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Butch5

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Wrong again. I wasn't addressing the OP was I? Why not go back to my post and read what I was responding to.


You know, one thing I've found in life is that when people go, "wrong!" they usually are. Yet again you didn't answer the question. How does what you posted address the op?

'
You are correct Jesus criticized the Jewish leadership for not understanding the scriptures. So why would He permit the Jews to teach about hell when according to you it is unscriptural, it does not exist? I did not say "because the Jews believed in ETC that proves that the Bible teaches it" It really does help to actually read a post before trying to respond to it.

You're conflating hell with the concept of ECT. I didn't say hell doesn't exist. I said ETC is not what the Scriptures teach.

Claiming that people haven't read your post isn't a legitimate response when you don't have an answer to the question. I actually did read your post. Since you accept the Jewish Encyclopedia as a valid source I thought I'd post these quotes from it.

Immortality of the Soul:
IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL - JewishEncyclopedia.com
“The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath,1 and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood,2 no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God3 which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast,4 is taken away5 or returns to God,6 the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness.7 The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practiced also in ancient Israel,8 was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in YHWH, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times.”9
“As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God, and to celestial beings who “eat of the tree of life and live forever,”10 whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality.”11
“The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended.”
“Certain it is that the Pharisaic belief in resurrection had not even a name for the immortality of the soul. For them, man was made for two worlds, the world that now is, and the world to come, where life does not end in death.”

Pharisees:
PHARISEES - JewishEncyclopedia.com
“The Pharisees, who yielded to the temporary powers and enjoined the people to pray for the government,12 waited nevertheless for the Kingdom of God, consoling themselves in the meantime with the spiritual freedom granted by the study of the Law.13 … Josephus14 carefully avoids mentioning the most essential doctrine of the Pharisees, the Messianic hope, which the Sadducees did not share with them. … But it was not the immortality of the soul which the Pharisees believed in, as Josephus puts it, but the resurrection of the body as expressed in the liturgy,15 and this formed part of their Messianic hope.16 In contradistinction to the Sadducees, who were satisfied with the political life committed to their own power as the ruling dynasty, the Pharisees represented the views and hopes of the people. The same was the case with regard to the belief in angels and demons.”
1 “nefesh”; “neshamah”; compare “anima”
2 Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see “Soul”
3 “nishmat” or “ruaḥ ḥayyim”
4 Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3
5 Ps. cxlvi. 4
6 Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14
7 Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10
8 I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy
9 Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8.
10 Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.
11 See Roscher, “Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie,” s.v. “Ambrosia”
12 Abot iii. 2
13 Abot vi. 2
14 "B. J." ii. 8, § 14; "Ant." xiii. 5, § 9; xviii. 1, § 3
15 See Resurrection
16 See Eschatology
 
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Der Alte

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You know, one thing I've found in life is that when people go, "wrong!" they usually are. Yet again you didn't answer the question. How does what you posted address the op?
I have already addressed the OP several times in this thread. Since this seems to be a great concern of yours please read my posts. I repeat in the post which you responded to I was not addressing the OP.
You're conflating hell with the concept of ECT. I didn't say hell doesn't exist. I said ETC is not what the Scriptures teach.
No I am not conflating anything. The historical Jewish concept of "hell," in the sources I quoted, includes ECT.
Claiming that people haven't read your post isn't a legitimate response when you don't have an answer to the question. I actually did read your post. Since you accept the Jewish Encyclopedia as a valid source I thought I'd post these quotes from it.
Since you have once again misrepresented what I said if you did read my post then you did not understand it or you are deliberately misrepresenting what I said.
Immortality of the Soul:
IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL - JewishEncyclopedia.com
“The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath,1 and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood,2 no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God3 which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast,4 is taken away5 or returns to God,6 the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness.7 The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practiced also in ancient Israel,8 was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in YHWH, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times.”9
“As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God, and to celestial beings who “eat of the tree of life and live forever,”10 whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality.”11
“The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended.”
“Certain it is that the Pharisaic belief in resurrection had not even a name for the immortality of the soul. For them, man was made for two worlds, the world that now is, and the world to come, where life does not end in death.”
Pharisees:

PHARISEES - JewishEncyclopedia.com
“The Pharisees, who yielded to the temporary powers and enjoined the people to pray for the government,12 waited nevertheless for the Kingdom of God, consoling themselves in the meantime with the spiritual freedom granted by the study of the Law.13 … Josephus14 carefully avoids mentioning the most essential doctrine of the Pharisees, the Messianic hope, which the Sadducees did not share with them. … But it was not the immortality of the soul which the Pharisees believed in, as Josephus puts it, but the resurrection of the body as expressed in the liturgy,15 and this formed part of their Messianic hope.16 In contradistinction to the Sadducees, who were satisfied with the political life committed to their own power as the ruling dynasty, the Pharisees represented the views and hopes of the people. The same was the case with regard to the belief in angels and demons.”
1 “nefesh”; “neshamah”; compare “anima”
2 Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see “Soul”
3 “nishmat” or “ruaḥ ḥayyim”
4 Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3
5 Ps. cxlvi. 4
6 Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14
7 Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10
8 I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy
9 Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8.
10 Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.
11 See Roscher, “Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie,” s.v. “Ambrosia”
12 Abot iii. 2
13 Abot vi. 2
14 "B. J." ii. 8, § 14; "Ant." xiii. 5, § 9; xviii. 1, § 3
15 See Resurrection
16 See Eschatology
What is your point? Do you have an opinion this is supposed to support? None of this disproves anything in my post. Note, In addition to the Jewish Encyclopedia I also quoted the Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.
 
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Oseas

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. . . similar verses in other writings of Paul, none of which refute universalism either.
As i said:
So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

The religious power that will establish a supposed "universal salvation" (as you said), this will happen through a powerful leader, who by figure or allegory is identified having 7 heads (seven heads are 7 mounts and 7 kings-Rev.17:v.9-10)and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

One of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the Beast. (The earth is divided in 7 regions, Europe, Asia, Africa, Oceania, North America, Central America and South America. The head that will be wounded is South America)

4 And they (the folowers of the satanic universalism) worshipped the Dragon (the Dragon is the false messiah of the Jews-Rev.13:11-18) which gave power unto the (first)Beast: and they (the folowers of the satanic universalism)worshipped the Beast, saying, Who is like unto the Beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name (who knows the name of God? John 17:v.6), and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven (region celestial/heavenly places in Christ: Eph.1:v.3).

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints (with the true believers), and to overcome them: and power was given (unto the Beast) him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (7 regions of the Earth)

8 And ALL that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the Beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


Rev.22:11-13
11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and
my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

The theory of this peculiar UNIVERSALISM in discussing IS AN INVENTION OF THE DEVIL, IT IS A DOCTRINE OF DEMONS. This universalism is linked with the Red Dragon, the own Satan incarnated, the son of perdition, more precisely the false messiah of the Jews. The Jews are waiting the manifestation of their peculiar messiah, not JESUS.
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved, And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness
.
 
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Butch5

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I have already addressed the OP several times in this thread. Since this seems to be a great concern of yours please read my posts. I repeat in the post which you responded to I was not addressing the OP.

No I am not conflating anything. The historical Jewish concept of "hell," in the sources I quoted, includes ECT.

Since you have once again misrepresented what I said if you did read my post then you did not understand it or you are deliberately misrepresenting what I said.

What is your point? Do you have an opinion this is supposed to support? None of this disproves anything in my post. Note, In addition to the Jewish Encyclopedia I also quoted the Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.

When you addressed my post initially you said what a I posted was the typical internet screed. What I said was that the idea of ETC came into the faith from Greek Philosophy. One of the sources you cite as authoritative states the very same thing in quoting Immanuel ben Solomon.

Page from the First Edition of Immanuel ben Solomon's "Meḥabberot," Brescia, 1491.(In the Columbia University Library, New York.)

The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended, as the Semitic name "Minos" (comp. "Minotaurus"), and the Egyptian "Rhadamanthys" ("Ra of Ament," "Ruler of Hades"; Naville, "La Litanie du Soleil," 1875, p. 13) with others, sufficiently prove.
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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The religious power that will establish a supposed "universal salvation" (as you said), this will happen through a powerful leader, who by figure or allegory is identified having 7 heads (seven heads are 7 mounts and 7 kings-Rev.17:v.9-10)and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

One of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the Beast. (The earth is divided in 7 regions, Europe, Asia, Africa, Oceania, North America, Central America and South America. The head that will be wounded is South America)

4 And they (the folowers of the satanic universalism) worshipped the Dragon (the Dragon is the false messiah of the Jews-Rev.13:11-18) which gave power unto the (first)Beast: and they (the folowers of the satanic universalism)worshipped the Beast, saying, Who is like unto the Beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name (who knows the name of God? John 17:v.6), and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven (region celestial/heavenly places in Christ: Eph.1:v.3).

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints (with the true believers), and to overcome them: and power was given (unto the Beast) him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (7 regions of the Earth)

8 And ALL that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the Beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


Rev.22:11-13
11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and
my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

The theory of this peculiar UNIVERSALISM in discussing IS AN INVENTION OF THE DEVIL, IT IS A DOCTRINE OF DEMONS. This universalism is linked with the Red Dragon, the own Satan incarnated, the son of perdition, more precisely the false messiah of the Jews. The Jews are waiting the manifestation of their peculiar messiah, not JESUS.
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved, And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness
.
I've never heard of Oceania. I'm pretty sure you mean Australia. No one says Oceania. Oceania sounds fun though.
 
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Der Alte

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When you addressed my post initially you said what a I posted was the typical internet screed. What I said was that the idea of ETC came into the faith from Greek Philosophy. One of the sources you cite as authoritative states the very same thing in quoting Immanuel ben Solomon.
Page from the First Edition of Immanuel ben Solomon's "Meḥabberot," Brescia, 1491.(In the Columbia University Library, New York.)
The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended, as the Semitic name "Minos" (comp. "Minotaurus"), and the Egyptian "Rhadamanthys" ("Ra of Ament," "Ruler of Hades"; Naville, "La Litanie du Soleil," 1875, p. 13) with others, sufficiently prove.
So you have provided one source which seems to support your argument. Does any of this refute what I posted from the three Jewish sources? If this is true why would Jesus teach things which supported or seemed to support, the then Jewish view of hell? Why would Jesus not clearly teach universalism or annihilationism, whichever view you hold?
 
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Butch5

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So you have provided one source which seems to support your argument. Does any of this refute what I posted from the three Jewish sources? If this is true why would Jesus teach things which supported or seemed to support, the then Jewish view of hell? Why would Jesus not clearly teach universalism or annihilationism, whichever view you hold?

I posted one source which you claim is authoritative. So, your source also acknowledges what I said.

Jesus did clearly teach annihilationism.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Jn. 3:16 KJV)

That's pretty clear.
 
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Der Alte

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I posted one source which you claim is authoritative. So, your source also acknowledges what I said.
Does anything you quoted refute what I posted?
Jesus did clearly teach annihilationism.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Jn. 3:16 KJV)
That's pretty clear.
The Greek word translated "perish" in this verse is ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi. It occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
.....(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26,3 (cf.Sir 20:22).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12
Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.
BAG Greek Lexicon online
I repeat my question why would Jesus not clearly teach annihilationism?
 
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ClementofA

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EXACTLY! It uses the word aidiois, which you claimed was the word that God should have used in verses like 2 Thessalonians 1:9 if he meant the true, unending, trillions of trillions of eons kind of eternity. So I showed you that your aidiois isn't any better than aiōnion. As seen in Jude 1:6, aidiois can refer to a finite period of time as well!

The point is that AIDIOS was a - better - word to describe endlessness ( and therefore endless punishment) IF that is what Scripture teaches. Since Scripture never uses that word (or "no end") of punishment, Scripture doesn't teach endless punishment. If AIDIOS appeared at Mt.25:46 instead of AIONION, we wouldn't be having this discussion. As for Jude 1:6, you miss the point that the word AIDIOS is limited there by its context. If it had been used by Jesus in Matthew 25:46, the limitation of Jude isn't there.

Men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)
 
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ClementofA

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Since I highly doubt he will ever stoop to the incredibly low level of answering a question about his beliefs, I will answer the question for you.

No. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 does NOT refute Universalism.

Thanks for your honesty.

I will not respond to posts which consist mostly of long irrelevant repetitious copy/paste responses.

Then maybe you can answer one simple question, yes or no:

Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism?

http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Hope Beyond Hell.pdf
 
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Der Alte

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The point is that AIDIOS was a - better - word to describe endlessness ( and therefore endless punishment) IF that is what Scripture teaches. Since Scripture never uses that word (or "no end") of punishment, Scripture doesn't teach endless punishment. If AIDIOS appeared at Mt.25:46 instead of AIONION, we wouldn't be having this discussion. As for Jude 1:6, you miss the point that the word AIDIOS is limited there by its context. If it had been used by Jesus in Matthew 25:46, the limitation of Jude isn't there.
Nonsense. In the following twenty two verses αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described by other words and phrases as eternal, everlasting etc.: 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Roman 16:26.

.....In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but are never defined/described as meaning a period of time less than eternal as in the following verses.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous

[1]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[2]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[3]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” If an “aionios” house is at some time destroyed then it is no different than the earthly house. The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.” If the tabernacle in heaven is destroyed, it is no different than the earthly tabernacle.
[4]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has a permanent [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.

In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[5]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God.
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “incorruptible.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” "incorrutible word of God"-"aion word of God". Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[6]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[7]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. not “corruption.” “Age(s) is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting.”
[8]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[9]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s)” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[10]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[11]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “little while.” Thus by definition “aionios” here means “eternal.”
[12]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternal.”
[13]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “without end.” “aionios” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionios” by definition here means eternal.

[14]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionas] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
[15]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand.” If “aionion” is only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” by definition here means eternal.
[16]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.
[17]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.
[18]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal.”
[19]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with death. “A finite period” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios” by definition here means ‘eternal.”
[20]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations."

.

 
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ClementofA

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Nonsense.
Here is a study I made.

That has been answered several times before:

Nineteen verses which define/describe αἰών and αἰώνιος: 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58,
John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24,

[1] 1 Timothy 1:17
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is in apposition, see def. below, with “immortal.” “aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” means “eternal.”

1 Timothy 1:17 Interlinear: and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

Young's Literal Translation
and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen. (1 Tim.1:17)

The information that God is "King of the ages" is different info (not redundant info) from God being "immortal" & "invisible" & the "only wise God".

Nothing in this verse says "the ages" referred to are endless. Nothing there says the phrase "to the ages of the ages" means endless. If you are doing something up "to" a certain time (e.g. ages of the ages"), that leaves it an open question whether or not you keep doing it afterwards.

Additionally, if the ages have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26), then "King of the ages" cannot mean King for endless time.

1."God exists today"
2. Today "is finite"
3. Therefore God exists during finite days [years, centuries, eras, epochs, milleniums, ancient times/olam, eons & ages]
4. God is also immortal.
5. Therefore God exists both during finite days & immortally.
6. Both are true at the same time.

Therefore when Scripture speaks of One Who is both immortal and King of the ages in the same sentence (1 Tim.1:17), ages can refer to finite periods of time. Whether of finite individual ages or finite corporate ages [of at least two ages].

Thus your argument is refuted.


[2]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not
seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aionios” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal
/temporary.” “Eternal” is. See Robertson below.


Actually the opposite of a "moment" can be an "age" of a "finite period":

Thesaurus results for MOMENT
Gegenteil-von.com
104 Moment Antonyms - Opposite of Moment - Page 3
Gegenteil-von.com

Also a "moment" is usually a 'short' period of time.
An "eon" or "age" can be a 'long' period of time.
And 'long' is the opposite of 'short':

http://www.myenglishpages.com/site_php_files/vocabulary-lesson-opposites2.php



[3]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” An “aionios” house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”


First, in this verse it says "aionios in the heavens". Scripture says the heavens which now are will pass away. So if these heavens are temporary, so also can aionios be temporary in 2 Cor.5:1.

Secondly, that the house is not dissolved for an aionion (eonian) period of time does not necessarily mean that eonian means eternal in this verse. For example if something is not dissolved for the eon of the millennial age eon, that doesn't mean the millennial eon is eternal.


[4]Hebrews 7:24
(24) But this man, because he continueth ever.[αἰών/aion] hath an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is in apposition with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time.
Thus “aion” means “eternal.”


Hebrews 7:24 Interlinear: and he, because of his remaining -- to the age, hath the priesthood not transient,

"hath an unchangeable priesthood] Rather, “hath his priesthood unchangeable” (sempiternum, Vulg.) or perhaps “untransmissible;” “a priesthood that doth not pass to another,” as it is rendered in the margin of our Revised Version." Hebrews 7:24 Commentaries: but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

"This may be explained either as inviolable, or which does not pass over to another. Comp. Exodus 32:8; Sir. 23:18. Usage is in favor of the former meaning, but the other falls in better with the course of thought." Vincent @ Hebrews 7:24 Commentaries: but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

Will the office of priesthood be even needed or last forever? If not, then it will cease & aion in this verse cannot refer to an endless duration.

After God becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) priesthood may no longer serve any purpose. Likewise with kings (cf. 1 Tim.1:17 above).



[5]1 Peter 1:23
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever, .[αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aion” is in apposition with “incorruptible.” The seed of God cannot be “incorruptible” and only for “a finite period” at the same time. Thus “aion” means “eternal.”


"The most ancient manuscripts omit the words, "for ever" ", i.e. they omit the Greek word aion:

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_peter/1-23.htm

As do the NASB, NIV, ESV, ASV, DBY, ERV, & most at:

http://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-23.htm

and also this:

Greek-English Interlinear:
Index of /interlinear/1_peter


[6]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.[aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is in apposition with “immortality”. If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios”
means “eternal.”


Actually God can be (and is) both immortal & existing "for a finite period at the same time". For God lives both "today" and is "immortal". Today is finite, so God will be for a finite period, namely "today". Additionally, God is "immortal". So when the finite time period "today" ends, He does not end, but lives on. That God will be living "today" and also at the same time be "immortal" are two distinct and different facts, not redundant facts telling us the same thing. Likewise the fact God is both aionian (eonian) & immortal in 1 Tim.6:16 do not require they be redundant or that eonian mean eternal or endless time.

Aionios is related to time in the Scriptures, not eternity:

in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian (Titus 1:2)
Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,(2 Tim.1:9)
Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, 26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience (Rom.16:25-26)
but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory (1 Cor.2:7)

If time ends, the "times eonian" (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25) end & eonian ends with the beginning of eternity, then in Scripture eonian can never mean endless or everlasting.

The eons had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7, etc) & may also have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26).

Young's Literal Translation (1 Tim.6:16)
who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age-during! Amen.
Concordant Literal Translation
Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!
Rotherham's Emphasized Version
Who alone hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable,—Whom no man hath seen—nor can see: unto whom, be honour and might age-abiding. Amen.
Emphatic Diaglott NT
the only one having deathlessness, light dwelling in inaccessible, whom saw no one of men, nor to see is able; to whom honor and might age-lasting; so be it.
Emphatic Diaglott (margin)
...to whom be Honor and Might aionian. Amen

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/moa/AKR1767.0001.001/686?rgn=main;view=image
http://studybible.info/CLV/1 Timothy 6
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1ti6.pdf

Re Greek scholar Deissman:

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter9.html

The Greek text is on p.275ff of the following url. The English translation follows.

"I adjure thee by the great God, the eternal and more than eternal and almighty, who is exalted above the exalted Gods." (p.277)

"The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D.; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century,1 that is— to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible — about the time of Origen." (p.279)

https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf



[7]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap life aionios, i.e. not “corruption.” Thus “aionios” means
“eternal/everlasting.”

The "corruption" is not stated to be endless, so it does not necessarily follow that the life or eonian or life eonian must be endless.

Be not decived, God is not to be sneered at, for whatsoever a man may be sowing, this shall he be reaping also, 8 for he who is sowing for his own flesh, from the flesh shall be reaping corruption, yet he who is sowing for the spirit, from the spirit shall be reaping life eonian. (Galatians 6:8; Concordant Literal Version).

Origen, the Early Church Father, speaks a number of times of after aionios (eternal) life, thereby making it finite in relation to a coming age or ages, such as, e.g.the millennial kingdom eon age. Christ also speaks of aionios life in the age to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30). And Daniel 12:2 refers to olam life followed in verse 3 by "olam and beyond", thereby making olam life in this context finite.



[8]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “death” If “aionios” is only a finite period, “A finite period” is not opposite of “death.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”
[9]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Here “aionios” and “aion” are contrasted with not “snatch them out of my hand” In a finite period they could be snatched out, “Aionios” means “eternal.”
[10]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, “A finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”

John 10:28 is a repeat of the same verse addressed below at verse #15 on your list of 19 verses (actually only 18, & just 17 that have aion/ios in them).

In John 6:58 death is not contrasted with aionios, but with live. Aionios is not the opposite of death.

And the world is passing by, and its desire, yet he who is doing the will of God is remaining for the eon. (1 Jn.2:17, CLV) and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age. (YLT)

For the eon or age here can certainly refer to a finite eon such as the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ, or also the eon of the second death (lake of fire) until death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes "all in all" (v.28), even all who were ever in Adam (v.22).


[11]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you
and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “little while.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”


Actually aion (and therefore aionios) can be the opposite of a "little while". See previous comments above re 2 Cor.4:17-18 & "moment".


[12]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aion” is in apposition with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can
seek for “eternity” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus “aion” means “eternal.”

Those who "in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality" will be given "aionios life". Aionios (eonian) life is the special reward for those who believe. They get life in the eonian period called the 1000 years in Revelation, i.e. the millennial age eon. Unbelievers will not get eonian life in the age to come. As we see in 1 Tim.4:9-11, God is the Saviour of all men, but specially of them that believe. For believers get the special gift of grace of eonian life. Others will lose out on that & be punished. But even they shall be eventually saved (Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13; 1 Cor.15:22-28; etc).


[13]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “without end.” “aionios” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionios” means eternal.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/1-33.htm
http://studybible.info/ACVI/Luke
http://studybible.info/IGNT/Luke

Darby Bible Translation
and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end.

This is what it actually literally says:

Luk 1:33 and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation. (CLV)

It is about reigning over the house of Jacob and the time limit is "for the eons."

Here is the full verse with context:

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and Son of the Most High shall He be called. And the Lord God shall be giving Him the throne of David,
Luk 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. (here is the second half of the verse you allude to And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."

Christ eventually hands over the kingdom to His God and Father (1 Cor.15:24-28) and quits reigning (1 Cor.15:25). So His reign "for the eons" over the house of Jacob (Lk.1:33) is not forever, but finite. Therefore the phrase "for the eons" in Lk.1:33 is of finite duration & the translation "forever" is wrong, misleading & deceptive.



[14]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionas] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” means
“forever and forever.”


If someone said to me "I have had no rest day or night", this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.

If someone said to me "I've had no rest day or night for ages", this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn't mean forever. BTW the phrase 'forever and ever' in Rev.14:11 literally translates as "to ages of ages". So having no rest day or night for "ages" can mean for a short or long time of finite duration, not forever.

Here is the literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-11.htm

Many other similar examples could be given with a literal translation.

Scripture also speaks of night being "no more". So can "day and night" be forever?

For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...hilationsim-vs-eternal-torment.8019864/page-7

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).


[15]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand.” If “aionion” is only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” means eternal.
[16]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” means eternal.
[17]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” means eternal.


And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand. (Jn.10:28, CLV)

Evidently this may refer to a future eon & not the disciples time in the first century A.D., since they did perish or die. The coming eon will include the millennium or 1000 years of Revelation 20. Even during that millennial age eon some will die (Isa.65:20), but Jesus says here in Jn.10:28 that believers will not perish "for the eon".

Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isa.65:20)

Unbelievers will not enter the millennial age kingdom of Christ, but perish, according to verses in John above. It is noteworthy that it doesn't say they perish "without end" or "endlessly". They are raised at the great White Throne judgement of Revelation 20 & ultimately saved. For Jesus is the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29) & their Saviour (Jn.4:42) Who will draw them to Himself (Jn.12:32).


[18]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death
unto life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period” it means “eternal.”

For neither is the Father judging anyone, but has given all judging to the Son, 23 that all may be honoring the Son, according as they are honoring the Father. He who is not honoring the Son is not honoring the Father Who sends Him." 24 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life. (Jn.5:22-25, CLV)

Here we see that all judging has been given to the Son for a positive end, that all may be honoring the Son.

Believers have life eonian, as long as they don't lose their salvation. Then they would lose this gift of grace of eonian life and come into condemnation again.


[19]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with death. “A finite period” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is.

Actually in that verse death is not contrasted with aionios. Death is contrasted with its opposite life. Aionios life is the gift of God (Rom.6:23) to those who believe. Eventually all
will recieve life (verses 18-19 of the same book of Romans & chapter 5).



= = = = =
The definition of “apposition” from a Greek grammar.
III. Nominative in Simple Apposition
The nominative case (as well as the other cases) can be an appositive to another substantive in the same case. The usage is quite common. There are four features of simple apposition to be noted (the first two are structural clues; the last two features are semantic): An appositional construction inz’olz’es (1) two adjacent substantives (2)in the same case (40) (3) which refer to the same person or thing, (4) and have the same syntactical relation to the rest of the clause.
The first substantive can belong to any category (e.g., subject, Predicate nom., etc.) and the second is merely a clarification, description, or identification of who or what is mentioned.(41) Thus, the appositive “piggy-backs” on the first nominative’s use, as it were. For this reason simple apposition is not an independent syntactical category.
The appositive functions very much like a PN in a convertible proposition that is, it refers to the same thing as the first noun.(42) The difference, however, is that a PN makes an assertion about the S (an equative verb is either stated or implied); with appositives there is assumption, not assertion (no verb is in mind). In the sentence “Paul is an apostle,” apostle is a PN; in the sentence, “Paul the apostle is in prison,” apostle is in apposition to Paul.
(40)The nom. occasionally is in apposition to an oblique case, but the semantics are the same. See discussion below.
(41) An appositive, strictly speaking, is substantival, not adjectival. Thus, adjectives or Participles in second attributive position are not generally appositives, but usually hate an adjectival force.
(42) The significance of this will be seen in our discussion of the gen. case, for the gen can also involve a syntactical category, vi.t., the gen of apposition. The semantics involved in such a category are quite different from those involved in simple apposition.
With proper names typically the first noun is anarthrous and the appositional noun is articular. Matt 3:1 παραγινεται ιωαννης ο βαπτιστης κηρυσσων
John the Baptist came Preaching
Mark 15:4 0 εν αις ην και μαρια η μαγδαληνη
among them also were Mary the Magdalene...
Luke 1:24 συνελαβεν ελισαβετ η γυνη αυτου
Elizabeth his wife conceived
Rev 1:5 ο μαρτυς ο πιστος ο πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων
the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, Grand Rapids MI, 1996, Daniel Wallace, pp.48-49
=======
• A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament 2 Co 4:17
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
Literally, “the for the moment (old adverb parautika, here only in N.T.) lightness (old word, in N.T. only here and Mat_11:30).”
More and more exceedingly (kath' huperbolēn eis huperbolēn). Like piling Pelion on Ossa, “according to excess unto excess.” See note on 1Co_12:31.
Eternal weight of glory (aiōnion baros doxēs). Careful balancing of words in contrast (affliction vs. glory, lightness vs. weight, for the moment vs. eternal).
• Vincent Word Studies in the New Testament
A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly
unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20,
exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.


None of these sources support your aionios theory. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent, whom you quote, opposes it, saying:

"The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

https://books.google.ca/books?id=oDVxDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT1952&lpg=PT1952&dq=.There+is+a+word+for+everlasting+if+that+idea+is+demanded&source=bl&ots=kbcwXyQq-_&sig=iFJYNZt2o2GZkw3pr9EGNOB8Oa8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikjoe3jqvVAhXow1QKHZXWA4wQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=.There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded&f=false

https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf


----


https://www.christianforums.com/thr...os-based-on-aion.8040292/page-2#post-72110302


 
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Jordan Henshaw

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The point is that AIDIOS was a - better - word to describe endlessness ( and therefore endless punishment) IF that is what Scripture teaches. Since Scripture never uses that word (or "no end") of punishment, Scripture doesn't teach endless punishment.
Right, so you are making the assertion that aidiois is better than aiōnion, and that because aidiois is not used to describe the punishment of the wicked, then the punishment of the wicked can't be the billions of years kind of eternal.

So then I showed you the only two passages in the New Testament that use the word aidiois. One verse used it to describe God; the other to describe something we know through context to be a finite period of time.

So I don't see where you're getting the idea that aidiois is more eternal than aiōnion.

You are making the assertion that one is better than the other for communicating billions of billions of years, but you haven't supported that claim with anything. Your claim just isn't backed by scripture as far as I can tell.


I'm still trying to understand exactly how you believe those cast into the lake of fire will receive salvation. Purgatory? Are they automatically saved? Why would people who hated God on Earth want to serve Him after He threw them into a lake of burning sulfur? How do they all gain salvation.

We can go back and forth all day on whether or not aidiois means this or that, but if you can't draw a clear picture of how everything works together, then you have no credibility.

Here's mine:

What I believe is that the unrighteous are born, live a sinful life (Romans 3:23), die an earthly death (Hebrews 9:27), are resurrected on Judgment Day (Revelation 20:13), are judged according to their works (Revelation 20:13), weep and gnash their teeth (Luke 13:28), are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15), quickly lose consciousness, and perish once their sin has been burned up (Luke 12:48), and are reduced to ashes (Malachi 4:3). Finally, God will create a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:1), the former things will pass away, and God will wipe every tear from our eyes (Revelation 21:4; Isaiah 65:17). Finally, the righteous will eat of the Tree of Life to life forever (Revelation 2:7). The end (Revelation 22:21).

Or a different version:

Ever since the garden of Eden, God has made it clear that He does NOT intend to torture people forever, and instead PROTECTED Adam and Eve from living forever under the curse of immortality. Then he went on to DESTROY Sodom and Gomorrah with eternal fire. Centuries later, the prophet Isaiah prophesied that God would one day destroy the wicked and that the righteous would go out to look upon their carcasses, and that the memory of them would be despised forever. Also, the prophet Malachi prophesied that the righteous would tread on the ashes of the wicked. Then, we see what the punishment for sin is when Jesus takes it upon himself and suffers the penalty of a relatively short period of intense suffering followed by death. Then, the writers of the New Testament write extensively on the concept of the gift of eternal life – a gift given only to the righteous. They write of how the righteous will specifically be raised from the dead and how the righteous will put on immortality. Then, in Revelation, the wicked are judged according to their works, weep and gnash their teeth, are cast into the lake of fire, and will perish once justice has been rendered. Once this has been accomplished, Revelation prophesies that God will create a new heaven and a new earth and will make all things new. The former will pass and there will be no more sadness or tears. Then, those in Heaven will be given the right to eat of the tree of life, which will allow them to live forever.
 
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ClementofA

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Evidently the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) uses aionios of finite duration:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)
Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)
They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)
He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)
’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios)
decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)
Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land,
and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and
perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)
And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity,
and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)
When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),
with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)
Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,
in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?
where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)
“Don’t be afraid; for you shall not be ashamed: neither be confounded; for you shall not be disappointed: for you shall forget the shame of your youth(aionios);
and the reproach of your widowhood you shall remember no more. (Isa 54:4)
 
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Right, so you are making the assertion that aidiois is better than aiōnion, and that because aidiois is not used to describe the punishment of the wicked, then the punishment of the wicked can't be the billions of years kind of eternal.

So then I showed you the only two passages in the New Testament that use the word aidiois. One verse used it to describe God; the other to describe something we know through context to be a finite period of time.

So I don't see where you're getting the idea that aidiois is more eternal than aiōnion.

AIDIOS is used twice in the Scriptures unambiguously meaning "endless" or "eternal" in both instances. The chains are eternal(AIDIOS) in Jude 6 & God is eternal(AIDIOS) in Rom.1:20. It means "endless" 100% of the time. Likewise the phrase "no end" in Scripture means endless 100% of the time. Scripture never used either AIDIOS or "no end" of the unqualified punishment of anyone. Since these were superior words to use to express endlessness and are never once used of punishment, endless punishment is not taught in the Scriptures. Surely God would have expressed Himself in the most clear manner if such a horrible thing as endless punishment was the truth of His belief.

AIONIOS, OTOH, is often used of finite duration in the Scriptures & in ancient Koine Greek (the same style as NT Greek, as opposed to the Classical Greek of those such as Plato). My previous 2 posts in this thread included a list of uses of AIONION in the Greek OT (LXX or Septuagint) & elsewhere showing the word is used of finite duration. Likewise the word was used of finite duration in extrabiblical Koine Greek, such as for example, early church father Chrysostom said:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

My posts to you with 12 points re the mistranslation "for ever & ever" being of finite duration are also relevant to this topic. Did you get a chance the study them?
 
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ClementofA

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I'm still trying to understand exactly how you believe those cast into the lake of fire will receive salvation. Purgatory? Are they automatically saved? Why would people who hated God on Earth want to serve Him after He threw them into a lake of burning sulfur? How do they all gain salvation.

I doubt they'd be "automatically saved" like robots or puppets. I'd speculate that at some point they hear the gospel (compare 1 Pet.3:18-20; 4:6) & make a free will choice for or against. If they reject then God might give them over to something like what happened to the sexually immoral person of 1 Cor.5:4-5, who was delivered to Satan for destruction that he might be saved. Then at some point after that they might get to hear the gospel again. And so on. Until they're finally saved at some point in the infinite future of endless millenniums. Until then they are left in darkness & to contemplate they're fate, why they are there & such, similar to the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) perhaps.

Another view is they are judged as per Revelation 20. They become dead & without consciousness after entering the LOF. Then much later they are raised again & finally saved as per: As in Adam all die


What I believe is that the unrighteous are born, live a sinful life (Romans 3:23), die an earthly death (Hebrews 9:27), are resurrected on Judgment Day (Revelation 20:13), are judged according to their works (Revelation 20:13), weep and gnash their teeth (Luke 13:28), are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15), quickly lose consciousness, and perish once their sin has been burned up (Luke 12:48), and are reduced to ashes (Malachi 4:3). Finally, God will create a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:1), the former things will pass away, and God will wipe every tear from our eyes (Revelation 21:4; Isaiah 65:17). Finally, the righteous will eat of the Tree of Life to life forever (Revelation 2:7). The end (Revelation 22:21).

Why bring those fated to annihilation back to life & consciousness & nothing but suffering before annihilating them forever? Does the Love of the Omnipotent have an expiry date?
 
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Der Alte

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You didn't answer this:
Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism? How?
If not, why did you post it & similar verses in other writings of Paul, none of which refute universalism either.
As i said:
So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.
Then maybe you can answer one simple question, yes or no:
Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism?
My post [#348] this thread.
Since I highly doubt he will ever stoop to the incredibly low level of answering a question about his beliefs, I will answer the question for you.
No. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 does NOT refute Universalism.
"I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" Saying it does not make it so.
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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I'd speculate that at some point they hear the gospel (compare 1 Pet.3:18-20; 4:6) & make a free will choice for or against. If they reject then God might give them over to something like what happened to the sexually immoral person of 1 Cor.5:4-5, who was delivered to Satan for destruction that he might be saved. Then at some point after that they might get to hear the gospel again.
Would you understand why someone might read that and think it is a little far fetched?

Why bring those fated to annihilation back to life & consciousness & nothing but suffering before annihilating them forever? Does the Love of the Omnipotent have an expiry date?
Because justice must be served. Our God is a just god.

Luke 12:47-48 - "That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded..."

Romans 2:6 - "God 'will repay each one according to his deeds.'”

You are making the argument that it doesn't seem right that God would resurrect a dead man just to punish and destroy Him forever. So either the dead, wicked man must be raised to life, or not at all.

I don't think this is a valid argument because that's just not how justice works.

A person on death row is not killed in his/her sleep. No. That wouldn't be fair. If you shot up a school and massacred dozens of innocent schoolchildren, your punishment should be something much greater than a peaceful, unconscious death in slumber. At least I don't think so.

You're using basic, human principles of justice, so I think it's OK for me to use basic principles of human justice as well. And anyhow, who are we to judge God? Sure, we can look at something ridiculously insane like, "God will torture everyone who doesn't love Him forever" and call it the most evil thing a sentient being could possibly do with just an ounce of regular common sense, but on the smaller things, we really can't judge Him. We can't say that it would be unfair for God to wake people up just to kill them, especially when we do it ourselves (in America at least) to people on death row, and especially when God has given us a very clear, humane, sensible reason for doing so.
 
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