• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Are Protestants dead?

Eloy Craft

Myth only points, Truth happened!
Site Supporter
Jan 9, 2018
3,132
871
Chandler
✟431,808.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The three scriptures i posted prove we have been purified in this life. How does your understanding of purgatory apply to those scriptures?
You know, where the rubber meets the road on this one. How many people you know of died purified? What is it to be purified? All sins forgiven? All sins forgiven and no more inclination to sin? Does purified mean like Adam and Eve? Or is it like heaven you can't sin anymore?
 
Upvote 0

W2L

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2016
20,085
10,988
USA
✟213,593.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You know, where the rubber meets the road on this one. How many people you know of died purified? What is it to be purified? All sins forgiven? All sins forgiven and no more inclination to sin? Does purified mean like Adam and Eve? Or is it like heaven you can't sin anymore?
No, we can sin but we can be purified again once we confess our sin.
 
Upvote 0

W2L

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2016
20,085
10,988
USA
✟213,593.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Chapters 9 and 10 of Hebrews show that the Lord Jesus accomplished a finished work. It makes for wonderfully reassuring reading.
How would you explain Matthew 18:21-22?

Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
 
Upvote 0

faroukfarouk

Fading curmudgeon
Apr 29, 2009
35,914
17,128
Canada
✟287,108.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
How would you explain Matthew 18:21-22?

Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
There the Lord Jesus is not talking about whether or not His Work at the Cross can really forgive permanently and deal once and for all with the sin question: which it indeed does.

In Matthew 18 He speaks about the continuing willingness to forgive one another.
 
Upvote 0

W2L

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2016
20,085
10,988
USA
✟213,593.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
There the Lord Jesus is not talking about whether or not His Work at the Cross can really forgive permanently and deal once and for all with the sin question: which it indeed does.

In Matthew 18 He speaks about the continuing willingness to forgive one another.
Why would we need to forgive each other, unless we can sin against each other? Maybe i misunderstand you? Thats quite possible.
 
Upvote 0

faroukfarouk

Fading curmudgeon
Apr 29, 2009
35,914
17,128
Canada
✟287,108.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Why would we need to forgive each other, unless we can sin against each other? Maybe i misunderstand you? Thats quite possible.
We have sinful hearts, but the work of Christ is clearly a finished work once for all, if you read Hebrews chapters 9 and 10.

Justification is a matter of being reckoned just, not becoming just: the difference between justification and sanctification.
 
Upvote 0

Eloy Craft

Myth only points, Truth happened!
Site Supporter
Jan 9, 2018
3,132
871
Chandler
✟431,808.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
For those who love and trust the Lord Jesus, Hebrews 1 says that 'He by Himself purged our sins'
Who do you know who has had their sins purged? Who will say I have no sin because the Lord has purged them? Sacred Scripture does not support the conclusion that sin is purged in this life.

You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Can you tell me the difference between being cleansed and being purged?
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,866
8,387
Dallas
✟1,095,431.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And so is "memorialism", the unscriptural idea that the Lord's Supper is merely a memorial ceremony and otherwise meaningless.

Jesus said do this in remembrance of Me.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Phil 1:21
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,866
8,387
Dallas
✟1,095,431.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You know, where the rubber meets the road on this one. How many people you know of died purified? What is it to be purified? All sins forgiven? All sins forgiven and no more inclination to sin? Does purified mean like Adam and Eve? Or is it like heaven you can't sin anymore?

“Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.”

Colossians 1:22


“Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

1 Corinthians 6:11


“And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God.”

Romans 8:10


“Then he says, “I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds.” And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices. And so, dear brothers and sisters, we can boldly enter heaven’s Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus. By his death, Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place.”

Hebrews 10:17-20

According to these scriptures we are purified already. Unless Paul was writing to people who had already gone thru purgatory.
 
Upvote 0

Ronald

Exhortations
Site Supporter
Jul 30, 2004
4,620
981
southern
✟111,578.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Are you thinking that the Son of God is a spiritual nature or has a spirit? Jesus does not have a spirit The Son is consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
They don't each have a spirit nor share a spirit. They are spirit.

The below passages are referring to the Holy Spirit. The author is using the term Spirit. 2 cor. 3 the author refers to the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of the Living God. We know that He means the Holy Spirit. Because God is spirit and the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit.
2 cor 6. We know that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to minister to His Church on earth. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of His Father. The holy Spirit is the giver of life. So we know in that passage the Holy Spirit is referred to as the Spirit.
2cor 14 In Christ is the veil set aside. When one turns to the Lord, referring to the veil that covered the glory that shone on Moses face. That was the Holy Spirit. To distinguish that, the author wrote, when one turns to the Lord, Which we know is accepting the Grace of the Holy Spirit that justifies us. He follows with NOW the Lord is the Spirit. Because it is through Baptism that we receive the Holy Spirit.

This whole chapter is referring to the Holy Spirit as the Spirit.



2 cor. 3

and you show that you are a letter of Christ, prepared by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

2 cor. 6
our competence is from God, 6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 cor. 14
that same veil is still there, since only in Christ is it set aside. 15 Indeed, to this very day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their minds; 16 but when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
The Trinity is mysterious in that we cannot fully grasp it. However, I was taught, God is ONE. God is Spirit, without a physical body. And God is three persons, co-eternal, consubstantial, of the same essence, ONE BEING. Three persons can be confusing because we think of a person with a body, soul and a spirit, separate from any other person. So the word person is not complex enough. But we do not exist in a higher dimension, we exist in four dimensions. God is infinite, outside of our physical dimensions, so it is difficult to grasp.
There is no doubt that Jesus is fully God. In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word is God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is the exact radiance of Glory of God. In John 5 He identifies Himself as God. He put Himself equal to His Father; He assumes all prerogatives of Diety; He has All control/authority over life, creation and death; He determines eternity destiny; He has power to answer prayer; He has authority to forgive sin; He has control over the angels; He has power to open the Kingdom; He has the right to receive praise and worship; He is to be obeyed as God; His accepted titles are King, Messiah, Savior of the World, Son of God, Son of Man; He is the I AM. He claimed 'the Father and I are one, I am in the Father and the Father is in Me, If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father; He claimed to be Lord of the Sabbath and could do any work He chose to do; He claimed to be the Light and the Life and the Way and the Truth; His Father does work and He does all the work the Father gives Him to do; He doesn't act independently of the Father so whatever the Father does, He does in the same manner; He cannot sin; the Father shows Him all things; In Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells; In Him all things were created and consist; He claimed to be the Resurrection and the Life. Anyone who gives life is God.
The Holy Spirit is God and contains all the attributes of God as well. He teaches, guides, counsels, leads, gives truth, hears, speaks, is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, bears witness to Christ and glorifies Him, is wise, gives gifts, baptizes us, makes promises, loves us, fellowships with us , sanctifies us, justifies us convicts us of sin and edifies us. This is not a complete list.
Three persons in ONE BEING.
One way to confirm this is in the fact that God is Love.
If God is Love, who did He love before creation? A relationship is required to love. Therefore the essence of God requires more than one person to love. Elohim is a plural form. "Let us make man in our image." When Jesus was baptized, the Father spoke and the Holy Spirit descended on Him, showing us the Triune God. God exists in a spiritual realm that is mysterious and so this is as much as I can understand.
When I asked when the bread came down from heaven, did He come with a Spirit? Yes, the Holy Spirit. God emptied Himself into a human, NOT absent a Spirit at any time.
It is clear that scripture teaches that we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit.
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." Romans 8;9
Here, Christ is equated with God. As the Father was in Christ and Christ in the Father, and the Spirit in Christ, God is in us.
My point of course is the "bread and blood" is spiritual, our belief is spiritual, much deeper and beyond anything physical. It is an eternal relationship.
 
Upvote 0

sparow

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2014
2,737
452
86
✟570,419.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Who do you know who has had their sins purged? Who will say I have no sin because the Lord has purged them? Sacred Scripture does not support the conclusion that sin is purged in this life.

You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Can you tell me the difference between being cleansed and being purged?

Hebrews 1 is about the essential dignity of Christ; one who says he loves and trust the lord and does not keep the commandments is a liar and if one keeps the commandments sin is not a problem.

The scripture you have quoted explains every but it is a long journey between not understanding and understanding. when abiding in Christ it is impossible to sin; when a person sins he is not abiding in Christ.

I believe purging is a more violent form of cleansing like when God bits the bullet.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ronald

Exhortations
Site Supporter
Jul 30, 2004
4,620
981
southern
✟111,578.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You know, where the rubber meets the road on this one. How many people you know of died purified? What is it to be purified? All sins forgiven? All sins forgiven and no more inclination to sin? Does purified mean like Adam and Eve? Or is it like heaven you can't sin anymore?
Paul said, to be absent the body is to be present with the Lord. We go directly to the Lord. Stephen was stoned to death and said, Jesus receive my spirit.
The Bible tells us, be perfect as your FATHER ...
How is that possible? Well we have a spiritual compartment which has been cleansed, likened to the Most Holy Place in the Old Temple. Our temple has a purified compartment where the Holy Spirit dwells. Think of it, God cannot dwell in a sin ridden body. Now, our soul is not the same as our spirit, otherwise the two could not be divided as scripture states in "The word of God is sharper than a two-edged sword ..." The soul is the mind, will, emotions, the basic personality which is still part of our flesh. Sin dwells in the members of our flesh. So, we still sin. Sin originates in our mind, then we act on it with our bodies and thus need to die to ourselves daily. However, your spirit part of you remains pure. It has to, otherwise, you would have to continuously ask for forgiven lest you died suddenly. That is not the case. Christ died for our sins past, present and future. We are saved and secure, otherwise how could one have hope and faith without security?
So, the moment we die, we are separated from our flesh and our spirits go to the LORD, pure as snow. You see, the Old Temple was like a template design of our new spiritual temple.
As you look at it, you see all the elements and structure as symbolic of our new temple:
Jesus, as our High Priest enters the Temple as the Sacrifice, the veil is lifted, time Holy place represents the soul, the courtyard represents our body, the Table of Showbread contained the bread and wine, the Lampstand was always lit represents righteousness and also the Church, the Bronze Laver was used for cleansing symbolic for water baptism.
But make no mistake, our spirits, where God dwells and the New Covenant promise is protected ( just as the former Ark of the Covenant was) are pure, safe and secure and spiritually eternal.
*Protestant theology with some depth added.
 
Upvote 0

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,424
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,261.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Paul said, to be absent the body is to be present with the Lord.
Is it your position then that the Lord isn't in Purgatory?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Eloy Craft
Upvote 0