Therefore, this doesn’t refer to Jesus Christ of physical form.

““Write this letter to the angel of the church in Smyrna. This is the message from the one who is the First and the Last, who was dead but is now alive:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:8‬

So, again this doesn’t make Jesus as God the Father.

“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:23‬ ‭ASV‬‬

 

[thecolorsblend]

My question was did Jesus claim Himself to be God? For that you have quoted the verses to support His God-ship. Undoubtedly, nowhere Jesus Himself claimed to be God the Father. Most of the time He was claiming to be the Son of Man. Only once he agreed that He is the Son of God. Yet I want to consider your verses quoted along with my understanding. Please remember that God’s ways and thoughts are different. He cannot be easily understood. Jesus came to preach that is easier to understand but difficult to follow!

My objections to this entire line is as follows:

01- What you seem to be saying up there is at such variance with historical Christology that I don't know that you're even complying with Nicene Christianity anymore.

02- I use conditional language like "seem to be" because if you've outright said in plain English what you believe, I must have missed it. You've thrown scriptural passage all over the place, you've somewhat articulated what you don't believe, you've spoken a bit in riddles, etc, but you haven't really said what you DO believe regarding Our Lord.

03- This is every reason why I will never really hold any intellectual respect for unbiblical ideas "sola scriptura". Because strange ideas like you seem to be dabbling with are practically guaranteed to occur and there is no backstop for them.

tl;dr- This is why I realize I could no longer be Protestant.

 

[Albion]

03- This is every reason why I will never really hold any intellectual respect for unbiblical ideas "sola scriptura". Because strange ideas like you seem to be dabbling with are practically guaranteed to occur and there is no backstop for them.

Sola Scriptura cannot reasonably be blamed for this sort of thing, however. Sola Scriptura does not make any recommendations about how anyone is to read the Bible or whether he is going to understand it.

I wish people would appreciate that Sola Scriptura, especially after innumerable explanations have been made here, does not guarantee that everyone will get it right-- not any more than everyone who belongs to one of the Catholic churches will understand Holy Tradition.

 

[Righttruth]

He didn't get "dragged down" to our lives - he CHOSE to share them and come into them.

As the Son of God.

And whether you like it or not, you are disrespecting God by not honouring his Son.

No way. I take it my responsibility to believe and honor His words. You don't seem to do that with your man-made doctrines!

Mainstream churches - in fact probably most churches - clergy, commentators, authors, and the Mods and a lot of members on this forum, recognise and accept the Nicene creed and deity of Christ. You don't, so you are standing apart from all these groups.
Presumably you have some reason, apart from pride, for saying that all these thousands/millions of people are wrong and your interpretation of Scripture is correct. But I hope you're 1,000,000% certain, because you're the one who will have to face God and explain it to him, and what will you do if HE says you're wrong?

What is wrong with the Apostles Creed? Why non-Biblical additions in Nicene Creed?
Matthew 7
13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

[Righttruth]

If the Holy Spirit truly lives in you, sooner of later you will begin to show the fruit of the Spirit - which is love, joy, peace, patience, etc etc, Galatians 5:22-23.
Because the Spirit is God, the fruit you show will be godly, or agape, love, godly joy, the peace of God etc. We often talk about "the fruits of our labours" or that a project "bears fruit, but it is not the same. Without the Holy Spirit we cannot bear this kind of fruit, and THIS is the fruit that endures.

No, you need to cultivate the fruit of the Spirit. See John 15:2

The Bible makes tall claims now?

More than that, you are!

No.
We are saved immediately from sin and have eternal life, but salvation is an ongoing process - it comes from the same word as the word for wholeness. If we fall away from, or reject, our faith, we may not be saved, or may lose some of the rewards due to us. But our works do not produce perfection. If I became paralysed tomorrow, was in a wheelchair and unable to DO anything, I would still be saved and still a Christian.

So you have conveniently nullified What Jesus said regarding salvation at the end of our life. Are you Jesus to decide on that in advance?

 

[Righttruth]

Jesus was fully man and fully God.

You have said yourself that the Word created all things; Jesus was the Word made flesh, John 1:14. He didn't stop being God when he was made flesh - that is why he prayed, "Father, glorify me with the glory that I had with you before the world began", John 17:5.

Where did Jesus claim that He was fully God? Do you know all the attributes of God the Father to decide on that? Are you all knowing god? Jesus was Word before and created the universe, and He wanted similar status with God after His death and resurrection.

 

[Righttruth]

The Incarnation is the Word made flesh; Jesus, who was the eternal Word, God, and yet was born as a human.
When we say that a person becomes something, this usually means that they stop being something else. But that's not how it was for Jesus. Paul says that Jesus was,
"in very nature God, ..... but took on the nature of a servant, and was found in appearance as a man." Philippians 2:6-8

Philippians 2:
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Can you see the manipulations you have made to suit your thinking? Paul wrote 'in the form of God', not in very nature God!

Jesus was not God the Father, as I have said; there are 3 persons of the Trinity. But he was divine.
To say otherwise is to say that either, he was ONLY a man with a sinful human nature, or that there are two Gods, God the Father and Jesus who was God for a while and then stopped being fully divine but became a lesser god. That is a JW belief.

We have Godhead of Three Persons. Who is the Head? He was fully man and divine as the Son of God.

 

[Righttruth]

God The Father is not the Word. John 1:14 and the Word became flesh. God The Father did not become flesh. Jesus became flesh. Since we know this we can understand that Jesus is the Word which is God. Jesus is not God The Father. They are different personalities but still one God. Jesus is also still flesh. He ascended to heaven both body and spirit and He will return in the flesh.

All OK, expecting the statement that Word is God. John said 'Word was God'. The Three Persons in the Trinity form Godhead. Head is God the Father.

 

[Righttruth]

God The Father is not the Word. John 1:14 and the Word became flesh. God The Father did not become flesh. Jesus became flesh. Since we know this we can understand that Jesus is the Word which is God. Jesus is not God The Father. They are different personalities but still one God. Jesus is also still flesh. He ascended to heaven both body and spirit and He will return in the flesh.

See above

 

[Righttruth]

“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:23‬ ‭ASV‬‬

God in the form of flesh as the Son of God then. God was also with Israelite people during Exodus and in the first temple. We have the Holy Spirit now.