Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

[seventysevens]

These polls do not speak to the validity of either point of view,

True "These polls do not speak to the validity of either point of view,"
When I was young pre-trib was the leading position held - however when people who hold
the office of Pastor/Preacher change the polls will change to reflect the opinions of those who are in the Office.
Just as in politics when people who run for and obtain political office don't tell the public if they are homosexual/lesbian , but as time goes by and more homosexual/lesbian politicians obtain office in Congress they influence the law making process and now have been able to create laws in favor of homosexual/lesbian agendas and the more homosexual/lesbian politicians there are the more the laws become in their favor ,

In today's churches more than 90% of all Pastor/Preachers refuse to teach prophecy as more amil are in the Pastorship/Preacher roles and have a different view , but that does not mean they are correct merely because they are Pastor/Preacher , Jesus spoke about people who said " we cast out demons in Your name " and Jesus said to them , I do not know you !

In bible times those who chose to serve in ministry were not concerned about making it rich financially , they loved the Lord .
Today many are in ministry seek to make big dollars telling people to give 1000 dollars and God will reward their return by 100 fold , while they take the money given to them and but mansions , expensive cars , and expensive Jets ,

 

[Major1]

I am not proposing only one resurrection because one is a resurrection to life and the other a ressurection to judgment and death (2nd death). Understanding the other person's position is key to a good debate.

Exactly! There are in fact TWO resurrections!

 

[Major1]

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.

.

Of course that is a redundant comment. Every single person who gets to heaven will be because of the blood of the Lamb so your comment is really not news breaking.

The Lamb of God killed animals, shedding their blood so that Adam and Eve could be covered. Every single sacrifice that was killed and had its blood shed was a picture of what Jesus was going to do.

However my friend, the people in view in Rev. 12 are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ. According to the pre-tribulation Rapture theology the CHUCH was removed from the earth and then those who were not Raptured had to come to Christ the same way YOU did except they had to keep the commandments of God along with faith in Christ.

Revelation 14:12..........
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".

The group of people in Rev. 12:11 are MYTERS who in fact believed upon the Lord Jesus after the Rapture.

 

[Major1]

Rev_1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev_2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Rev_2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

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God bless your sweet heart. You are working so very hard to prove a position that has no legs to stand on. With all due respect to you and I do not mean to harm you in any way, but it seems to me that you are just picking out Scriptures it seems at random to support YOUR OPINION.

For example. Rev. 1:9 DOES NOT refer to the Great Tribulation as you are trying to force it to say.

John was in TROUBLE! Domitian, the Roman Emperor had placed him in prison on Patmos. John had been active in the church at Ephesus and he had been teaching and giving out the Word of God. HE WAS BEING PERSECUTED AND WAS IN A STATE OF TRIBULATION as he was being afflicted for his faith and work.

TRIBULATION in that verse is a word that explains his condition my friend.
He was referring to and talking about the persecution that was already befalling believers of his day.


Then you do the same thing in Revelation 2:9.
The word TRIBULATION contextually here means TROUBLE.

The awful persecution of the church by the Romans is NOT THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!!

Then Revelation 2:10 is exactly the same thing. As for the 10 DAYS, that actually confirms what I am telling you. Persecution = TRIBULATION which is in fact TROUBLE.

There were 10 intense periods, dispensations of TIME (DAYS) of persecution/Tribulation by the Romans to the church.

1. Nero.....................64-68 AD.
2. Domitian...............95-96
3. Trajan...................104-117
4. Marcus Aurelius......161-180
5. Severus.................200-211
6. Maximinius.............235-237
7. Decius...................250-253
8. Valerian.................257-260
9. Aurelian.................270-275
10.Diocletian..............303-313

Now do not accept what I am saying. YOU do the work. Look all this up and see what you find.

 

[Archmike]

Again you show you have no real understanding of scripture and you are revealing your
arrogance First the 144,000 are listed as Israel tribes not the church!
Saying they are Christians is only those who wish to force scripture to mean something other than what it says !
The Church of Philadelphia represents Christians that have keep Jesus word as the other churches didn't - It shows that those churches represent what the end time church would be like compared to the church of that time back in 95 AD
But also your foolish claims about the 144000 and medal of honor , not serving a day of service is lunacy and only 6000 makes no sense at all ,
your opinion shows that while chewing - you choked and need a doctor

There are two groups of 144 k. That's correct, 2 !

144 k "firstfruits" ( who are Christian )
144 k Jews ( 12k ea from 12 tribes )

The two separate 144 k ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME.

Furthermore, There are TWO Witnesses:

One witness is Christian ( Revelation John )
One Witness is Jewish ( Elijah )

 

[Archmike]

Again you show you have no real understanding of scripture and you are revealing your
arrogance First the 144,000 are listed as Israel tribes not the church!
Saying they are Christians is only those who wish to force scripture to mean something other than what it says !
The Church of Philadelphia represents Christians that have keep Jesus word as the other churches didn't - It shows that those churches represent what the end time church would be like compared to the church of that time back in 95 AD
But also your foolish claims about the 144000 and medal of honor , not serving a day of service is lunacy and only 6000 makes no sense at all ,
your opinion shows that while chewing - you choked and need a doctor

There are two groups of 144 k. That's correct, 2 !

144 k "firstfruits" ( who are Christian )
144 k Jews ( 12k ea from 12 tribes )

The two separate 144 k ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME.

Furthermore, There are TWO Witnesses:

One witness is Christian ( Revelation John )
One Witness is Jewish ( Elijah )

 

[Archmike]

Now, if there is just ONE GENERAL Resurrection as what you are proposing, then why does the Bible specifically say "THE FIRST RESURRECTION' and then later specifically say....."THE SECOND DEATH".

The Philadelphia Church is an AGE or a TIME frame. Why would anyone be challenged on believing that they think they are in that TIME frame.

Then on top of that there are a lot of people who have worked and taught and preached the gospel and in fact are SAVED and IMO we have every ability to tell others why we are what we are. In fact we will receive Medals of Honor!!!!!!!!

1 - CROWN 1 - CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS— - 2 Tim 4:8
2 - CROWN 2 - INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN— 1 Cor 9:25-27
3 - CROWN 3 - CROWN OF LIFE— Rev 2:10
4 - CROWN 4 - CROWN OF GLORY— 1 Pet 5:2-4
5 - CROWN 5 - CROWN OF REJOICING— SOUL WIN 1 Thess 2:19, Dan 12:3

Now for your thinking on the 144K.
They are not Christians at all my friend!
They are not 1st Fruits.
They are in fact 144,000 Jewish, Male, Virgins.

I have no earthly idea what you are talking about with only 6000 being in the Philidelphia church. If you are suggesting that only 6000 of the Philadelphia church will be Raptured, YOU are very, very mistaken.

It is my belief that the true Christian's of our generation make up the Philadelphian church age. When the true believers (Philadelphian church age)of ALL denominations are raptured, the Lacodicean church will then begin on earth, spewed out by God to endure the Tribulation Period. This church claims it has need of nothing; it is self-satisfied and self-complacent. Boasting of wealth and methods of organization, it fails to realize the absence of spiritual life in its midst. It is organizational religion in its purest form. Christ informs them that they are utterly insensitive to their condition.

There are two groups of 144 k. That's correct, 2 !

144 k "firstfruits" ( who are Christian )
144 k Jews ( 12k ea from 12 tribes )

The two separate 144 k ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME.

Furthermore, There are TWO Witnesses:

One witness is Christian ( Revelation John )
One Witness is Jewish ( Elijah )

 

[seventysevens]

There are two groups of 144 k. That's correct, 2 !

144 k "firstfruits" ( who are Christian )
144 k Jews ( 12k ea from 12 tribes )

The two separate 144 k ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME.

Furthermore, There are TWO Witnesses:

One witness is Christian ( Revelation John )
One Witness is Jewish ( Elijah )

So you did not show any evidence of your claim , hmmm...

 

[Major1]

There are two groups of 144 k. That's correct, 2 !

144 k "firstfruits" ( who are Christian )
144 k Jews ( 12k ea from 12 tribes )

The two separate 144 k ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME.

Furthermore, There are TWO Witnesses:

One witness is Christian ( Revelation John )
One Witness is Jewish ( Elijah )

Do you have any Scriptures which support you opinion????

Where would I find your 144K "first fruits Christians?
Where would I find your TWO SEPERATE groups of 144K???

Yes, there will be TWO Witnesses.

Revelation 11:3-6 says the following:
“And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth."

Now again........where are the Scriptures which say that One of these TWO is a Christian and ONE is a Jew.

Where are the Scriptures that say ONE id John and ONE is Elijah.

Without any Scriptural validation my friend, I can not give your opinion any value at all.

And on top of all that, you did not respond to the question I asked you of..........
"Now, if there is just ONE GENERAL Resurrection as what you are proposing, then why does the Bible specifically say "THE FIRST RESURRECTION' and then later specifically say....."THE SECOND DEATH".

 

[Archmike]

So you did not show any evidence of your claim , hmmm...

Think it's self-explanatory...

Christ would be shown with "firstfruits" WHO ARE CHRISTIAN, that is, followers of Christ.

144 k from the 12 tribes are OBVIOUSLY Jewish


Likewise, with the 2 witnesses...

One is Revelation John ( Rev 10:11 )
One is Elijah ( Malichi 4: 5 & 6 )

 

[Archmike]

Do you have any Scriptures which support you opinion????

Where would I find your 144K "first fruits Christians?
Where would I find your TWO SEPERATE groups of 144K???

Yes, there will be TWO Witnesses.

Revelation 11:3-6 says the following:
“And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth."

Now again........where are the Scriptures which say that One of these TWO is a Christian and ONE is a Jew.

Where are the Scriptures that say ONE id John and ONE is Elijah.

Without any Scriptural validation my friend, I can not give your opinion any value at all.

And on top of all that, you did not respond to the question I asked you of..........
"Now, if there is just ONE GENERAL Resurrection as what you are proposing, then why does the Bible specifically say "THE FIRST RESURRECTION' and then later specifically say....."THE SECOND DEATH".

See my answer to 77's....

 

[Archmike]

There is a recurring pattern in The Revelation, gentleman....

Christian fulfillment, Jewish fulfillment
Christian fulfillment, Jewish fulfillment
Christian fulfillment, Jewish fulfillment.

Both religions will see their fulfillments in these End Days coming.....the mystery of God shall be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets. Rev 10: 7

 

[Archmike]

Furthermore....the largest percentage of the 144k first fruits and Jews currently sleep. Therefore, those called in this generation DO NOT TOTAL 144 K each. They total an equal amount in this generation distributed over all of Jewish and Christian history.

Do you think this ET's generation has ALL THE NUMBERS ? If anything, this ET's generation is less worthy.

 

[Archmike]

Jews flee to the hills when the AOD is committed, and await Rature. 2 shall be in the field, one shall be taken, one shall not. Come down off the housetops and do not gather your clothes !

Christians flee The Mark, and are on-the-run during the GT, and await The Rapture 3.5 years later....

Jewish fulfillment, Christian fulfillment.....

 

[Major1]

See my answer to 77's....

What does that mean Mike????? 77's are WHAT ???

Never mind. I just got it that you were talking about Seventyseven's.


Why not just say that???

 

[Major1]

Furthermore....the largest percentage of the 144k first fruits and Jews currently sleep. Therefore, those called in this generation DO NOT TOTAL 144 K each. They total an equal amount in this generation distributed over all of Jewish and Christian history.

Do you think this ET's generation has ALL THE NUMBERS ? If anything, this ET's generation is less worthy.

Again...........what are the Scriptures for your comment?????

"Worthy" has nothing to do with anything my brother. NO ONE IS WORHY!

 

[Major1]

There is a recurring pattern in The Revelation, gentleman....

Christian fulfillment, Jewish fulfillment
Christian fulfillment, Jewish fulfillment
Christian fulfillment, Jewish fulfillment.

Both religions will see their fulfillments in these End Days coming.....the mystery of God shall be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets. Rev 10: 7

Mike. I love ya man but your theology is all over the place.

Rev. 10:7 is the 7th Trumpet and it brings an end to the previously announced mystery by God's prophets.

10:7 is not to hidden truth but to the fulfillment of Old Test. passages which refer to the return of Messiah Jesus and His establishing the kingdom of righteousness.

The 7th Trumpet Judgment introduces the set of 7 Bowl judgments of God's wrath which is seen on Rev. 16.

 

[Major1]

Jews flee to the hills when the AOD is committed, and await Rature. 2 shall be in the field, one shall be taken, one shall not. Come down off the housetops and do not gather your clothes !

Christians flee The Mark, and are on-the-run during the GT, and await The Rapture 3.5 years later....

Jewish fulfillment, Christian fulfillment.....

Mike.......the Church did not replace Israel. The Jews will flee that is true when the A/C declares himself to be God, but they are NOT in a view of being Raptured.

The Church is removed at the Rapture allowing God to focus on one thing.....Bringing Israel to the Messiah.

The church is NOT being talked about in Mathew 24 & 25 Mike. The church did not exist when Jesus was giving those words and He was speaking to the Jews not the church. There for there can not be a Rapture of the Jews at all.

Many of the Jews will survive the Tribulation as humans and they will go into the 1000 year kingdom as will bring forth human children.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Mike.......the Church did not replace Israel.

Incorrect. Replacement Theology is a red herring. It is the Inclusive theology what is in view. THe church did not replace Israel, it was ingraft into same covenant tree Isreal and make Gentiles the spiritual Jews in Christ.

The Jews will flee that is true when the A/C declares himself to be God, but they are NOT in a view of being Raptured.

No such Scripture support.

The Church is removed at the Rapture allowing God to focus on one thing.....Bringing Israel to the Messiah.

No such Scripture support. There will be no national redemption for Israel.

Romans 11:25-27
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The Greek word for "then" is [epeita], a conjunctive adverb used to illustrate a time reference. The word is used when speaking about a sequence of events. For example, one thing happens and then another thing happens. e.g.:

James 4:14

• "Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."

If God was actually declaring that the Gentiles would be saved and then the Jews, He most certainly would have used that word. Being perfect and omniscient and having His word in perfect harmony, He didn't! Because it would contradict the rest of the Bible.

By contrast to the word then, the Greek word translated "so" is [houto], a demonstrative adjective meaning "in this manner," or "thus." This is the Word that God divinely inspired used because it is a conclusion indicator. In other words, and so - That is, in this manner (when the abundance of Gentiles shall come in) all Israel shall be saved. So to say that the words "so" and "then" are saying the same thing is to dabble in absurdity! There is a good reason that the Dispensationalist does that, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with sound hermeneutics, studied theology or even sound reasoning. It is blind faith.

The church is NOT being talked about in Mathew 24 & 25 Mike.

Oh yeah. THe Olivet Discourse is not for Jews in AD 70 nor modern national Isarel. It is for New Testament Congregation, the church.

The church did not exist when Jesus was giving those words and He was speaking to the Jews not the church.

False.

Many of the Jews will survive the Tribulation as humans and they will go into the 1000 year kingdom as will bring forth human children.

There is no such thing as 7 years tribulation and 1,000 millennial kingdom. These are the invention of Dispensationalists.

 

[Archmike]

What does that mean Mike????? 77's are WHAT ???

Never mind. I just got it that you were talking about Seventyseven's.


Why not just say that???

Was having a little fun with his name......sorry