If evolution is not true, what was the process of creation?

[dreadnought]

The discussion is going way off topic.

I think we looking at it with a microscope.

 

[dms1972]

Anyone else thoughts on this? I agree that one cannot believe in both chance/undirected evolution and divinely directed evolution, so materialist neo-darwinism taken as a whole doesn't seem compatible with theism, because its a theory that is worked out in order that God is not needed (i am told). I know Darwin for the the sake of keeping the peace with his wedgewood relatives gave a nod to the Creator a couple of times, but he privately doesn't seem to believe. And certainly the neo-darwinism of Dawkins doesn't give any nod to the Creator.

But could some of the theistic-evolutionists here say how they look at it?

 

[Marvin Knox]

If you believe evolution is false, what then do you think or believe was the process of creation? ............. but if you don't agree with any kind of evolutionary theory how then did birds, animals, fish, humans, come into existence. I am asking about how God created these?

"Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.” God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so. God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.......................the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

Can that be found out by science?

No - only by faith.

 

[dms1972]

So origins (for creationists) cannot be studied scientifically? Maybe I am too influencd by the evolution theory, and therefore want another material process. But should there not be a material process that is the effect of the divine word (cause) Is there not in the natural a corrolary / effect of the divine word that can be studied? Is it kept hidden from science? Anyone understand what I am struggling with?

 

[dougangel]

I agree that one cannot believe in both chance/undirected evolution and divinely directed evolution,

Why ? It's obvious that the whole Universe is working on scientific principles at the moment.Stars form and die out. If the earth doesn't go at a certain speed round the sun we would be dragged into the sun by gravity. Every thing is running in scientific and mathematical order at the moment. That nature on earth is running random but in a specific order of things. All seed bearing plants have enough seed to ensure more than enough crops and they keep spreading out randomly.

When God put the unverse into action he designed it and created with science knowing how it was going to develop.

 

[dms1972]

Ok, 'seeds spreading out randomly' thats one aspect of evolution theory.


Are you saying that to us they seem random, but not to God?

I can't quite remember what evolution says about mutations, but to some it seems like God would not use a process involving mutations and discarding many organisms - He would make each thing right just as he wanted it.

 

[gideon123]

I am a scientist, I am perfectly OK with the theory of Evolution, and I have faith in God. In other words, I see no obstacles.

Just putting that out there.

I assume that if folks take a Creationist viewpoint, then they believe that God created life by a miraculous act (that we do not understand).

I avoid these types of arguments, because I see no point in arguments that divide the body of Christ. My point of view is that God is the Creator of life, and evolution is part of the process for how He did this. But every time I look up at the stars, or I open a textbook of Biology, I see the majestedy of God in plain sight.

Blessings and Peace!!

 

[miamited]

Hi dms,

Sure, I can give you my understanding of the how and when all things were created.

There was a point in time that God commanded the earth to exist. All by itself. Spinning. Covered with water is how God describes it to us. It just popped, if you will, into existence when God commanded that the earth exist. There were no stars to be seen in the heavens. There were no people or animals. It was just a planetary ball covered in water. It had a solid form beneath the water and that same solid form exists today.

Upon that singular planet of water and dirt, God then began to build an ecosystem. He commanded that some of the water rise up into the immediate area surrounding the earth and created the atmosphere. God then commanded the waters to part and the dry ground appeared. Whether the dry ground came up from the water or the water receded to reveal the dry ground, I can't say. God says that He 'gathered' the waters together to let the dry ground appear. How one wants to understand that 'gathering' can be whatever way they might consider it to have happened.

Then God covered the dry ground area of the earth with all different kinds of vegetation. All by His command and wisdom as to what kinds of plants were going to be needed to sustain the ultimate purpose of the earth -- a place for mankind to live. Then God created all of the other heavenly bodies of the universe. These were created that we might tell seasons and times when we got here and also the vastness of all that He created in the outlying heavens would be of such magnitude that just our consideration of it would declare the glory of God. Part of these heavenly bodies of the universe also included our sun and moon and all the other planets in our solar system and beyond.

Then God created all the living creatures of the earth. He filled the oceans and all other waterways with fish and crabs and lobsters and the myriad of other various water living creatures. He also created all of the land animals and bugs and reptiles, etc. The earth at this time would have been teeming with living creatures of all and various kinds.

Finally, when all of this 'home' for mankind was completed, God created man and woman to inhabit the earth. This all happened within the span of six rotations of the earth about 6,000 years ago.

That's it!

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[The Times]

Yes, the Lord will physically move a mountain, if need be. That was his point. He can also move figurative mountains.

Moving mountains is within the challenges that life throws at you. I am pretty sure Jesus was alluding to those mountainess challenges or obstacles in life.

 

[Danielwright2311]

Read my blog, little by little im teaching with scientific understanding life. Im not yet to Creation but I will cover it soon. Before then look into vibrations and how all vibrations are saved information. We all are nothing more then a vibration.

 

[The Times]

If you believe evolution is false, what then do you think or believe was the process of creation? Fair enough if you disagree with darwinian evolution, but think some other sort of theistic evolution process was involved, but if you don't agree with any kind of evolutionary theory how then did birds, animals, fish, humans, come into existence. I am asking about how God created these? Can that be found out by science?

God uses the LOGOS to speak things into being. That is the how.

It would be like asking how a miracle works, that is......

How the blind can see,
How the paralysed can walk,
How the 20,000 can be feed with 2 fish.
How the dead can rise,
How something can appear from nothing.
How did Yahweh (LOGOS) rain down fire from Yahweh.

Science is a tool to model naturally occurring and repeatable phenomena. It cannot model miracles.

 

[Norbert L]

If you believe evolution is false, what then do you think or believe was the process of creation? Fair enough if you disagree with darwinian evolution, but think some other sort of theistic evolution process was involved, but if you don't agree with any kind of evolutionary theory how then did birds, animals, fish, humans, come into existence. I am asking about how God created these? Can that be found out by science?

Look at the science fiction behind Jurassic Park, there's enough general information about it. We know that genetic sequences are involved with producing specific creatures, we just don't know how to do it. There's no living T Rex in a zoo today. Basically we know a lot about the what, we don't know much and very little about the how.

This is why we get competing claims about the reason for life as we know it. It's all about the how.

Look at it from another angle. If scientists knew how to create a dinosaur, it is not a far flung conclusion to reach that they would have already done it. People would be lining up at the doors to see this. Compare this to the theistic equivalent. If we knew how God created these life forms, you'd be seeing a bunch of theists using a super form of telepathy to create these things with our own amusement parks.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I believe in creationism because as the creator of the world and all we see around us the Lord believed in creationism. Let me explain. Some 6,000 years ago God spoke the universe and all we see around us into existence. Except when God created Eve he used Adams rib. I don't believe this to be a blind faith for Gods word the bible tells me so. There are many other things in the bible that have been proven correct by science. So why should I doubt the part where God created the universe? Also because the creator of the world believes in creationism I believe that every single person who believes in God should also believe that God created the world. Not just because the bible and many other religious books say so, not just because the evidence is all around us, but because God himself believed it and if you're a follower of God that should be that. The universe didn't just come out of nothing. God created it and one day all of creation will believe in creationism and call Jesus their Lord but by then it'll be too late.

 

[dreadnought]

Moving mountains is within the challenges that life throws at you. I am pretty sure Jesus was alluding to those mountainess challenges or obstacles in life.

I doubt if you and I will ever see him physically move a mountain, but I think his point was that he would if we needed him to. I think his statements are true literally, as well as figuratively.

 

[JacksBratt]

If you believe evolution is false, what then do you think or believe was the process of creation? Fair enough if you disagree with darwinian evolution, but think some other sort of theistic evolution process was involved, but if you don't agree with any kind of evolutionary theory how then did birds, animals, fish, humans, come into existence. I am asking about how God created these? Can that be found out by science?

You will never prove that God created everything by speaking.... with science.
God's act of creating, is recorded in Genesis and is supernatural...
This means that it is outside of the confines of science, which needs to be observable, testable and repeatable.

Having said that... Evolution is also outside the confines of science due to the fact that it, too, is not observable, testable or repeatable.

On top of that, there is one very important thing that evolution will not touch... where did life come from... Without that little ameba having a spark of "life" to get it up and running... it just decays anyway.

Not to mention that in order to have this one solitary living cell.. you need proteins.. which are super complex and having even just one form by accident is beyond comprehension...

Then, these proteins would have to form in super complex orders and codes. This is necessary to form DNA which is just like a computer program but much much more complex..

Then, these proteins and DNA would have to be inside the cell. The cell would have to have a cell wall, mitochondria, vacuoles, centrosomes, ribosomes, lysosomes, endoplasmic reticulome and all the other parts of a simple cell that would have ALL had to somehow miraculously form at the same time and come together, and get this elusive life force.. before oxidation and decay....

Now, tell me that that doesn't take some faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you believe evolution is false, what then do you think or believe was the process of creation? Fair enough if you disagree with darwinian evolution, but think some other sort of theistic evolution process was involved, but if you don't agree with any kind of evolutionary theory how then did birds, animals, fish, humans, come into existence. I am asking about how God created these? Can that be found out by science?

The process of creation was by the power of God. He is the cause of creation. He created everything you see in six literal 24 hours days by His miraculous power. Observable Science points to a Creator God. It is why everyone is without excuse that God exists. For even nature shows that truth to them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you believe evolution is false, what then do you think or believe was the process of creation? Fair enough if you disagree with darwinian evolution, but think some other sort of theistic evolution process was involved, but if you don't agree with any kind of evolutionary theory how then did birds, animals, fish, humans, come into existence. I am asking about how God created these? Can that be found out by science?

Here are some evidences that back up God and His Word:

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

 

[CosmicOsmo]

First off, I think its artificial to label people scientist or non-scientist. I've been in peer-reviewed science and can tell you its normal humans there too, and much of the thinking is irrational. This artificial divide between science and faith is just another way the devil gets people to fight. Also, it has created a "priesthood" of "scientists" who will be taken seriously even if they are wrong, just because of their title. This is wrong.

Another artificial divide is evolution vs. creation. Neither exist as a well-defined narrative of how it all happened. I remember in school when evolution was discussed, I waited eagerly for the exhaustive taxonomy of all the creatures and what they evolved from. As it turns out, we don't have even 1% of such a list. Instead, we have a bunch of vague ideas like "all species are related", "birds might have evolved from lizards" etc. but no complete theory. Whenever you ask a concrete question, the answers start having lots of "ifs", "buts" and "maybes".

Sometimes "scientists" claim they have vast understanding of the inner workings of the universe, but in reality they don't even know (scientifically) how our own solar system has "evolved"... all the planets are too different to have formed from a single spinning disk of matter. One theory why the planets are so different comes from Kent Hovind: God made them different to make evolution look stupid :-D

I appreciate the knowledge generated by scientists, but I don't put my trust in them (Jeremiah 17:5).

Instead, I think we're all scientists, able to discern that the world is created by our loving father.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:19)

I believe we that are saved by Jesus should use our revived spirit to inquire into these questions in a holistic way: using our brains as our spirit directs us. Our brain has the ability to store and process information, but our spirit has the ability to judge between truth and error.

Having said this, I don't know how creation happened exactly. Is the genetic similarity between pig and man because God took the rib of a pig when creating man or is it simply because the designs of a pig were fresh on His mind when creating man. I don't know and obviously this is not a very important question either.

My occupation is computer science. I build neural networks for automatic information processing. A colleague once asked me how I would explain similarity between animal species. I told him all my software code has great similarity, because I try to reuse code whenever possible and because many parts of different software applications are the same (reading files from a disk for example looks very similar in all the apps I've written over the years). This does not mean my software evolved on its own from "Hello World"

There are many questions we don't know and perhaps you should ask God to reveal it to you (he might). One thing we do know: Jesus rose from the dead and we too can live eternal life together with him! We have all eternity to ask him these questions if they happen to still interest us once we get to heaven.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

If you believe evolution is false, what then do you think or believe was the process of creation? Fair enough if you disagree with darwinian evolution, but think some other sort of theistic evolution process was involved, but if you don't agree with any kind of evolutionary theory how then did birds, animals, fish, humans, come into existence. I am asking about how God created these? Can that be found out by science?

If evolution is true why do we not have the missing link? Where in the fossil record does it show us an example of one species completely turning into another? There is no evidence of this.

For clarification, Darwin's finch is not an example of this. The adaptation of the finch beak is not new dna just showing up it is adaptation of existing dna. I am talking where do we see actual new dna being added.

 

[dqhall]

If you believe evolution is false, what then do you think or believe was the process of creation? Fair enough if you disagree with darwinian evolution, but think some other sort of theistic evolution process was involved, but if you don't agree with any kind of evolutionary theory how then did birds, animals, fish, humans, come into existence. I am asking about how God created these? Can that be found out by science?

The fossil record indicates God learned how to create simple life forms such as algae or sponges long before learning to create invertebrates. Mammals were created more recently. Man does not know how to create such things, but has been learning to edit genes to produce specific traits or abilities within cells.