Are Protestants dead?

[BNR32FAN]

Uuuuuuuh, no. Formalized, possibly, but not formulated.

Please, please look into Patristics, Catholic sources, and the Early and Medieval Church Fathers. Please.

No need I’ll just quote straight from the catechism.

1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

 

[ripple the car]

No need I’ll just quote straight from the catechism.

1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

Ah, I see what you mean. Defined, but not invented.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ah, I see what you mean. Defined, but not invented.

How can you invent purgatory without defining it?

Formulate create or devise methodically (a strategy or a proposal):

 

[Eloy Craft]

Jesus' spirit came down and emptied Himself into Mary's womb and became flesh.
To save yourself time, you may just reference the the first chapter of the book of John, I am familiar with that very significant chapter.

Are you thinking that the Son of God is a spiritual nature or has a spirit? Jesus does not have a spirit The Son is consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
They don't each have a spirit nor share a spirit. They are spirit.

The below passages are referring to the Holy Spirit. The author is using the term Spirit. 2 cor. 3 the author refers to the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of the Living God. We know that He means the Holy Spirit. Because God is spirit and the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit.
2 cor 6. We know that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to minister to His Church on earth. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of His Father. The holy Spirit is the giver of life. So we know in that passage the Holy Spirit is referred to as the Spirit.
2cor 14 In Christ is the veil set aside. When one turns to the Lord, referring to the veil that covered the glory that shone on Moses face. That was the Holy Spirit. To distinguish that, the author wrote, when one turns to the Lord, Which we know is accepting the Grace of the Holy Spirit that justifies us. He follows with NOW the Lord is the Spirit. Because it is through Baptism that we receive the Holy Spirit.

This whole chapter is referring to the Holy Spirit as the Spirit.



2 cor. 3
and you show that you are a letter of Christ, prepared by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

2 cor. 6
our competence is from God, 6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 cor. 14
that same veil is still there, since only in Christ is it set aside. 15 Indeed, to this very day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their minds; 16 but when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

 

[sparow]

The "Catholics crucify Our Lord in each Mass" misses the forest but hits the trees. It's inaccurate, poorly worded and yet not really a lie.

What Mass does is make Our Lord's sacrifice present, in the here and now. When Our Lord was on the cross, He said "It is complete" or "It is accomplished" or something similar depending on the translation. Obviously what He was referring to was His sacrifice.

As people, we live in a basically 4D world. Actually more dimensions than that but four seems to be the number that most people can wrap their heads around. It isn't controversial theology even to most Protestants to say that although Our Lord's sacrifice on the cross took place at a fixed moment in time, it nevertheless applies to the past as well as to the future. Our Lord paid the full price of sin, in the time before His ministry, during His human lifetime and for all the future.

However, the Church has an explicit recognition of that reality which some Protestants find troubling. They don't seem to realize that the one sacrifice Our Lord ever offered on the cross isn't being repeated in each Mass. Rather, the Mass recognizes that Our Lord's sacrifice has happened, it is happening and it will happen.

Our Lord made a 4D atonement on the cross which applies to the past, present and future. And I think Salvador Dali well understood this as exemplified by his wonderful Crucifixion (Corpus Hypercubus) work.

View attachment 225491

Here we see Our Lord being crucified on a tesseract rather than a traditional cross. Four spatial dimensions, illustrating the 4D nature of Our Lord's sacrifice. As I say, His sacrifice transcends the moment in history in which it happened, reaching all the way back to the beginning of time and stretching all the way ahead to the end of time.

It is Sacrifice to the fourth power.

The Mass, thus, does not "re-crucify" Our Lord; it merely recognizes the past, present and future of His sacrifice. The Catholic Church recognizes the applicability of His sacrifice to the always-present moment in the Mass.

Admittedly this is tricky subject matter but there's a world of difference between the understanding that His sacrifice happened once for all times (literally for ALL times) and repeating the event unnecessarily in each Mass.

You are the first on this forum that I have witnessed, that has not interpreted “it is finished” to the Law abrogated.

It would mostly be the Dispensationalists who do not recognise the past, future and present of Christ's blood; one king , one redeemed kingdom and one Law.

While the accusations may be fuzzy you have not convinced me the RCC is innocent; even though it may be the pot calling the kettle black; the RCC has tipped everything upside down, the Protestants have failed to to put things back the right way; hypothetically all are dead unless as individuals they/we overcome.

As I understand but don't really know, the sacraments performed by the Priests are the Priest performing an imaginary sacrifice.

If I were you I would not be concerned about Protestant opinion but is God uncomfortable with what the RCC does. At the very least the RCC does something God has not asked for; they glorify the despicable act, the despicable cross, rather than what was achieved.

I am not impressed by the 4D Atonement; at one with God or reconciled with God. I have seen that 4D cross before and even as an amateur mathematician I do not know what theses 4 dimensions are but they do not appear naturally in the real world. There is such a place as mathematical fairy land; for reality to work everything has to be rational and logical, even the supernatural.

 

[thecolorsblend]

It would mostly be the Dispensationalists who do not recognise the past, future and present of Christ's blood; one king , one redeemed kingdom and one Law.

Fair enough. This is a point I probably should have made clearer in my post. Even so, I do welcome your correction now.

As I understand but don't really know, the sacraments performed by the Priests are the Priest performing an imaginary sacrifice.

To be clear, the remarks I made extend to the Eucharist and should be understood only in reference to that sacrament rather than the others.

Further, and again, I'm not comfortable with the wording that the priests are performing a sacrifice. Rather, the sacrifice which has been made only once is brought to the present. It's an important distinction since Our Lord's sacrifice is so perfect as to be complete, and no addition is possible or necessary.

If I were you I would not be concerned about Protestant opinion

The issue is less about Protestant opinion and more about a clearer picture of Catholic understanding of this issue. As it happens, I believe Protestants are and should be free to make their own decisions and I am not bothered by whatever choices they make.

but is God uncomfortable with what the RCC does.

I see no evidence of that.

they glorify the despicable act, the despicable cross, rather than what was achieved.

The despicable act is what led to what was achieved.

I have seen that 4D cross before and even as an amateur mathematician I do not know what theses 4 dimensions are but they do not appear naturally in the real world. There is such a place as mathematical fairy land; for reality to work everything has to be rational and logical, even the supernatural.

That's fair. But understand that my purpose was not to persuade so much as to explain using a visual aid.

 

[Ronald]

There is exactly one God. He is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One God. Without parts, without passion. Eternal, immortal, unchanging. Jesus is God incarnate. Have you read the Athanasian Creed?

Since you say you know the things in my past two posts tell my why your posts misquoted and misuse what is in the scriptures? Misquoting what is in John chapter 6 and misusing what is in John chapter 1 and, by implication, what is in Paul's letters? 2Corinthians 3:12 Since we have such a great ambition, we are quite confident—13 unlike Moses, who covered his face with a veil. Otherwise, the Israelites would have seen his passing radiance fade. 14 They became blind, however; until this day, the same veil prevents them from understanding the Old Covenant, and they do not realise that, in Christ, it is nullified. 15 Up to this very day, whenever they read Moses, the veil remains over their understanding 16 but, for whoever turns to the Lord, the veil shall be removed. 17 The Lord is Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So, with unveiled faces, we all reflect the glory of the Lord, while we are transformed into his likeness, and experience his glory, more and more by the action of the Lord, who is Spirit.

Paraphrasing is not acceptable when one is on their phone away from their Bible? OK, Im done. You won, Jesus turns into bread and you eat it and drink His blood.

 

[BukiRob]

That is not right. The Holy Spirit did not become flash. It was the Word who became flesh, the Word is the Son of God. The Word is God the Son. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us; and we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father: fullness of truth and loving-kindness.
15 John bore witness to him openly, saying, “This is the one who comes after me, but he is already ahead of me, for he was before me.” 16 From his fullness we have all received, favour upon favour. 17 For God had given us the law through Moses, but Truth and Loving-kindness came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but God-the-only-Son made him known: the one, who is in and with the Father.

The Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary and Mary gave birth to the Son of God. Luke 1:26 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God, to a town of Galilee called Nazareth. He was sent 27 to a virgin, who was betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the family of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” 29 Mary was troubled at these words, wondering what this greeting could mean. 30 But the angel said, “Do not fear, Mary, for God has looked kindly on you. 31 You shall conceive and bear a son; and you shall call him Jesus. 32 He will be great, and shall rightly be called Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the kingdom of David, his ancestor; he will rule over the people of Jacob forever; 33 and his reign shall have no end.” 34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” 35 And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore, the holy child to be born of you shall be called Son of God. 36 Even your relative, Elizabeth, is expecting a son in her old age, although she was unable to have a child; and she is now in her sixth month. 37 With God nothing is impossible.” 38 Then Mary said, “I am the handmaid of the Lord, let it be done to me as you have said.” And the angel left her.

And by the way... What WORD is John speaking of?

 

[BukiRob]

No need I’ll just quote straight from the catechism.

1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

I think what you mean is the ERROR of the Church

 

[Ronald]

The question that you ask is more complex than it sounds, and in fact some of your wording suggests slightly unorthodox ideas.

Jesus was a normal human being, complete with a human spirit. He wasn't missing a human spirit, with the Holy Spirit taking its place. That was an ancient heresy.

I would say that the Trinity has one spirit, the Holy Spirit. Hence there are actually two spirits, Jesus' human spirit, which was part of his human nature, and the Holy Spirit with is one person of the Trinity.

Matthew says that Jesus was "from the Holy Spirit." The Spirit took the initiative in his birth. This does not, however, mean that Jesus was a demigod, the child of Mary and the Spirit. While some non-Christians seem to think that's what w believe, it would be a serious misunderstanding. That's not how the Incarnation worked. The eternal logos united himself to a complete human (though not an independent human being, which would be a different heresy).

Hedrick, you need to back up and read previous posts before jumping in. You are misunderstanding the premise. The argument is whether the Eucharist literally turns into Jesus flesh and blood or is receiving communion symbolic for his body and blood, to remember His sacrifice. I believe Jesus, when He said, I am the bread that comes down and that we are to eat the bread, is entirely spiritual. It is our believing in His sacrifice, consuming His word and receiving the New Covenent in His blood that transforms us, grows us. He said, He came down, So I asked did His spirit come down? This is where the Catholic offensive turned and misconstrued what I said. II have an more in depth explanation coming ...

 

[Ronald]

I am unfamiliar with that verse brother Ronald. Can you please share it?

When Christ returns and the gentiles have reached their fullness. Romans 11:25-27
Everyone's name in the Book of Life is being
accounted for. This is what is meant by the fullness of the gentiles or when they reach their fullness, Jesus returns at that time.
Currently, there are 2.42 billion Christians, about 1/3 of the planet. As far as I know, that is the figure that represents the elect. Also, a remnant of the Jews will be saved during this time.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think what you mean is the ERROR of the Church

Yes purgatory is definitely an error.

 

[Jipsah]

Oh, so now Protestants do take the real Lords supper?

Do they discern it as the Body and Blood of Christ, or is it just a sip and a nibble "in remembrance"?

 

[Jipsah]

So the Lord's supper is considered the gospel in Catholicism?

It's considered the Body and Blood of our Lord.

 

[BNR32FAN]

When Christ returns and the gentiles have reached their fullness. Romans 11:25-27
Everyone's name in the Book of Life is being
accounted for. This is what is meant by the fullness of the gentiles or when they reach their fullness, Jesus returns at that time.
Currently, there are 2.42 billion Christians, about 1/3 of the planet. As far as I know, that is the figure that represents the elect. Also, a remnant of the Jews will be saved during this time.

That is very interesting thanks for sharing that brother. I didn’t know that. I love learning something new. God bless you

 

[Jipsah]

If a friend asked you to remember him, would you frame a photograph of his bloody body at an accident scene, and stare at it? People (C or P) that are hooked up on that may just be missing everything Jesus lived for.

A shame so many have to studiously avoid what He said in order to protect their doctrine.

 

[Jipsah]

Yes purgatory is definitely an error.

And so is "memorialism", the unscriptural idea that the Lord's Supper is merely a memorial ceremony and otherwise meaningless.

 

[Jipsah]

Y
I am not impressed by the 4D Atonement; at one with God or reconciled with God. I have seen that 4D cross before and even as an amateur mathematician I do not know what theses 4 dimensions are but they do not appear naturally in the real world. There is such a place as mathematical fairy land; for reality to work everything has to be rational and logical, even the supernatural.

I think you may due for an award for the most impenetrable reply posted this week.

 

[Eloy Craft]

When Christ returns and the gentiles have reached their fullness. Romans 11:25-27
Everyone's name in the Book of Life is being
accounted for. This is what is meant by the fullness of the gentiles or when they reach their fullness, Jesus returns at that time.
Currently, there are 2.42 billion Christians, about 1/3 of the planet. As far as I know, that is the figure that represents the elect. Also, a remnant of the Jews will be saved during this time.

I like you're thinking here. Imagine if all the gentiles that are going to be saved are saved. Then the only people left in the world would be the damned and the Jews. Then the Jews would be the only thing holding up the resurrection of the dead. Just thinking

 

[mama2one]

I read through many of these pages and felt compelled to write

"those who love God must also love their Christian brothers and sisters"
1John4:21