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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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That depends on one's interpretation. For example, the article i linked to earlier:
C. S. Lewis, author of the book "The Problem of Pain"...
Jack (C. S. Lewis) ...
Will all who die in Adam be made alive in Christ
I don't usually respond to these long copy/paste posts but will make an exception. The question is misleading because it twists the words of scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Note how the order of the words in the question were deliberately changed in the question. Paul said "in Christ all will be made alive" he did not say "all...will be made alive in Christ." All men are "in Adam" because all men are physical descendants of Adam. But all men are not inherently "in Christ." Being "in Christ" is the requirement for being made alive. Some people die "in their sins" not "in Christ."
2 Corinthians 5:21
(21) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; t hat we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Ephesians 5:2
(2) And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Where does scripture say that Christ's death on the cross is not efficacious for all men but some men must themselves be punished for some period of time, after death, before they can be redeemed?

 
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Jordan Henshaw

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Where does scripture say that Christ's death on the cross is not efficacious for all men but some men must themselves be punished for some period of time, after death, before they can be redeemed?
Nowhere.
 
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ClementofA

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Why are there ZERO verses that talk about how people who receive eternal, everlasting, and unending punishment are redeemed?

My posts on Dan.12:2 & Mt.25:46 address this:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

aionios life, 2 UR views, eon/ian ends, millennial eon, 1 Jn.1:2, Chrysoston, Origen, Dan 12 2-3:

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

If you were God, how would you attempt to communicate the idea of eternal punishment with no end? If eternal, everlasting, and unending aren't good enough, what other words could you possibly use?

There are the words "no end" (Lk.1:33), and "eternal" (AIDIOS, Jude 6; Rom.1:20) which were - better - suited to express endlessness. If God believed in endless punishment, He should have used the - better - words to express the idea, not a word (AIONION) which is ambiguous & often refers to finite duration. Also why use the word KOLASIS (Mt.25:46) which is often used of - corrective - discipline?
 
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ClementofA

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Jordan Henshaw

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My posts on Dan.12:2 & Mt.25:46 address this:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

aionios life, 2 UR views, eon/ian ends, millennial eon, 1 Jn.1:2, Chrysoston, Origen, Dan 12 2-3:

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?



There are the words "no end" (Lk.1:33), and "eternal" (AIDIOS, Jude 6; Rom.1:20) which were - better - suited to express endlessness. If God believed in endless punishment, He should have used the - better - words to express the idea, not a word (AIONION) which is ambiguous & often refers to finite duration. Also why use the word KOLASIS (Mt.25:46) which is often used of - corrective - discipline?
Luke 1:33 - "and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (eis tous aiōnas). His kingdom will never end (telos)!”

Revelation 19:3 - "And a second time they called out: 'Hallelujah! Her smoke ascends forever and ever (eis tous aiōnas).'”

Revelation 20:10 - "There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (eis tous aiōnas)."

Revelation 22:5 - "They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever (eis tous aiōnas)."

Mark 3:26 - "And if Satan is divided and rises against himself, he cannot stand; his end (telos) has come."

Philippians 3:19 - "Their end (telos) is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame."

Hebrews 6:8 - "But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end (telos) it will be burned."



Jude 6 - "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting (aidiois) chains for judgment on the great Day."


If God believed in endless punishment, He should have used the - better - words to express the idea, not a word (AIONION) which is ambiguous & often refers to finite duration.
He should have said something about purgatory as well.

Also why use the word KOLASIS (Mt.25:46) which is often used of - corrective - discipline?
Um... where did you get that? The word is κόλασιν (kolasin), and only appears one other time in the bible (1 John 4:18 - "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.")

Sorry. Your argument doesn't hold a drop of water. It is built off of the extremely shaky foundation that God actually meant the opposite of what he said because he was only 99% clear instead of 100% clear. And this interpretation creates MASSIVE problems and adds a TON of psuedotheology (purgatory, the wicked being resurrected, a second chance after death) that has ZERO direct grounding in the scriptures.
 
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ClementofA

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Um... where did you get that? The word is κόλασιν (kolasin), and only appears one other time in the bible (1 John 4:18 - "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.")

"κόλασις, κολάσεως, ἡ (κολάζω), CORRECTION, punishment, penalty"

Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- correction

As in a correcting purgatory, to illustrate with a hypothetical example.

Likewise the word "punished" used in 2 Peter 2:9:

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

The Greek word for that can mean "corrected":

1. properly, to lop, prune, as trees, wings.

2. to check, curb, restrain.

3. to chastise, correct, punish: so in the N. T.; passive 2 Peter 2:9, and Lachmann in 4; middle to cause to be punished(3Macc. 7:3): Acts 4:21.

Strong's Greek: 2849. κολάζω (kolazó) -- to chastise
 
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ClementofA

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Philippians 3:19 - "Their end (telos) is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame."

This is easily harmonized with the Scriptural teaching of universalism, the salvation of all:

"So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth." (Gen.6:13)

The "end" of all people was "destruction" by God. This already happened. Yet they are not annihilated forever. And they will be resurrected. Their "end" was only a temporary end or result or outcome. Not final destiny.

Likewise with Phil.3:19.

The earth was destroyed not endlessly annihilated.

Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; 10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil.2:9-11)

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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ClementofA

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Revelation 19:3 - "And a second time they called out: 'Hallelujah! Her smoke ascends forever and ever (eis tous aiōnas).'”

Revelation 20:10 - "There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (eis tous aiōnas)."

Revelation 22:5 - "They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever (eis tous aiōnas)."

Eight verses from the NT which conclusively show that "aion" definitely means "eternity" and "aionios" definitely means "eternal."

Twelve points opposing the opinion that AION is not used of finite time in the Scriptures. The same 12 points showing that even the phrase "into the ages of the ages" is used of finite time in the Bible:

(1) The smoke going up forever and ever (literally, into the ages of the ages, Rev.19:3) is finite in duration. For the fire as the source of the smoke will cease burning after the city is "utterly burned" (Rev.18:8) & "found no more" (18:21). Also the old earth passes away (Rev.21:1), so how would the city continue to smoke "for ever and ever"?

(2) The saints reign for "the ages of the ages" (Rev.22:5). But this is only until all rule & all authority are abolished (1 Cor.15:24). Consequently one interpretation of the phrase "forever and ever" in Rev.22:5 is that it is of finite duration.

(3) Christ reigns "for the ages of the ages" (Rev.11:15). Since His reign is "until" He gives up the kingdom (1 Cor.15:25-26), His reign for "the ages of the ages" is temporary, as is "the ages of the ages" related to it.

(4) Since Scripture teaches universal reconciliaton (e.g. Rev.5:13; Col.1:20), "the ages of the ages" referred to in Rev.20:10 re the torment of the devil cannot be endless. Likewise with other lesser sinners [e.g. humans] that may be punished in the lake of fire (cf. Rev.14:11 which uses a similar phrase, "ages of ages", without the definite article "the").

(5) Comparing Rev.20:10 with Matthew 25:41, Jesus said the future of the devil & his angels is fire aionios (Mt.25:41, 46), mistranslated everlasting or "eternal fire" by pro ECT (eternal conscious torments) Bible versions (e.g. KJV). Fire aionios is also associated with the fire that burnt Sodom (Jude 7). That fire was not eternal, went out long ago, & its effects will last only until Sodom is restored (Ezek 16). Thus there is a Scriptural basis for taking the same phrase, fire aionios, which also occurs at Mt.25:41 & 18:8, as referring to a fire that is of finite duration. Likewise with "into eons of the eons" in Rev.20:10 which also refers to the devil's eonian (Mt.25:41) punishment associated with fire. So the devil's eon related punishment by fire in both Mt.25:41 & Rev.20:10 is finite. Therefore, the period "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. And surely since the devil's torments "into the ages of the ages" end, so do those related to human beings (cf. Rev.14:11; Mt.18:8; 25:41), for the same terminology is applied to them. Moreover, they are less sinful than Satan. If his punishment ends, then why not theirs also? Consequently the mistranslation "forever and ever" in Rev.20:10 & 14:11 refers to a finite period of time, with a beginning and an end.

Summing up the argument:

- eonian fire is finite (Jude 7)
- eonian fire is the devil's punishment (Mt.25:41)
- which is equal to his punishment in Rev.20:10
- therefore his punishment is finite &
- his torment for the eons of the eons is finite &
- the eons of the eons themselves are finite

Regarding Jude 7 the following Interlinear does not say "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aionion":
Jude 1 Interlinear Bible . Similarly, a literal version reads:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLV)

"The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)" (Concordant Commentary of the New Testament, p.376) Concordant Commentary on the New Testament

"We likewise subscribe to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, who "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). This occurred many centuries ago. How poor a passage to apply to that which is thousands of years hence!"

"The word "set forth" is, literally, "lying before." The term "example" or specimen, is from the word show. These are readily comprehended if we apply them to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah today. Their destruction was so complete that their exact location is in dispute. Now the preponderance of opinion places them under the shallow end of the Dead Sea. No one can visit this terrible desolation without fully appreciating the force of these words."

"But we are asked to forget this solemn and forceful scene for an "example" which no one can see, and which is not at all "set forth" or "lying before" us. We are asked to forget the fire (Gen.19:24) which destroyed these cities so that the smoke of the plain went up like the smoke of a furnace. The justice or "vengeance" of this fire is all too evident to this very day. It is a powerful reminder of God's judgment which should deter those who are tempted to follow a similar path. This fire is called "eternal." Just now the plain is covered by water, not fire. It was an eonian fire, as is witnessed by its effect for the eon."

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

"2 Peter 2:6 gives a parallel passage, where we read that God condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them for an example. This is perfectly plain, unless we try to distinguish between the cities and the people, and make conscious cinders suffer from flames beneath the waters of the Dead Sea."

"If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example, but as no one has ever seen them, and no one can see them, they are no example at all. The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God's eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon. When Jerusalem is restored, they will be restored."A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Seven

Next we'll look at a 6th case that occurs in the book of Revelation where our phrase "the ages of the ages" is applied to God, either to His glory or living, etc:

(6) The book of Revelation makes several references to God living (or His glory) "for the eons of the eons" (Revelation 1:6, 18; 4:9-10; 5:13; 7:12; 10:6; 15:7). God living "into the eons of the eons" that end no more denies His future endless life than it denies He was living before the times of the eons (1 Cor.2:7; 2 Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2) that He created (Heb.1:2). "The existence of God is not confined to the eons. He made the eons; therefore, He existed before they began." Eons come & go, but He is both before & after them. Similarly, God is living for the present eon, but that doesn't mean He was dead before it, nor that He will be dead when it ends. Likewise He was living for past eons, but that doesn't mean He died when they ended. Likewise with His glory.

His “years shall not come to end” (Psa.102:27).

Further remarks on this point can be found in the following article in the section titled "Living For the Eons of the Eons": Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Two

So we find the phrases "into ages of ages" & "into the ages of the ages" in 6 category types in Revelation:

- Rev.20:10 the torment of Satan & 2 others
- Rev.14:11 rising smoke of humans tormented
- Rev.19:3 rising smoke of a city burned
- Rev.22:5 saints reigning
- Rev.11:15 Christ reigning
- multiple references to God living or His glory

In at least 5 of the 6 category types above, the vast majority, we have said that the phrase in question is of limited duration. Even if, in the one other case, when the phrase refers to God, it somehow means "forever and ever", e.g. because God is forever, that has no bearing on the other 5 categories which do not connect the phrase with God's life or glory, and do not connect it with something or someone everyone knows is endless.

(7) As documented by scholar Illaria Ramelli, Origen & a number of other early church fathers spoke of an end of all ages & or an end of "ages of ages". See Ramelli's tome below, pages 8-10, 13-14, 112ff, 132, 157-8, 160-1, 167-8, 202. (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp)
Preview of The Christian doctrine of Apokatastasis : a critical assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena [WorldCat.org]

"In Hom. in Ex. 6,13, similarly, Origen foresees the end of all aeons: “Whenever Scripture says, ‘from aeon to aeon,’ the reference is to an interval of time, and it is clear that it will have an end. And if Scripture says, ‘in another aeon,’ what is indicated is clearly a longer time, and yet an end is still fixed. And when the ‘aeons of the aeons’ are mentioned, a certain limit is again posited, perhaps unknown to us, but surely established by God.” (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.161)

"Cf. Apoc. 14:10–11, where the smoke of the tormented sinners rises eis aiônas aiônôn, in saecula saeculorum, which does not self-evidently mean absolutely forever; for Origen,
as we shall see, this will be the time of the aiônes, before the apocatastasis which brings on the aïdiotês. Only the aïdiotês of the universal restoration will be truly forever." (Terms for Eternity: Aionios and Aidios in Classical and Christian Texts, Ilaria Ramelli and David Konstan, 2007, p.69)

...continued at my next post...
 
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ClementofA

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(8) 1 Cor.10:11. Scripture speaks of the "ends of the ages" or eons (1 Cor.10:11) and an "end of the ages" (Heb.9:26). If the phrase "the ages of the ages" meant ages tumbling endlessly one after the other, as some commentators claim, why does Scripture says the ages end?

There were no ends of any eons present when Paul wrote to the Corinthians (1 Cor.10:11). For Jesus spoke of the present eon in which He lived (Mt13:22; Lk.16:8) and its end (Mt.24:3) which has still not arrived almost 2000 years later. The eon that Jesus was living in, which Paul calls the "present evil eon" (Gal.1:4), of which Satan is god (2 Cor.4:4), began before David (Lu. 1:70) and all the prophets (Ac. 3:21), after the end of the world in the days of Noah, thousands of years before the birth of Christ. So, again, there was no eon ending when Paul wrote 1 Cor.10:11, let alone an end of multiple eons. So what is he referring to in speaking of a consummation or end "of the eons" having been attained (1 Cor.10:11)?

"(The) scriptures state positively that the eons will end: 1 Cor. 10:11... "Now those things befalls them typically, yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." Paul had said what those things are, which befalls them typically, in the preceding verses. Yet "it was written" is in the singular, for "our" (plural) admoniton- the "our" referring to the saints, who are the present believers. "To whom," referring to the saints, "the consummations of the eons have attained." The Corinthian saints had attained the consummations of eons in spirit because they were a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17). Some day all will be a new creation (Rev. 21:5). Now, only the saints who are in Christ are of the new creation, but it is God's goal for the eons to head up all in the Christ, as stated at Eph. 1:9-11. Salvation for all is God's plan for the eons. Those saints believing now have attained that purpose, so have attained the consummation of the eons."
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Chapter Five

"It contains the phrase "the ends of the eons," or, as we prefer to render it, "the consummations of the. eons" (1 Cor. 10:11), for they not only come to an end, but culminate in the accomplishment of the purpose (Eph. 3:11) for which they were made (Heb. 1:2)....In our own spirits we have an undeniable foretaste that the eons are accomplishing the purpose for which they were made." (Unsearchable Riches [U.R.], Vol. 58, p.39-40, A.E.K.).

"in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord" (Eph.3:11)
" which He purposed in Him) 10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth" (Eph.1)

"The eons not only come to an end, but culminate in the purpose (Eph.3:ll) for which God made them (Heb.l:2)." (U.R. Vol. 100, p.132-134, J.R.C.)

"Paul is warning the Corinthians not to become disqualified, but to drink out of their spiritual, following Rock—Christ. A strong incentive to do this is that already the consummations of the ages have attained in spirit to the saints. What the ends of the coming eons will bring has already been made known in some measure to the saints. Every one of the four occurrences of the verb katantao in Paul's epistles shews that he used it as a meaning to attain in spirit, to draw up alongside in spirit (1. Cor. 10:11; 14:36; Eph. 4:13; Phil. 3:11)."ALEXANDER THOMSON: An Answer to the Challenge of Hell

"It is not until the consummation when God becomes All in all that His titles can be clearly and fully appreciated. But we, in sense, have been taken ahead of time to the consummation.
The manifestation of Christ through His sacrifice, which we see with the eyes of faith, is vitally connected with the conclusion of the eons according to Hebrews 9:26 where we read, "... yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest." Paul describes us who believe this evangel as those "to whom the consummations of the eons have attained" (1 Cor.lO:ll). The goals toward which God is leading the universe have, in spiritual way, come ahead of time to us. And one of these goals is the manifestation of Himself to His creatures." (U.R., Vol 71, p.77, D.H.H.).

"In spirit, Paul brought those under his ministry into the new creation, which is the spiritual counterpart of the eon inaugurated by the new heavens and new earth. It is only thus that the consummations of the eons had already reached the Corinthians." (U.R. Vol. 100, p.132-134, J.R.C.)....?

"...The evangel of God concerning His Son announces the end of sin and the end of divine indignation. These consummations will be realized throughout the universe when God is All is all, but, in spirit, they have attained to us who are believing (1 Cor. 10:11)." (U.R., Vol 97, p.44, 185, 255, D.H.H.)

If all eons end (1 Cor.10:11), then "eons of eons" (Rev.14:11) and "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. Likewise must the "torment" for these finite time periods also end. What occurs after their end - whether endless torments, endless annihilation or reconciliation to God - is left up to other passages of the Scriptures to reveal.

For elaborations upon this point re 1 Cor.10:11 i'd suggest the following articles & comments:

Unsearchable Riches, Vol 15, p.24-28; Vol 19, p.230; Vol 58, p.39-40; Vol 82, p.238; Vol 97, p.44, 185, 255; Vol 99, p.283; Vol 100, p.131-134 @

Unsearchable Riches


(9) Heb.9:26 refers to an end of the ages. If all ages end, then "the ages of the ages" must end, both in Rev.20:10 & all other contexts of Scripture.

"Origen, reflecting on Heb 9:26 and Eph 2:7, argues that Christ’s sacrifice was made once and for all aeons. These aeons are not infinite or repetitive, but point to one telos, the apokatastasis of all, which is not a result of necessity, but of all rational creatures’ voluntary adhesion to the Good." (Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.202)

A.E. Knoch opined that Hebrews 9:26 and 1 Cor.10:11 are "positive proof that the eons have a conclusion, or "end", and therefore do not last "for ever"...[which] also repudiates the assumptive theory of man that there is an infinite series of ages..." (U.R., Vol. 19, p.230, 1928).

"...the Greek preposition epi, when followed by a dative case, as here, signifies "over," "on the basis of," "with a view to." It was on the basis of a conclusion of the ages, for repudiation of sin through His, sacrifice, that He has been manifested. Epi, when followed by a genitive or accusative case, takes the meaning "on," or "on to," but its metaphorical force comes out generally when the dative case is used. Christ was manifested with a view to the ages being concluded, The ages are the times in which sin and enemies are present, requiring the sacrifice of God's Son. He was manifested so that sin might be set aside through His sacrifice, having in view a conclusion to the ages. He was certainly not manifested at a conclusion of the ages, but His manifestation demands that the eons terminate."ALEXANDER THOMSON: An Answer to the Challenge of Hell

"26 FOR,]lit. 'since it were behoving him, to suffer many times from [the] laying-down of the world, but now, once for all, on the full-end of the ages, has he been manifested with a view to a putting away of sin, through his own sacrifice' " (Robert Young, LL.D., Concise Critical Comments on the New Testament, p.158, also author of Young's Literal Translation & Young's Concordance)
Concise Critical Comments on the New Testament
A commentary on the holy Bible, as literally and idiomatically tr. out of the original languages

"We have been asked concerning Hebrews 9:26, which in the Authorized Version reads as follows: "... but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." It seems to be saying that the "end of the world" occurred when Christ was sacrificed. As A. E. Knoch once said, "This is so impossible that I suppose no one takes it seriously."* The early (1926, 1930) editions of the Concordant Version, hoping to put sense into an enigmatic passage rendered it as follows: "... yet now, once, has He been manifested through His sacrifice, for the repudiation of sin at the conclusion of the eons." ...Neither the AV or the early CV completely reflected the order of the Greek clauses in English. The sublinear reads now yet once on together-finish of-the eons INTO UN-PLACING OF-THE missing THRU THE SACRIFICE OF-Him He-HAS-beenn-made-APPEAR."

"...Even when considering a single eon, the "conclusion" {sunteleia, together-finish) of the eon (e.g., Matt.13:39,40,49; 24:3) is not the absolute end, but a period of time in which the events of that eon culminate. It is compared with a harvest. By definition, an eon's culmination is that portion of it in which its highest point is attained in order to reach a final result. "The signs of the end time all occur within this conclusion. This is the key to this passage. Christ appeared at the commencement of a period which will continue until the end of the eons. It differs from the previous part of the eons because of its new relation to sin, due to His sacrifice. In a sense, the sacrifice settles the question of sin for the rest of the eons, hence the word 'conclusion.' "

""The scope of the book of Hebrews does not include the present time of grace to the nations. Yet there was to be delay, so that its readers would die in faith instead of receiving the promises. This shows that, at that time, and, indeed, throughout our Lord's ministries and the book of Acts, the coming eons were imminent. Consequently, it appeared as if our Lord's sacrifice came just before the kingdom. And is not this, together with the last eon, the harvest season of the eons? With this in mind it is not so very difficult to see that all of the time after His sacrifice is 'conclusion', especially with respect to sin." "

"...The term "at" (the conclusion of the eons) is not strictly correct; it is only that this is the best idiomatic rendering we can make in the Version. The word is actually "on." The idea seems to be this: We are to understand that once Christ had been manifested "for [EIS for the purpose of] the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice," one enters, or comes upon that field of time which we may now view as "the conclusion of the eons." The eonian times which are encompassed with in the scriptural revelation began to conclude once Christ's sacrifice was accomplished - when "He died to Sin once for all time" (Rom.6:10)."

"Until then all awaited His sacrifice. The zenith had not been reached. All was still, so to say, "uphill." But once the great Sacrifice was made, when the Lord declared, "It is accomplished!" (John 19:30), the concluding portion of the eonian times began. The repudiation of sin is achieved through the sacrifice of Christ. It is not realized, however, until God vivifies all mankind, becomes All in all, and reconciles all estranged beings throughout the universe, accomplishing all "through the blood of [Christ's] cross" (Col.l:20; cp. Eph.l:10)."

"Another consideration is that the definite article ("the") does not appear here in the Greek. It is not a matter of "at the conclusion of the eons" at all, even if we are constrained to put it this way in the Version, not yet having found a better solution while still preserving good diction. The idea is not to point to a particular moment, but to speak of having now entered into, or come upon, the concluding portion of the eons, which is thus set in contrast to the former or preceding portion."

"The writer of Hebrews certainly did not know how long the present era would continue. Nor are any such considerations in view, whether in Hebrews 9 or else where in this epistle. Instead, the emphasis of Hebrews is that of the typical nature of the animal sacrifices in their representation of the sacrifice of Christ."

"Even as the blood of calves and he-goats constituted a sufficient and effectual shelter for sin, thus also, the blood of Christ constitutes a sufficient and effectual means for the elimination of sin. If it were not for Christ's sacrifice, all would be doomed; but because of Christ's sacrifice, all will be delivered."

"The viewpoint in Hebrews is antitypical. In other connections it may seem strange to include the rest of this eon and two more in the word 'conclusion.' Yet, when we consider the shadow, it becomes evident that the period here, however described, must include all of the time in which the sacrifice is operative, that is, until its work is accomplished." "

"A concluding portion of a period of time need not necessarily be brief in duration. To say that it must is to confound ordinary usage with essential meaning. Besides, if the testimony of geology and astronomy is true, the first eon (prior to Genesis 1:2) may have been of such great duration that the time from the cross to the consummation actually will prove to be of relatively brief duration." [U.R., Vol. 82, p.16-22, 1991, James R. Coram]

"..the Authorized Version will hardly excuse the rendering of Hebrews 9:26. "But now once in the end of the world hath He appeared . . ." cannot be explained on any rational grounds. Christ has appeared, but it certainly was not at the end of the world. The American Revisers change this to "the end of the age', which is very much better, so far as the word eon is concerned. But it is open to the same objection. The eons have not by any means ended even yet. Christ did not appear at either "the end of the world" or "the end of the ages". And, we may add, sin has not been "put away" in any plain, intelligible sense." (U.R., Vol 17, p.267, 1926, A.E.K.)

"The A. V. tells us that Christ appeared "in the end of the world." This, of course, is impossible, seeing that almost two thousand years have passed since then and the end is not yet. In reality His manifestation marks the commencement of the conclusion of the eons. Just as the offering on the day of shelter, or "atonement" in Israel ushered in year in which there is cleansing of sin, so the sacrifice of Christ commences the conclusion of the eons in which sin is repudiated. A year in Israel, with its round of typical festivals, corresponds to the conclusion of the eons, in which the antitype of these festivals are found." [U.R., Vol 38, p.225, 1947, A.E.K.]

"It is clear that His sacrifice was not at "the end of the world" (A.V.). However, the conclusion of the eon (Matt. 13:39, 40, 49; 24:3) is not the absolute end, but a period of time, which is compared with harvest. The signs of the end time all occur within this conclusion. This is the key to this passage. Christ appeared at the commencement of period which will continue until the end of the eons. It differs from the previous part of the eons because of its new relation to sin, due to His sacrifice. In a sense, the sacrifice settles the question of sin for the rest of the eons, hence the word "conclusion.*
* A more complete explanation of this passage, as rendered in the Concordant Version, is found in Unsearchable Riches, Volume 30, Number (March, 1939)." [U.R., Vol 56, p.156, 1965, A.E.K.]

"This verse is designed to amplify the grand object of His one appearing, that is, Christ appeared once to offer Himself as a sacrifice in order to put away sin at the end of the ages or eons...Repudiation [of sin] is defined as to have no place for [sin] (Keyword Concordance, p. 246). When the last enemy, death, is put out of business, abolished, discarded, made unproductive (1 Corinthians 15:26), then sin will find no place anywhere in His world since sin reigns only in death (Romans 5:20). In other words, when God abolishes death, He also leaves no place for sin. This He will do at the end of the ages or eons. It is for this purpose that Christ has been manifested in His earthly career; and it is His sacrifice at Calvary's cross, His sacrifice for sin that makes sin's repudiation certain, since He is the Lamb of God Which is taking away the sin of the world (John 1:29)."

"...The actual teaching of the passage can be verified as follows: Some current versions of this verse teach that Christ appeared at the end of the ages. Yet according to these same versions Paul, writing years after this appearing, speaks of ages to come (Ephesians 2:7). Thus two "authorized" versions make the apostle Paul flatly contradict what the writer of Hebrews said. Again, the devotees of versions which are not concordant and consistent find themselves involved in another conflict that cannot be reconciled, since their versions teach that Christ "appeared at the end of the ages" while, at the same time, their theology teaches that the ages never end."

"...The Scriptures distinctly and emphatically teach that the eons had a beginning and will also have conclusion. The Scriptures point to time when the eons were not yet in existence, and they point to time when the eons shall pass away." [U.R., vol 60, p.120-122, 1969, F.N.P.]

"This one verse (26) of Hebrews 9 takes us, in one sweeping statement, from the disruption of the world to the conclusion of the eons. Though Christ, as Saviour, is now manifest, sin will not be completely eliminated from the universe until the conclusion of the eons. But the acceptance by God of Christ's offering has made that elimination inevitable. But this wonderful scripture gives further proof that, just as the curtain which veiled God's presence, was rent in the earthly temple at the precise moment of Christ's death, so that spiritual veil which obstructed the approach of the celestials to God, was likewise rent; and there is nothing now, save their own spiritual blindness, to prevent them entering into the presence of God, and offering Him the "logical divine service" which is His due from all His creatures. (U.R., Vol 68, p.259-60, 1977, John H. Essex)

"The conclusion of the eons is likewise involved in obscurity in our versions. They suggest that this august event has already occurred at the manifestation of Christ (Heb.9:26). However the words may be translated, the argument of the passage is clear. The high priest went in every year with the blood of others. Not so Christ. He sacrificed Himself once. There was no sacrifice on His part from the disruption, when sin entered, until His manifestation. Neither will there be any further offering needed all the way to the conclusion of the eons, when sin is repudiated. The single suffering of Christ suffices both for the past and future, from sin's entrance to its exit, from the disruption to the conclusion of the eons, when sin is put away. There is a sense in which sin is "put away" potentially or in the experience of the believer, but in the sense here indicated, as the antithesis of the disruption, it can refer only to the actual removal of sin itself —which will occur at the very time indicated, the conclusion of the eons."
2. The Eon of the Eons

"The Times of the Eons are the scene of sin. They record its entrance and foretell its exit. They had a definite Beginning and will have a definite Consummation...The grand infinitudes of time before the beginning and after the consummation have much in common, chiefly that in the beginning God is All was All: in the consummation He will be All in all. Sin is entirely absent. This cannot be said of any of the eons." The Divine Calendar

"The power of the blood of Christ will prevail until sin is repudiated. This is at the conclusion of the eons."

"...(1 Cor. 2:7:before the world [ages]" and Heb. 9:26: "end of the world", or, as Scofield says, "consummation of the ages" which, by the way, should refer to the future putting
away of sin, not the time of Christ's sacrifice)" [U.R., Vol. 61, 1970, p.9, 270, A.E.K.).

The following website articles elaborate upon this interpretation of Heb.9:26 in more detail:

Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.5, 1913-14, p.199-203, Alan Burns
Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.6, 1914-15, p.258-268, Vladimir Gelesnoff
Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.17, 1926, pgs.265-276, Adolph E. Knoch
Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.30, 1939, pgs.109-116, Adolph E. Knoch
Unsearchable Riches

(10) Some introductory historical remarks are required for the next point. The New Testament quotes from the Greek OT much more often than the Hebrew OT. An Old Testament in the Greek language accepted by the early church was known as the translation of Theodotian (see urls below for details). There was also the early Greek OT known as the LXX or Septuagint which has significant differences with the translation of Theodotian.

THEODOTION - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Table of Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, in English translation

"Theodotion's translation of Daniel supplanted the original LXX version which was quite different. The Book of Hebrews (11:33=Daniel 6:23) and Revelation both agree with Theodotion's translation (Origen's Hexapla contained these translations).
"IBSS - The Bible - Old Testament: Septuagint

"[Theodotian's] translation, however, is seemingly "quoted" in Heb. 11:33 and several times in Revelations! This strongly suggests that Theodotion's version was based upon either a lost Greek translation which competed with the LXX or upon a "revised" LXX...Theodotion's version of Daniel is the one officially accepted by the Church and usually printed in modern editions of the LXX..."St. Pachomius Library: SEPTUAGINT

The book of Daniel is closely associated with the book of Revelation which contains our many references to the phrase "the ages of the ages". It seems, from the quotes above, that John was more likely to have used a Greek OT in harmony with that of Theodotian's rather than the LXX.

In Daniel 12:3 this Greek OT of Theodotian, unlike the LXX, speaks of the "eons and further" [αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι]. This is in the context of resurrection spoken of in verse 2, which recalls the resurrections of the book of Revelation. Could Daniel's reference to "the eons and further" be to a time beyond "the eons of the eons" spoken of in Revelation? Both make reference to eons, but Daniel speaks of what is beyond "the eons". It seems Daniel may be speaking of a time after that of John's Revelation references to eons, which would make "the eons of the eons" of a finite duration. If John had wished to convince his readers of the idea of endless eons, readers who may have been familiar with Daniel 12:3, it seems that speaking of mere "eons of the eons" was not the way to do it.


(11) John of Damascus (676-749 AD) writes of "limitless(απειρους/apeirous) aeons of the aeons". If "eons of the eons" was universally understood as meaning forever and ever or endlessness, would there be a need to add the word "limitless" to it?
απειρους — с греческого на все языки

the use of aion in Plato and John of Damascus
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0675-0749,_Ioannes_Damascenus,_De_Fide_Orthodoxa,_EN.pdf
Iohannes Damascenus - Expositio Accurata Fidei Orthodoxae (MPG 94 0789 1227) [0675-0749] Full Text at Documenta Catholica Omnia
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....a_Fidei_Orthodoxae_(MPG_94_0789_1227),_GM.pdf

Similarly Philo, a contemporary with Jesus, spoke of an unlimited eon. Heleena Keizer wrote "Ton apeiron aiona, "the unlimited aion", is Philo's paraphrase of the more-than-aion expression in Exodus 15:18 describing God's kingship. Before Philo, ton apeiron aiona is attested only once, in a fragment from Aristotle where it has the (non-philosophical) sense of "all, endless time" (chapter II text [33])...The present passage appears to use the phrase in the same sense, while emphasizing the notion of contunuity by the words "not for one moment ungoverned" and "uninterrupted"." ("Life Time Entirety: A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo", Helena M. Keizer, 2010, p.212).
Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo

http://translate.academic.ru/ἄπειρον/el/xx/
http://translate.academic.ru/ἄπειρα/el/xx/

If God wanted to clearly & unambiguously teach endless punishment in the Scriptures, why, then, did Revelation 20:10 not speak of torment for "endless[apeiron] ages"?

(12) The word aion literally means age, or eon. Why would the Lord's word say eons (Rev.20:10) if He meant endlessness? If endlessness was meant, then the Greek language of the time had a number of ways of expressing it unambiguously. In addition to apeiron, there were the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) to express the idea of endlessness. In Luke they are spoken of God's kingdom. Likewise:

σὺ δὲ ὁ αὐτὸς εἶ καὶ τὰ ἔτη σου οὐκ ἐκλείψουσιν (LXX; Psa.102:27, God's years have "no end")
27But thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. Psa.102:27, Brenton LXX trans.
But you remain the same, and your years will never end. (Heb.1:12b)

****************************


1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

Forum
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://lovewins.us/
 
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ClementofA

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Jude 6 - "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting (aidiois) chains for judgment on the great Day."

The verse speaks about angels, so has nothing to do with universalism (all humans will be saved) & says nothing about anyone getting an endless punishment of any sort.

They are kept in "eternal chains"...only "UNTIL" or "unto" or "into" the DAY (not eternity) of judgement. The verse makes no comment on what happens thereafter:


English Standard Version
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness UNTIL the judgment of the great day—

Berean Literal Bible
And the angels not having kept their own domain, but having abandoned the own dwelling, He keeps in eternal chains under darkness, unto the judgment of the great day;

King James Bible
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Definition: into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, among.

Strong's Greek: 1519. εἰς (eis) -- to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)


This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
 
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You didn't answer this:

Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism? How?

If not, why did you post it & similar verses in other writings of Paul, none of which refute universalism either.

As i said:

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Hope Beyond Hell.pdf

Twelve points opposing the opinion that AION is not used of finite time in the Scriptures. The same 12 points showing that even the phrase "into the ages of the ages" is used of finite time in the Bible:

(1) The smoke going up forever and ever (literally, into the ages of the ages, Rev.19:3) is finite in duration. For the fire as the source of the smoke will cease burning after the city is "utterly burned" (Rev.18:8) & "found no more" (18:21). Also the old earth passes away (Rev.21:1), so how would the city continue to smoke "for ever and ever"?

(2) The saints reign for "the ages of the ages" (Rev.22:5). But this is only until all rule & all authority are abolished (1 Cor.15:24). Consequently one interpretation of the phrase "forever and ever" in Rev.22:5 is that it is of finite duration.

(3) Christ reigns "for the ages of the ages" (Rev.11:15). Since His reign is "until" He gives up the kingdom (1 Cor.15:25-26), His reign for "the ages of the ages" is temporary, as is "the ages of the ages" related to it.

(4) Since Scripture teaches universal reconciliaton (e.g. Rev.5:13; Col.1:20), "the ages of the ages" referred to in Rev.20:10 re the torment of the devil cannot be endless. Likewise with other lesser sinners [e.g. humans] that may be punished in the lake of fire (cf. Rev.14:11 which uses a similar phrase, "ages of ages", without the definite article "the").

(5) Comparing Rev.20:10 with Matthew 25:41, Jesus said the future of the devil & his angels is fire aionios (Mt.25:41, 46), mistranslated everlasting or "eternal fire" by pro ECT (eternal conscious torments) Bible versions (e.g. KJV). Fire aionios is also associated with the fire that burnt Sodom (Jude 7). That fire was not eternal, went out long ago, & its effects will last only until Sodom is restored (Ezek 16). Thus there is a Scriptural basis for taking the same phrase, fire aionios, which also occurs at Mt.25:41 & 18:8, as referring to a fire that is of finite duration. Likewise with "into eons of the eons" in Rev.20:10 which also refers to the devil's eonian (Mt.25:41) punishment associated with fire. So the devil's eon related punishment by fire in both Mt.25:41 & Rev.20:10 is finite. Therefore, the period "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. And surely since the devil's torments "into the ages of the ages" end, so do those related to human beings (cf. Rev.14:11; Mt.18:8; 25:41), for the same terminology is applied to them. Moreover, they are less sinful than Satan. If his punishment ends, then why not theirs also? Consequently the mistranslation "forever and ever" in Rev.20:10 & 14:11 refers to a finite period of time, with a beginning and an end.

Summing up the argument:

- eonian fire is finite (Jude 7)
- eonian fire is the devil's punishment (Mt.25:41)
- which is equal to his punishment in Rev.20:10
- therefore his punishment is finite &
- his torment for the eons of the eons is finite &
- the eons of the eons themselves are finite

Regarding Jude 7 the following Interlinear does not say "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aionion":
Jude 1 Interlinear Bible . Similarly, a literal version reads:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLV)

"The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)" (Concordant Commentary of the New Testament, p.376) Concordant Commentary on the New Testament

"We likewise subscribe to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, who "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). This occurred many centuries ago. How poor a passage to apply to that which is thousands of years hence!"

"The word "set forth" is, literally, "lying before." The term "example" or specimen, is from the word show. These are readily comprehended if we apply them to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah today. Their destruction was so complete that their exact location is in dispute. Now the preponderance of opinion places them under the shallow end of the Dead Sea. No one can visit this terrible desolation without fully appreciating the force of these words."

"But we are asked to forget this solemn and forceful scene for an "example" which no one can see, and which is not at all "set forth" or "lying before" us. We are asked to forget the fire (Gen.19:24) which destroyed these cities so that the smoke of the plain went up like the smoke of a furnace. The justice or "vengeance" of this fire is all too evident to this very day. It is a powerful reminder of God's judgment which should deter those who are tempted to follow a similar path. This fire is called "eternal." Just now the plain is covered by water, not fire. It was an eonian fire, as is witnessed by its effect for the eon."

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

"2 Peter 2:6 gives a parallel passage, where we read that God condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them for an example. This is perfectly plain, unless we try to distinguish between the cities and the people, and make conscious cinders suffer from flames beneath the waters of the Dead Sea."

"If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example, but as no one has ever seen them, and no one can see them, they are no example at all. The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God's eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon. When Jerusalem is restored, they will be restored."A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Seven

Next we'll look at a 6th case that occurs in the book of Revelation where our phrase "the ages of the ages" is applied to God, either to His glory or living, etc:

(6) The book of Revelation makes several references to God living (or His glory) "for the eons of the eons" (Revelation 1:6, 18; 4:9-10; 5:13; 7:12; 10:6; 15:7). God living "into the eons of the eons" that end no more denies His future endless life than it denies He was living before the times of the eons (1 Cor.2:7; 2 Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2) that He created (Heb.1:2). "The existence of God is not confined to the eons. He made the eons; therefore, He existed before they began." Eons come & go, but He is both before & after them. Similarly, God is living for the present eon, but that doesn't mean He was dead before it, nor that He will be dead when it ends. Likewise He was living for past eons, but that doesn't mean He died when they ended. Likewise with His glory.

His “years shall not come to end” (Psa.102:27).

Further remarks on this point can be found in the following article in the section titled "Living For the Eons of the Eons": Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Two

So we find the phrases "into ages of ages" & "into the ages of the ages" in 6 category types in Revelation:

- Rev.20:10 the torment of Satan & 2 others
- Rev.14:11 rising smoke of humans tormented
- Rev.19:3 rising smoke of a city burned
- Rev.22:5 saints reigning
- Rev.11:15 Christ reigning
- multiple references to God living or His glory

In at least 5 of the 6 category types above, the vast majority, we have said that the phrase in question is of limited duration. Even if, in the one other case, when the phrase refers to God, it somehow means "forever and ever", e.g. because God is forever, that has no bearing on the other 5 categories which do not connect the phrase with God's life or glory, and do not connect it with something or someone everyone knows is endless.

(7) As documented by scholar Illaria Ramelli, Origen & a number of other early church fathers spoke of an end of all ages & or an end of "ages of ages". See Ramelli's tome below, pages 8-10, 13-14, 112ff, 132, 157-8, 160-1, 167-8, 202. (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp)
Preview of The Christian doctrine of Apokatastasis : a critical assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena [WorldCat.org]

"In Hom. in Ex. 6,13, similarly, Origen foresees the end of all aeons: “Whenever Scripture says, ‘from aeon to aeon,’ the reference is to an interval of time, and it is clear that it will have an end. And if Scripture says, ‘in another aeon,’ what is indicated is clearly a longer time, and yet an end is still fixed. And when the ‘aeons of the aeons’ are mentioned, a certain limit is again posited, perhaps unknown to us, but surely established by God.” (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.161)

"Cf. Apoc. 14:10–11, where the smoke of the tormented sinners rises eis aiônas aiônôn, in saecula saeculorum, which does not self-evidently mean absolutely forever; for Origen,
as we shall see, this will be the time of the aiônes, before the apocatastasis which brings on the aïdiotês. Only the aïdiotês of the universal restoration will be truly forever." (Terms for Eternity: Aionios and Aidios in Classical and Christian Texts, Ilaria Ramelli and David Konstan, 2007, p.69)

...continued at my next post...

(8) 1 Cor.10:11. Scripture speaks of the "ends of the ages" or eons (1 Cor.10:11) and an "end of the ages" (Heb.9:26). If the phrase "the ages of the ages" meant ages tumbling endlessly one after the other, as some commentators claim, why does Scripture says the ages end?

There were no ends of any eons present when Paul wrote to the Corinthians (1 Cor.10:11). For Jesus spoke of the present eon in which He lived (Mt13:22; Lk.16:8) and its end (Mt.24:3) which has still not arrived almost 2000 years later. The eon that Jesus was living in, which Paul calls the "present evil eon" (Gal.1:4), of which Satan is god (2 Cor.4:4), began before David (Lu. 1:70) and all the prophets (Ac. 3:21), after the end of the world in the days of Noah, thousands of years before the birth of Christ. So, again, there was no eon ending when Paul wrote 1 Cor.10:11, let alone an end of multiple eons. So what is he referring to in speaking of a consummation or end "of the eons" having been attained (1 Cor.10:11)?

"(The) scriptures state positively that the eons will end: 1 Cor. 10:11... "Now those things befalls them typically, yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." Paul had said what those things are, which befalls them typically, in the preceding verses. Yet "it was written" is in the singular, for "our" (plural) admoniton- the "our" referring to the saints, who are the present believers. "To whom," referring to the saints, "the consummations of the eons have attained." The Corinthian saints had attained the consummations of eons in spirit because they were a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17). Some day all will be a new creation (Rev. 21:5). Now, only the saints who are in Christ are of the new creation, but it is God's goal for the eons to head up all in the Christ, as stated at Eph. 1:9-11. Salvation for all is God's plan for the eons. Those saints believing now have attained that purpose, so have attained the consummation of the eons."
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Chapter Five

"It contains the phrase "the ends of the eons," or, as we prefer to render it, "the consummations of the. eons" (1 Cor. 10:11), for they not only come to an end, but culminate in the accomplishment of the purpose (Eph. 3:11) for which they were made (Heb. 1:2)....In our own spirits we have an undeniable foretaste that the eons are accomplishing the purpose for which they were made." (Unsearchable Riches [U.R.], Vol. 58, p.39-40, A.E.K.).

"in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord" (Eph.3:11)
" which He purposed in Him) 10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth" (Eph.1)

"The eons not only come to an end, but culminate in the purpose (Eph.3:ll) for which God made them (Heb.l:2)." (U.R. Vol. 100, p.132-134, J.R.C.)

"Paul is warning the Corinthians not to become disqualified, but to drink out of their spiritual, following Rock—Christ. A strong incentive to do this is that already the consummations of the ages have attained in spirit to the saints. What the ends of the coming eons will bring has already been made known in some measure to the saints. Every one of the four occurrences of the verb katantao in Paul's epistles shews that he used it as a meaning to attain in spirit, to draw up alongside in spirit (1. Cor. 10:11; 14:36; Eph. 4:13; Phil. 3:11)."ALEXANDER THOMSON: An Answer to the Challenge of Hell

"It is not until the consummation when God becomes All in all that His titles can be clearly and fully appreciated. But we, in sense, have been taken ahead of time to the consummation.
The manifestation of Christ through His sacrifice, which we see with the eyes of faith, is vitally connected with the conclusion of the eons according to Hebrews 9:26 where we read, "... yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest." Paul describes us who believe this evangel as those "to whom the consummations of the eons have attained" (1 Cor.lO:ll). The goals toward which God is leading the universe have, in spiritual way, come ahead of time to us. And one of these goals is the manifestation of Himself to His creatures." (U.R., Vol 71, p.77, D.H.H.).

"In spirit, Paul brought those under his ministry into the new creation, which is the spiritual counterpart of the eon inaugurated by the new heavens and new earth. It is only thus that the consummations of the eons had already reached the Corinthians." (U.R. Vol. 100, p.132-134, J.R.C.)....?

"...The evangel of God concerning His Son announces the end of sin and the end of divine indignation. These consummations will be realized throughout the universe when God is All is all, but, in spirit, they have attained to us who are believing (1 Cor. 10:11)." (U.R., Vol 97, p.44, 185, 255, D.H.H.)

If all eons end (1 Cor.10:11), then "eons of eons" (Rev.14:11) and "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. Likewise must the "torment" for these finite time periods also end. What occurs after their end - whether endless torments, endless annihilation or reconciliation to God - is left up to other passages of the Scriptures to reveal.

For elaborations upon this point re 1 Cor.10:11 i'd suggest the following articles & comments:

Unsearchable Riches, Vol 15, p.24-28; Vol 19, p.230; Vol 58, p.39-40; Vol 82, p.238; Vol 97, p.44, 185, 255; Vol 99, p.283; Vol 100, p.131-134 @

Unsearchable Riches


(9) Heb.9:26 refers to an end of the ages. If all ages end, then "the ages of the ages" must end, both in Rev.20:10 & all other contexts of Scripture.

"Origen, reflecting on Heb 9:26 and Eph 2:7, argues that Christ’s sacrifice was made once and for all aeons. These aeons are not infinite or repetitive, but point to one telos, the apokatastasis of all, which is not a result of necessity, but of all rational creatures’ voluntary adhesion to the Good." (Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.202)

A.E. Knoch opined that Hebrews 9:26 and 1 Cor.10:11 are "positive proof that the eons have a conclusion, or "end", and therefore do not last "for ever"...[which] also repudiates the assumptive theory of man that there is an infinite series of ages..." (U.R., Vol. 19, p.230, 1928).

"...the Greek preposition epi, when followed by a dative case, as here, signifies "over," "on the basis of," "with a view to." It was on the basis of a conclusion of the ages, for repudiation of sin through His, sacrifice, that He has been manifested. Epi, when followed by a genitive or accusative case, takes the meaning "on," or "on to," but its metaphorical force comes out generally when the dative case is used. Christ was manifested with a view to the ages being concluded, The ages are the times in which sin and enemies are present, requiring the sacrifice of God's Son. He was manifested so that sin might be set aside through His sacrifice, having in view a conclusion to the ages. He was certainly not manifested at a conclusion of the ages, but His manifestation demands that the eons terminate."ALEXANDER THOMSON: An Answer to the Challenge of Hell

"26 FOR,]lit. 'since it were behoving him, to suffer many times from [the] laying-down of the world, but now, once for all, on the full-end of the ages, has he been manifested with a view to a putting away of sin, through his own sacrifice' " (Robert Young, LL.D., Concise Critical Comments on the New Testament, p.158, also author of Young's Literal Translation & Young's Concordance)
Concise Critical Comments on the New Testament
A commentary on the holy Bible, as literally and idiomatically tr. out of the original languages

"We have been asked concerning Hebrews 9:26, which in the Authorized Version reads as follows: "... but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." It seems to be saying that the "end of the world" occurred when Christ was sacrificed. As A. E. Knoch once said, "This is so impossible that I suppose no one takes it seriously."* The early (1926, 1930) editions of the Concordant Version, hoping to put sense into an enigmatic passage rendered it as follows: "... yet now, once, has He been manifested through His sacrifice, for the repudiation of sin at the conclusion of the eons." ...Neither the AV or the early CV completely reflected the order of the Greek clauses in English. The sublinear reads now yet once on together-finish of-the eons INTO UN-PLACING OF-THE missing THRU THE SACRIFICE OF-Him He-HAS-beenn-made-APPEAR."

"...Even when considering a single eon, the "conclusion" {sunteleia, together-finish) of the eon (e.g., Matt.13:39,40,49; 24:3) is not the absolute end, but a period of time in which the events of that eon culminate. It is compared with a harvest. By definition, an eon's culmination is that portion of it in which its highest point is attained in order to reach a final result. "The signs of the end time all occur within this conclusion. This is the key to this passage. Christ appeared at the commencement of a period which will continue until the end of the eons. It differs from the previous part of the eons because of its new relation to sin, due to His sacrifice. In a sense, the sacrifice settles the question of sin for the rest of the eons, hence the word 'conclusion.' "

""The scope of the book of Hebrews does not include the present time of grace to the nations. Yet there was to be delay, so that its readers would die in faith instead of receiving the promises. This shows that, at that time, and, indeed, throughout our Lord's ministries and the book of Acts, the coming eons were imminent. Consequently, it appeared as if our Lord's sacrifice came just before the kingdom. And is not this, together with the last eon, the harvest season of the eons? With this in mind it is not so very difficult to see that all of the time after His sacrifice is 'conclusion', especially with respect to sin." "

"...The term "at" (the conclusion of the eons) is not strictly correct; it is only that this is the best idiomatic rendering we can make in the Version. The word is actually "on." The idea seems to be this: We are to understand that once Christ had been manifested "for [EIS for the purpose of] the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice," one enters, or comes upon that field of time which we may now view as "the conclusion of the eons." The eonian times which are encompassed with in the scriptural revelation began to conclude once Christ's sacrifice was accomplished - when "He died to Sin once for all time" (Rom.6:10)."

"Until then all awaited His sacrifice. The zenith had not been reached. All was still, so to say, "uphill." But once the great Sacrifice was made, when the Lord declared, "It is accomplished!" (John 19:30), the concluding portion of the eonian times began. The repudiation of sin is achieved through the sacrifice of Christ. It is not realized, however, until God vivifies all mankind, becomes All in all, and reconciles all estranged beings throughout the universe, accomplishing all "through the blood of [Christ's] cross" (Col.l:20; cp. Eph.l:10)."

"Another consideration is that the definite article ("the") does not appear here in the Greek. It is not a matter of "at the conclusion of the eons" at all, even if we are constrained to put it this way in the Version, not yet having found a better solution while still preserving good diction. The idea is not to point to a particular moment, but to speak of having now entered into, or come upon, the concluding portion of the eons, which is thus set in contrast to the former or preceding portion."

"The writer of Hebrews certainly did not know how long the present era would continue. Nor are any such considerations in view, whether in Hebrews 9 or else where in this epistle. Instead, the emphasis of Hebrews is that of the typical nature of the animal sacrifices in their representation of the sacrifice of Christ."

"Even as the blood of calves and he-goats constituted a sufficient and effectual shelter for sin, thus also, the blood of Christ constitutes a sufficient and effectual means for the elimination of sin. If it were not for Christ's sacrifice, all would be doomed; but because of Christ's sacrifice, all will be delivered."

"The viewpoint in Hebrews is antitypical. In other connections it may seem strange to include the rest of this eon and two more in the word 'conclusion.' Yet, when we consider the shadow, it becomes evident that the period here, however described, must include all of the time in which the sacrifice is operative, that is, until its work is accomplished." "

"A concluding portion of a period of time need not necessarily be brief in duration. To say that it must is to confound ordinary usage with essential meaning. Besides, if the testimony of geology and astronomy is true, the first eon (prior to Genesis 1:2) may have been of such great duration that the time from the cross to the consummation actually will prove to be of relatively brief duration." [U.R., Vol. 82, p.16-22, 1991, James R. Coram]

"..the Authorized Version will hardly excuse the rendering of Hebrews 9:26. "But now once in the end of the world hath He appeared . . ." cannot be explained on any rational grounds. Christ has appeared, but it certainly was not at the end of the world. The American Revisers change this to "the end of the age', which is very much better, so far as the word eon is concerned. But it is open to the same objection. The eons have not by any means ended even yet. Christ did not appear at either "the end of the world" or "the end of the ages". And, we may add, sin has not been "put away" in any plain, intelligible sense." (U.R., Vol 17, p.267, 1926, A.E.K.)

"The A. V. tells us that Christ appeared "in the end of the world." This, of course, is impossible, seeing that almost two thousand years have passed since then and the end is not yet. In reality His manifestation marks the commencement of the conclusion of the eons. Just as the offering on the day of shelter, or "atonement" in Israel ushered in year in which there is cleansing of sin, so the sacrifice of Christ commences the conclusion of the eons in which sin is repudiated. A year in Israel, with its round of typical festivals, corresponds to the conclusion of the eons, in which the antitype of these festivals are found." [U.R., Vol 38, p.225, 1947, A.E.K.]

"It is clear that His sacrifice was not at "the end of the world" (A.V.). However, the conclusion of the eon (Matt. 13:39, 40, 49; 24:3) is not the absolute end, but a period of time, which is compared with harvest. The signs of the end time all occur within this conclusion. This is the key to this passage. Christ appeared at the commencement of period which will continue until the end of the eons. It differs from the previous part of the eons because of its new relation to sin, due to His sacrifice. In a sense, the sacrifice settles the question of sin for the rest of the eons, hence the word "conclusion.*
* A more complete explanation of this passage, as rendered in the Concordant Version, is found in Unsearchable Riches, Volume 30, Number (March, 1939)." [U.R., Vol 56, p.156, 1965, A.E.K.]

"This verse is designed to amplify the grand object of His one appearing, that is, Christ appeared once to offer Himself as a sacrifice in order to put away sin at the end of the ages or eons...Repudiation [of sin] is defined as to have no place for [sin] (Keyword Concordance, p. 246). When the last enemy, death, is put out of business, abolished, discarded, made unproductive (1 Corinthians 15:26), then sin will find no place anywhere in His world since sin reigns only in death (Romans 5:20). In other words, when God abolishes death, He also leaves no place for sin. This He will do at the end of the ages or eons. It is for this purpose that Christ has been manifested in His earthly career; and it is His sacrifice at Calvary's cross, His sacrifice for sin that makes sin's repudiation certain, since He is the Lamb of God Which is taking away the sin of the world (John 1:29)."

"...The actual teaching of the passage can be verified as follows: Some current versions of this verse teach that Christ appeared at the end of the ages. Yet according to these same versions Paul, writing years after this appearing, speaks of ages to come (Ephesians 2:7). Thus two "authorized" versions make the apostle Paul flatly contradict what the writer of Hebrews said. Again, the devotees of versions which are not concordant and consistent find themselves involved in another conflict that cannot be reconciled, since their versions teach that Christ "appeared at the end of the ages" while, at the same time, their theology teaches that the ages never end."

"...The Scriptures distinctly and emphatically teach that the eons had a beginning and will also have conclusion. The Scriptures point to time when the eons were not yet in existence, and they point to time when the eons shall pass away." [U.R., vol 60, p.120-122, 1969, F.N.P.]

"This one verse (26) of Hebrews 9 takes us, in one sweeping statement, from the disruption of the world to the conclusion of the eons. Though Christ, as Saviour, is now manifest, sin will not be completely eliminated from the universe until the conclusion of the eons. But the acceptance by God of Christ's offering has made that elimination inevitable. But this wonderful scripture gives further proof that, just as the curtain which veiled God's presence, was rent in the earthly temple at the precise moment of Christ's death, so that spiritual veil which obstructed the approach of the celestials to God, was likewise rent; and there is nothing now, save their own spiritual blindness, to prevent them entering into the presence of God, and offering Him the "logical divine service" which is His due from all His creatures. (U.R., Vol 68, p.259-60, 1977, John H. Essex)

"The conclusion of the eons is likewise involved in obscurity in our versions. They suggest that this august event has already occurred at the manifestation of Christ (Heb.9:26). However the words may be translated, the argument of the passage is clear. The high priest went in every year with the blood of others. Not so Christ. He sacrificed Himself once. There was no sacrifice on His part from the disruption, when sin entered, until His manifestation. Neither will there be any further offering needed all the way to the conclusion of the eons, when sin is repudiated. The single suffering of Christ suffices both for the past and future, from sin's entrance to its exit, from the disruption to the conclusion of the eons, when sin is put away. There is a sense in which sin is "put away" potentially or in the experience of the believer, but in the sense here indicated, as the antithesis of the disruption, it can refer only to the actual removal of sin itself —which will occur at the very time indicated, the conclusion of the eons."
2. The Eon of the Eons

"The Times of the Eons are the scene of sin. They record its entrance and foretell its exit. They had a definite Beginning and will have a definite Consummation...The grand infinitudes of time before the beginning and after the consummation have much in common, chiefly that in the beginning God is All was All: in the consummation He will be All in all. Sin is entirely absent. This cannot be said of any of the eons." The Divine Calendar

"The power of the blood of Christ will prevail until sin is repudiated. This is at the conclusion of the eons."

"...(1 Cor. 2:7:before the world [ages]" and Heb. 9:26: "end of the world", or, as Scofield says, "consummation of the ages" which, by the way, should refer to the future putting
away of sin, not the time of Christ's sacrifice)" [U.R., Vol. 61, 1970, p.9, 270, A.E.K.).

The following website articles elaborate upon this interpretation of Heb.9:26 in more detail:

Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.5, 1913-14, p.199-203, Alan Burns
Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.6, 1914-15, p.258-268, Vladimir Gelesnoff
Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.17, 1926, pgs.265-276, Adolph E. Knoch
Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.30, 1939, pgs.109-116, Adolph E. Knoch
Unsearchable Riches

(10) Some introductory historical remarks are required for the next point. The New Testament quotes from the Greek OT much more often than the Hebrew OT. An Old Testament in the Greek language accepted by the early church was known as the translation of Theodotian (see urls below for details). There was also the early Greek OT known as the LXX or Septuagint which has significant differences with the translation of Theodotian.

THEODOTION - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Table of Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, in English translation

"Theodotion's translation of Daniel supplanted the original LXX version which was quite different. The Book of Hebrews (11:33=Daniel 6:23) and Revelation both agree with Theodotion's translation (Origen's Hexapla contained these translations).
"IBSS - The Bible - Old Testament: Septuagint

"[Theodotian's] translation, however, is seemingly "quoted" in Heb. 11:33 and several times in Revelations! This strongly suggests that Theodotion's version was based upon either a lost Greek translation which competed with the LXX or upon a "revised" LXX...Theodotion's version of Daniel is the one officially accepted by the Church and usually printed in modern editions of the LXX..."St. Pachomius Library: SEPTUAGINT

The book of Daniel is closely associated with the book of Revelation which contains our many references to the phrase "the ages of the ages". It seems, from the quotes above, that John was more likely to have used a Greek OT in harmony with that of Theodotian's rather than the LXX.

In Daniel 12:3 this Greek OT of Theodotian, unlike the LXX, speaks of the "eons and further" [αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι]. This is in the context of resurrection spoken of in verse 2, which recalls the resurrections of the book of Revelation. Could Daniel's reference to "the eons and further" be to a time beyond "the eons of the eons" spoken of in Revelation? Both make reference to eons, but Daniel speaks of what is beyond "the eons". It seems Daniel may be speaking of a time after that of John's Revelation references to eons, which would make "the eons of the eons" of a finite duration. If John had wished to convince his readers of the idea of endless eons, readers who may have been familiar with Daniel 12:3, it seems that speaking of mere "eons of the eons" was not the way to do it.


(11) John of Damascus (676-749 AD) writes of "limitless(απειρους/apeirous) aeons of the aeons". If "eons of the eons" was universally understood as meaning forever and ever or endlessness, would there be a need to add the word "limitless" to it?
απειρους — с греческого на все языки

the use of aion in Plato and John of Damascus
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0675-0749,_Ioannes_Damascenus,_De_Fide_Orthodoxa,_EN.pdf
Iohannes Damascenus - Expositio Accurata Fidei Orthodoxae (MPG 94 0789 1227) [0675-0749] Full Text at Documenta Catholica Omnia
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....a_Fidei_Orthodoxae_(MPG_94_0789_1227),_GM.pdf

Similarly Philo, a contemporary with Jesus, spoke of an unlimited eon. Heleena Keizer wrote "Ton apeiron aiona, "the unlimited aion", is Philo's paraphrase of the more-than-aion expression in Exodus 15:18 describing God's kingship. Before Philo, ton apeiron aiona is attested only once, in a fragment from Aristotle where it has the (non-philosophical) sense of "all, endless time" (chapter II text [33])...The present passage appears to use the phrase in the same sense, while emphasizing the notion of contunuity by the words "not for one moment ungoverned" and "uninterrupted"." ("Life Time Entirety: A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo", Helena M. Keizer, 2010, p.212).
Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo

http://translate.academic.ru/ἄπειρον/el/xx/
http://translate.academic.ru/ἄπειρα/el/xx/

If God wanted to clearly & unambiguously teach endless punishment in the Scriptures, why, then, did Revelation 20:10 not speak of torment for "endless[apeiron] ages"?

(12) The word aion literally means age, or eon. Why would the Lord's word say eons (Rev.20:10) if He meant endlessness? If endlessness was meant, then the Greek language of the time had a number of ways of expressing it unambiguously. In addition to apeiron, there were the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) to express the idea of endlessness. In Luke they are spoken of God's kingdom. Likewise:

σὺ δὲ ὁ αὐτὸς εἶ καὶ τὰ ἔτη σου οὐκ ἐκλείψουσιν (LXX; Psa.102:27, God's years have "no end")
27But thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. Psa.102:27, Brenton LXX trans.
But you remain the same, and your years will never end. (Heb.1:12b)

****************************


1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

Forum
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Love Wins Because God Is Love… | For Whom nothing is impossible…Love NEVER Fails!
I will not respond to posts which consist mostly of long irrelevant repetitious copy/paste responses.
 
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You didn't answer this:

Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism? How?

If not, why did you post it & similar verses in other writings of Paul, none of which refute universalism either.

As i said:

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Hope Beyond Hell.pdf


The preaching of the Gospel of Christ is universal, the offering of salvation by JESUS is Universal, for JESUS is the true light that came to the world to enlightens every man that comes into the world, but in say that all mankind will be saved because God is good, that is a LIE, it is an invention of the Devil, it is a doctrine of demons.

UNIVERSALISM IS AN INVENTION OF THE DEVIL, IT IS A DOCTRINE OF DEMONS.

In fact, God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life, for God sent not His Son into the world to CONDEMN the world; but that the WORLD through Him might be saved.

He that believes in JESUS (as say Scriptures) is not condemned:

He that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
This is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were (and are) evil.
For every one that does evil HATES the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Did the whole world believe in JESUS? No, therefore, the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
Yea, the wrath of God is revealed AGAINST THEM because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it unto them.

Well, the invisible things of God, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; s
o that they are without excuse.

When they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Yea, the Earth is full, or better, infested, of idolatries and idolaters. They all are lost and destined to eternal fire, the firee of hell).

Here goes the consequences of the idolaters and of all kind of sinful men:

God gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies among themselves,
as is written not only in 1Corinthians 6:9to11,
who changed the TRUTH of God into a LIE, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up to vile affections, for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature, and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly
(sodomites), and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

And even they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over reprobate mind, of those things which are not convenient, being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, HATERS of God, despiteful, proud, boasters,
INVENTOR OF EVIL THINGS (the satanic theory of Universalism is one of them), disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful, who KNOWING the righteous Judgment of God, that they commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

They all are lost and will be cast down into the lake of fire.

The Word is God. God is the Word. He said and is written: Let there be light, and there was light, because the Word is God and when He speaks, His Word fulfil itself LITERALLY, because the Word is God. And He is Light.
 
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Oseas

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I used Romans 5:18-19 to prove universalism from Romans.

You interpret Scriptures LITERALLY, not Spiritually. The Most High God has even made us

competent to be workers serving a New Covenant,
the ESSENCE OF WHICH is not a written

text but the Spirit. For the written text brings death, but the Spirit gives life. (2Cor.3:v.6)


Do you believe that there is one God? You do well:
the devils also believe, and the thought

makes them shudder with fear!
 
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Oseas

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[QUOTE ClementofA post: 72463114] ... they are not annihilated forever. ... Their "end" was only a temporary end or result or outcome. Not final destiny.[/QUOTE]

There was a very special reason they were not annihilated forever in that time. They would stay in prison and would go to wait until the manifestation of JESUS or until the first coming of JESUS.

1Peter 3:17to22 & 4:1to7 & 12to18

17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

4:1to7 & 12to18
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye;
for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For
the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

 
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Oseas

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Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

You said that. It is not true.

Revelation 21:5to8

5 And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters,
and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 19:19to21
19 And I saw the Beast
(the Beast that was rise up out of the sea-Rev.13:1to10), and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the Beast was taken (the first Beast), and with him the false prophet(this is the Beast that was rise up out of the earth - a second Beast - Rev.13:11-18) that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the Beast(the first Beast), and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the Sword of him that sat upon the horse, which Sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


 
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ClementofA

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Were the people of Noah's day "corrected" by the punishment God imposed i.e. destroyed all of them in a flood? Were the inhabitants of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain "corrected" when God destroyed them by fire? Were the inhabitants of all the canaanite cities God told the Israelites to go into and kill all the inhabitants men, women and children corrected by that punishment? Were 3000 who were killed when Moses came down from the mountain "corrected?"

Ever hear of death bed repentance? Or two thieves on crosses dying with Jesus?

Scripture doesn't say they were corrected - or God was working by His Spirit to try to correct & save them - or deny it. So irrelevant.

The fact remains:

Many scriptures show God's punishments in this life are corrective & there's nothing in the Bible saying that He suddenly changes His ways in that regard postmortem.


---------------------------

Have you ever feared going to endless torments?
Does the fear or belief in hell make you a better person?
Do you follow Jesus for fire insurance?

No, no and no. The only sermon on hell I ever heard I preached in '95,"Lessons from Hell University."

You answered "no" to the 3 questions above. You've never feared endless torments, so why should anyone else else fear endless torments or pay any attention to your remarks on the subject?

Then why do you spend so much time & effort opposing annihilation & universalism & arguing for endless torments. Why would it matter to you what anyone believes regarding these things. Shouldn't you be on other forums here preaching the gospel to the lost who you think are headed to endless tortures, instead of trying to convince Christians about your interpretation of what will occur in the afterlife?

I will not respond to posts which consist mostly of long irrelevant repetitious copy/paste responses.

Then maybe you can answer one simple question, yes or no:

Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism?

http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Hope Beyond Hell.pdf
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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They are kept in "eternal chains"...only "UNTIL" or "unto" or "into" the DAY (not eternity) of judgement. The verse makes no comment on what happens thereafter:
EXACTLY! It uses the word aidiois, which you claimed was the word that God should have used in verses like 2 Thessalonians 1:9 if he meant the true, unending, trillions of trillions of eons kind of eternity. So I showed you that your aidiois isn't any better than aiōnion. As seen in Jude 1:6, aidiois can refer to a finite period of time as well!

Keep up.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
I truly, honestly have no idea how this impacts anything. This is just pure silliness.

If you want to prove Universalism, at least use passages that talk about the punishment of the wicked. At least use passages that talk about salvation.

Please, for your own good.
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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Then maybe you can answer one simple question, yes or no:

Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism?
Since I highly doubt he will ever stoop to the incredibly low level of answering a question about his beliefs, I will answer the question for you.

No. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 does NOT refute Universalism.
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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Have you ever feared going to endless torments?
Does the fear or belief in hell make you a better person?
Do you follow Jesus for fire insurance?
Is this the bulk of your argument? An emotional appeal to fear?

Are you kidding?

This is a theological discussion; not a group therapy session.

Get with the program.
 
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