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How to choose between creation and evolution.

DogmaHunter

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Nah, sorry not buying it.

It is your right to ignore facts, off course. You can believe what you want.

Nested heirarchies are the height of assumptions when you trace them backwards.

No, they are the output of a process of mapping matches between genomes.
They can also be obtained through comparative anatomy.

I don't know what else to tell you...
These days, it's not even humans who draw these trees. It's software.
You just feed sequenced DNA into it and the algorithm blindly compares, counts, maps and then spits out a graph visualising those datapoints. If nested hierarchies are the output, then that means that nested hierarchies are factually present in the input.

It's just what it is.
I'm sorry that you are so far gone in your fundamentalism that you simply refuse to face this fact.
 
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DogmaHunter

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And observable evidence shows that what God says happened really did. All observation proves the Bible is true. DNA proves the bible true. Evolution looks at the evidence and based on an unobservable assumption that all things evolved from a common ancestor.

So far gone.... so far gone...

What a waste.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Your funny! Anti-science! I love how if one doesn't believe in evolution from a common ancestor somehow we are balnketed with Anti-science. I don't believe in the Quran, does that make me anti-religion?

No. You are anti-science, because you start from the dishonest position that whatever science comes up with, it HAS to play nice with your faith based religion.

Whenever science disagrees with your religion, you consider science to be false by default.
You put yourself in a position where you already determined the answers before asking the questions. You start from your bible and any and every theory science comes up with that doesn't agree with your understanding of the bible, you will reject at face value. For the sole reason that it doesn't agree with your a prior faith based beliefs.


That's about as anti-science as it gets.
 
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omega2xx

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If you study evolution, with an open mind, you will likely believe in evolution.

If you study human, animal, and plant anatomy, with an open mind, you will likely believe in creation.

If you understand genetics you will never believe in evolution.
 
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omega2xx

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So far gone.... so far gone...

What a waste.

The real waste is making claims that you can't prove.


"No one has ever produced a species b y mechanisms o natural selection, No one has ever gotten near it..." Colin Patterson.
 
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DogmaHunter

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If you understand genetics you will never believe in evolution.

So.... the 99.99% of geneticists who consider evolution to be the backbone theory of the biological sciences.... don't understand genetics?

:D


you people crack me up
 
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tas8831

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Your funny! Anti-science! I love how if one doesn't believe in evolution from a common ancestor somehow we are balnketed with Anti-science. I don't believe in the Quran, does that make me anti-religion?

Apples and oranges.
 
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tas8831

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If you understand genetics you will never believe in evolution.

Tell me about your genetics background.

Better yet - DEMONSTRATE it.



I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it:

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:

Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "



Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade.

"The Superfamily Hominoidea for apes and humans is reduced to family Hominidae within Superfamily Cercopithecoidea, with all living hominids placed in subfamily Homininae; and (4) chimpanzees and humans are members of a single genus, Homo, with common and bonobo chimpanzees placed in subgenus H. (Pan) and humans placed in subgenus H. (Homo). It may be noted that humans and chimpanzees are more than 98.3% identical in their typical nuclear noncoding DNA and probably more than 99.5% identical in the active coding nucleotide sequences of their functional nuclear genes (Goodman et al., 1989, 1990). In mammals such high genetic correspondence is commonly found between sibling species below the generic level but not between species in different genera."
 
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tas8831

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If you study evolution, with an open mind, you will likely believe in evolution.

If you study human, animal, and plant anatomy, with an open mind, you will likely believe in creation.


I suspect that your knowledge of human, animal, and plant anatomy rivals that of your knowledge of the difference between cells and extracellular matrix.

I asked you in another thread to provide examples of anatomy that implied creation and your response was some condescending dodge.

We all know why you were not able to provide a demonstration of your claim. You seem almost proud of it.
 
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tas8831

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Which is why many courses club genetics and evolution together.
In my current evolution class, in addition to 2 chapters devoted specifically to genetics/genetics-related issues, I have discussed genetics-related issues more than a dozen times.

Isn't it so precious to see creationists pretend to possess knowledge that they demonstrably do not have?

I wonder if they really believe their own assertions?

Or maybe to them, their "wisdom" and "common sense" trumps actually understanding things....
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I suspect that your knowledge of human, animal, and plant anatomy rivals that of your knowledge of the difference between cells and extracellular matrix.

I asked you in another thread to provide examples of anatomy that implied creation and your response was some condescending dodge.

We all know why you were not able to provide a demonstration of your claim. You seem almost proud of it.

I can google the answers to any question put to me, and I'll sound like an expert (and I will probably understand it as well).

I was sent to an "infectious disease specialist" (a phony title) by my doctor because I complained of ongoing symptoms of Lyme disease long after I had been 'successfully' treated. He attempted to tell me my post-infection symptoms were all in my head. He also made a gratuitous statement that "an IQ of 120 was all that was required to become doctor". I have no idea why he offered that. Anyway both he and my doctor were full of it. Lesson learned.

What neither understood was that while a live horse can pollute a stream, a dead one can be just as bad.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I was sent to an "infectious disease specialist" (a phony title) by my doctor because I complained of ongoing symptoms of Lyme disease long after I had been 'successfully' treated. He attempted to tell me my post-infection symptoms were all in my head. He also made a gratuitous statement that "an IQ of 120 was all that was required to become doctor". I have no idea why he offered that. Anyway both he and my doctor were full of it. Lesson learned.

I have a distinct feeling that you're talking out of your rear-end with this story.
 
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Jjmcubbin

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In my current evolution class, in addition to 2 chapters devoted specifically to genetics/genetics-related issues, I have discussed genetics-related issues more than a dozen times.

Isn't it so precious to see creationists pretend to possess knowledge that they demonstrably do not have?

I wonder if they really believe their own assertions?

Or maybe to them, their "wisdom" and "common sense" trumps actually understanding things....
Everytime I visit this forum, I meet a new person with new stupid arguments. I like it though. Once, I met someone who believed that science didn't work the same in the past. Like momentum wasn't conserved and half life of tritium was different.
 
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bhsmte

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Everytime I visit this forum, I meet a new person with new stupid arguments. I like it though. Once, I met someone who believed that science didn't work the same in the past. Like momentum wasn't conserved and half life of tritium was different.

Yea, we all know who that is. Have had them on ignore since, forever.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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