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Oseas

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A chess game is not about getting into heaven.

I guess the point of the chess example is that our efforts to resist salvation are non existent against one with far superior powers.

Simply put, the One Who is Love Omnipotent can cause you to have faith anytime it pleases Him. He doesn't need to send any being into endless oblivion or torments.

He can use His other abilities, such as Omnipresence & Omniscience, which relates to the chess example, to the same effect.

Potter & clay.

For more discussion on this type of topic:

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Is that a question one can imagine about the Almighty God?

Anyway, I remind you that the angels which kept not their first estate
(their celestial /heavenly estate), but left their own habitation (celestial habitation), God has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the Judgment of this Great Day, that is the seventh and last Day or seventh and last Millennium, the Millennium of Christ. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner (of the angels), giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Well, God CURSED the Devil, and after He CURSED the Earth because of man, and later God CURSED Cain because Cain killed his own brother, and now, even now, in this Great Day, that is the Last Millennium or Last Day,
the Lord JESUS has already CURSED expressly all them which are at His left hand, as He said:
Then shall He (JESUS) say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye CURSED, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his messengers,
 
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Der Alte

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This is almost infuriating. Again, you completely missed the point.
The point of that line was not to establish an authority, but to borrow a more eloquent writer's commentary on the subject that more effectively communicated the idea to be expressed. He is not asking you to trust that commentator's words. He is trying to communicate an idea. He is not trying to prove anything. He is simply trying to communicate more effectively.
In a court, it would maybe qualify as hearsay, but no lawyer would object to it because the purpose of it is so clearly to communicate rather than to prove. Especially since the quoted statement is not even declarative in nature, but is instead a series of questions.
Thank you for this off topic input. I understood the scripture quite well, in three languages, and some of a 4th, without all that extraneous "eloquence."
 
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ClementofA

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Note the tenses of the verbs "Were" past tense. "Are, present tense.

How does this relate to the fact that 1 Cor.6:9-11 does not refute universalism?

Please show me any verse(s) which state that all those groups that Paul mentioned will be cleansed?

How does this relate to the fact that 1 Cor.6:9-11 does not refute universalism?

No they are not! What did the Corinthians, Galatians and Ephesians understand when Paul said all those groups would not inherit the kingdom of God? There is no record that they were ever told anything different.

How does this relate to the fact that 1 Cor.6:9-11 does not refute universalism?

Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism? How?
... would have understood and Paul did not tell them otherwise. point, set, ma
And what did Paul say?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?


It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Hope Beyond Hell.pdf
 
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Der Alte

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How does this relate to the fact that 1 Cor.6:9-11 does not refute universalism?
How does this relate to the fact that 1 Cor.6:9-11 does not refute universalism?
How does this relate to the fact that 1 Cor.6:9-11 does not refute universalism?
Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism? How?.
It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:
1 Cor 6:9-11
"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
As a commentator says:
"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"
"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."
So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.
I have already addressed all this which you have simply ignored. Repeating the same thing over and over does not validate it. All this is "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" Does not address anything, does not refute or prove anything. Evidently you do not understand the significance of the tense of verbs. I was [past tense] an unrepentant sinner, I am [present tense] no longer an unrepentant sinner. Many people are [present tense] unrepentant sinners. Please show me a verse(s), where God or Jesus themselves speaking, say that those who die unrepentant sinners will be cleansed after death?
 
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ClementofA

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Der Alte

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You didn't answer this:
Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism? How?
If not, why did you post it & similar verses in other writings of Paul, none of which refute universalism either.
I already have. Your only response is "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" and "the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation." Where does Paul tell the Corinthians, Galatians and Ephesians that all the groups he said would not inherit the kingdom of God, will ultimately inherit the kingdom of God?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

 
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Jordan Henshaw

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I already have. Your only response is "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" and "the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation." Where does Paul tell the Corinthians, Galatians and Ephesians that all the groups he said would not inherit the kingdom of God, will ultimately inherit the kingdom of God?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
You're not listening to the opposing argument. He is trying to tell you that everyone goes from being bad to being good. Obviously a bad person won't go to heaven. All Christians however were bad at one point in time. The point he is making is that everyone will eventually turn from bad to good. You are not addressing that. You have ignored that idea altogether.

The problem with this idea is that we know bad people die. Hitler was a bad person. He definitely wasn't a Christian. And it is extremely safe to assume he died that way. He didn't change from being a bad person to being a good person in this world.

So how can he magically go from being bad to being good? Does anything in the Bible talk about how dead people can become righteous? Is there any talk of a "purgatory" like place where people go to get a second chance?

No. Not at all. There is ZERO evidence of this. Nothing in the bible says that people who have died on earth have a second chance to change from being bad to being good. There is zero mention of purgatory. There is zero mention of a second chance for dead people.

Universalism just isn't Biblical. It relies entirely on concepts that have absolutely no grounding in scripture.
 
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Der Alte

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Begin quote
You're not listening to the opposing argument. He is trying to tell you that everyone goes from being bad to being good. Obviously a bad person won't go to heaven. All Christians however were bad at one point in time. The point he is making is that everyone will eventually turn from bad to good. You are not addressing that. You have ignored that idea altogether.
The problem with this idea is that we know bad people die. Hitler was a bad person. He definitely wasn't a Christian. And it is extremely safe to assume he died that way. He didn't change from being a bad person to being a good person in this world.
So how can he magically go from being bad to being good? Does anything in the Bible talk about how dead people can become righteous? Is there any talk of a "purgatory" like place where people go to get a second chance?
No. Not at all. There is ZERO evidence of this. Nothing in the bible says that people who have died on earth have a second chance to change from being bad to being good. There is zero mention of purgatory. There is zero mention of a second chance for dead people.
Universalism just isn't Biblical. It relies entirely on concepts that have absolutely no grounding in scripture
.
That is exactly what I have been saying. I quoted 1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:5, which he said over and over "are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation." and asked him where does Paul tell the churches at Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus that all the groups Paul said would not inherit the kingdom of God, will somehow, after death, ultimately inherit the kingdom of God?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

I wonder if the phrase "these verses are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation." is some kind of magical incantation which will supposedly make it happen.
 
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ClementofA

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You're not listening to the opposing argument. He is trying to tell you that everyone goes from being bad to being good. Obviously a bad person won't go to heaven. All Christians however were bad at one point in time. The point he is making is that everyone will eventually turn from bad to good. You are not addressing that. You have ignored that idea altogether.

Good point. There is nothing in the passages he quoted saying the unrighteous can't become righteous after death, just as they can before death. So none of the passages quoted were inharmonious with universalism. You agree?

The problem with this idea is that we know bad people die. Hitler was a bad person. He definitely wasn't a Christian. And it is extremely safe to assume he died that way. He didn't change from being a bad person to being a good person in this world.

So how can he magically go from being bad to being good? Does anything in the Bible talk about how dead people can become righteous? Is there any talk of a "purgatory" like place where people go to get a second chance?

No. Not at all. There is ZERO evidence of this. Nothing in the bible says that people who have died on earth have a second chance to change from being bad to being good. There is zero mention of purgatory. There is zero mention of a second chance for dead people.

Universalism just isn't Biblical. It relies entirely on concepts that have absolutely no grounding in scripture.

All the passages of the Scriptures that universalists point to to support universalism prove there is after death salvation. OTOH there is no verse saying people don't get a second chance or unlimited chances, that God's love expires like a carton of milk at the moment a sinner croaks, or that they can't be saved in the hereafter. Many scriptures show God's punishments in this life are corrective & there's nothing in the Bible saying that He suddenly changes His ways in that regard postmortem.
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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I wonder if the phrase "these verses are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation." is some kind of magical incantation which will supposedly make it happen.
If I understand what he is arguing correctly, his view is perfectly in line with those verses.

The only thing those verses say is that bad people don't go to heaven. He is not arguing that bad people go to heaven. He is arguing that all bad people get turned into good people and then go to heaven. So verses talking about how bad people don't go to heaven do nothing to refute his position.

You have to find verses that say that bad people who die on earth can't be changed into good people later on.

Or, show that there is a complete absence of verses that talk about dead people changing from good to bad.
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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All the passages of the Scriptures that universalists point to to support universalism prove there is after death salvation.
What I see in the verses is that they all say that Salvation is for everyone - that Jesus died for the sins of all and that the whole world will be saved.

I don't think they mean that every last person will be saved.

Why?

The bible consistently talks about an eternal punishment for the wicked. It is called the second death. It is the lake of fire. It is the same eternal fire that destroyed Sodom. It is eternal in result. It will burn the wicked to ashes. The righteous will walk upon their ashes. The wicked will be destroyed.

Matthew 7:13; John 17:12; Acts 8:20; Romans 9:22-23; Philippians 1:28; Philippians 3:19; 1 Timothy 6:9; Hebrews 10:39; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:3; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Timothy 6:9; Romans 1:32; Romans 6:21; Romans 7:5; Romans 8:6; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:15; James 5:20; 1 John 5:16; Revelation 2:11; Revelation 20:6; Revelation 14; Revelation 21:8; 2 Corinthians 11:15; Philippians 3:19; 1 Peter 4:17; Galatians 6:8; 2 Peter 2:12; Matthew 3:12; Matthew 7:19; Matthew 13:40; John 15:6; Matthew 7:27; Matthew 13:48; Matthew 15:13; Luke 13:7; Luke 17:27; Luke 17:29; Luke 17:32; Matthew 21:41; Malachi 4:3

How do you reconcile that with, "everyone will be saved"? It just doesn't make sense to me. The Bible is extremely clear that there is an eternal punishment to sin. It couldn't be any clearer on that. If Universalism is true, if everyone will be saved, how can it be that the wicked will be punished with eternal fire, eternal punishment, eternal destruction, and eternal shame?

I'm open to the possibility, but you're going to have to do a ton of explaining for me to take Universalism seriously. I came to accept Annihilationism because it doesn't have any holes - there are no problems with it. It makes a ton more sense than ECT. Universalism however has TONS of issues. And I don't see any way of explaining them away.
 
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ClementofA

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I already have.



Where? I don't see it. Just a simple yes or no will do. Here is my question again:

Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism? Yes or no?

Is it a proof text against universalism? Yes or no?

If not, why did you post it & similar verses in other writings of Paul, none of which refute universalism either?

And bonus question #4: How do those verses refute universalism?

These should be easy enough to answer for one who is being open, honest, transparent, & willing to share his beliefs.

 
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ClementofA

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If I understand what he is arguing correctly, his view is perfectly in line with those verses.

The only thing those verses say is that bad people don't go to heaven. He is not arguing that bad people go to heaven. He is arguing that all bad people get turned into good people and then go to heaven. So verses talking about how bad people don't go to heaven do nothing to refute his position.

You have to find verses that say that bad people who die on earth can't be changed into good people later on.

Or, show that there is a complete absence of verses that talk about dead people changing from good to bad.

Well said.
 
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ClementofA

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What I see in the verses is that they all say that Salvation is for everyone - that Jesus died for the sins of all and that the whole world will be saved.

I don't think they mean that every last person will be saved.

Why?

The bible consistently talks about an eternal punishment for the wicked. It is called the second death. It is the lake of fire. It is the same eternal fire that destroyed Sodom. It is eternal in result. It will burn the wicked to ashes. The righteous will walk upon their ashes. The wicked will be destroyed.

Matthew 7:13; John 17:12; Acts 8:20; Romans 9:22-23; Philippians 1:28; Philippians 3:19; 1 Timothy 6:9; Hebrews 10:39; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:3; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Timothy 6:9; Romans 1:32; Romans 6:21; Romans 7:5; Romans 8:6; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:15; James 5:20; 1 John 5:16; Revelation 2:11; Revelation 20:6; Revelation 14; Revelation 21:8; 2 Corinthians 11:15; Philippians 3:19; 1 Peter 4:17; Galatians 6:8; 2 Peter 2:12; Matthew 3:12; Matthew 7:19; Matthew 13:40; John 15:6; Matthew 7:27; Matthew 13:48; Matthew 15:13; Luke 13:7; Luke 17:27; Luke 17:29; Luke 17:32; Matthew 21:41; Malachi 4:3

How do you reconcile that with, "everyone will be saved"? It just doesn't make sense to me. The Bible is extremely clear that there is an eternal punishment to sin. It couldn't be any clearer on that. If Universalism is true, if everyone will be saved, how can it be that the wicked will be punished with eternal fire, eternal punishment, eternal destruction, and eternal shame?

I'm open to the possibility, but you're going to have to do a ton of explaining for me to take Universalism seriously. I came to accept Annihilationism because it doesn't have any holes - there are no problems with it. It makes a ton more sense than ECT. Universalism however has TONS of issues. And I don't see any way of explaining them away.

I can certainly see how you prefer Annihilationism over ECT.

Regarding the verse list, i've probably given a Universalism take on most, if not all of those, plus others, in this thread:

Annihilation theory...verses answered

Concerning the translation "eternal" & the Greek word aionion behind it, much has been written & debated on these forums & elsewhere. The following might be considered a primer to the topic:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin

This online free book is probably the best i've seen as an introduction to the case universalists make for their position:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

It's quite easy reading. It covers some of the verses thought to support universalism & tries to explain why. I don't agree with everything said, but most of it.

The featured threads in my profile also cover a lot of material regarding various topics & scriptures related to final destiny.
 
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Der Alte

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Good point. There is nothing in the passages he quoted saying the unrighteous can't become righteous after death, just as they can before death. So none of the passages quoted were inharmonious with universalism. You agree?
Logical fallacy. Argument from silence. "If there are no verses which specifically say sinners can't become righteous after death that must mean they can.
All the passages of the Scriptures that universalists point to to support universalism prove there is after death salvation.
Show me one verse which specifically says there is after death salvation?
OTOH there is no verse saying people don't get a second chance or unlimited chances, that God's love expires like a carton of milk at the moment a sinner croaks, or that they can't be saved in the hereafter.
More of the same logical fallacy, argument from silence.
Many scriptures show God's punishments in this life are corrective & there's nothing in the Bible saying that He suddenly changes His ways in that regard postmortem.
Were the people of Noah's day "corrected" by the punishment God imposed i.e. destroyed all of them in a flood? Were the inhabitants of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain "corrected" when God destroyed them by fire? Were the inhabitants of all the canaanite cities God told the Israelites to go into and kill all the inhabitants men, women and children corrected by that punishment? Were 3000 who were killed when Moses came down from the mountain "corrected?"
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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I can certainly see how you prefer Annihilationism over ECT.

Regarding the verse list, i've probably given a Universalism take on most, if not all of those, plus others, in this thread:

Annihilation theory...verses answered

Concerning the translation "eternal" & the Greek word aionion behind it, much has been written & debated on these forums & elsewhere. The following might be considered a primer to the topic:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin

This online free book is probably the best i've seen as an introduction to the case universalists make for their position:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

It's quite easy reading. It covers some of the verses thought to support universalism & tries to explain why. I don't agree with everything said, but most of it.

The featured threads in my profile also cover a lot of material regarding various topics & scriptures related to final destiny.
So you're saying that the wicked will be destroyed, but they will be resurrected a second time and will then change into good people, right?

So essentially, you sort of hold the Annihilationist view, but add on the idea that they won't be annihilated forever, but will instead change from bad people to good people and will then be reconciled to God.

Am I understanding you correctly?
 
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ClementofA

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So you're saying that the wicked will be destroyed, but they will be resurrected a second time and will then change into good people, right?

That's one way some universalists might express it, depending on the context of the word "destroyed", their understanding of it (e.g. death, ruin) & what they believe re the state of the dead, etc. For example, here are some of my thoughts re Mt.7:13-14:

Matthew 7:13-14 does not refute the eventual salvation of all


So essentially, you sort of hold the Annihilationist view, but add on the idea that they won't be annihilated forever, but will instead change from bad people to good people and will then be reconciled to God.

Am I understanding you correctly?

Which Annihilationist view are you referring to? The one where people go into oblivion at
the moment of death? Or do you think they go to a place like Hades as in the story of the rich man & Lazarus (Lk.16:19-31).

This opinions sees 1 Cor.15:22-28 speaking of a time beyond the lake of fire when those "annihilated" (i.e. killed) by the second death are raised a second time to life:

As in Adam all die

I don't agree with everything there, & lean more to the view that those in the LOF will be conscious & tormented, even if their physical body has been destroyed/killed.
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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This is infuriating. I draft a reply to someone, decide not to post it, delete the message, refresh the page, then decide to reply to someone else, and when I hit the post button, the deleted draft from earlier has apparently been saved and gets posted at the top of the new message. I have tried, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to delete those drafts. They stay there until you delete it and post something else at the same time. And if you forget to delete them, they get posted.
That's one way some universalists might express it, depending on the context of the word "destroyed", their understanding of it (e.g. death, ruin) & what they believe re the state of the dead, etc. For example, here are some of my thoughts re Mt.7:13-14:

Matthew 7:13-14 does not refute the eventual salvation of all




Which Annihilationist view are you referring to? The one where people go into oblivion at
the moment of death? Or do you think they go to a place like Hades as in the story of the rich man & Lazarus (Lk.16:19-31).

This opinions sees 1 Cor.15:22-28 speaking of a time beyond the lake of fire when those "annihilated" (i.e. killed) by the second death are raised a second time to life:

As in Adam all die

I don't agree with everything there, & lean more to the view that those in the LOF will be conscious & tormented, even if their physical body has been destroyed/killed.
There are zero verses that talk about the punished wicked being resurrected/redeemed.

There are zero verses that talk about a purgatory of any sort.

There are zero verses that talk about after death salvation.

There are zero verses that talk about a second chance after death.

There are zero verses that talk about every last human being saved.


There are dozens of verses that talk about wicked people perishing and being destroyed.

There are several verses that talk about wicked people being dealt eternal, everlasting destruction.


If there was a verse that said, "The wicked will be destroyed, will be turned to ashes, will be consumed with eternal fire, will be held in everlasting contempt, and will cease to exist," a Universalist could still find a way to show how it doesn't necessarily mean they can't be redeemed.

Heck, if you wanted the Bible to say that Jesus actually never rose from the dead, I'm sure you could find a way to warp the bible to fit that narrative as well.

If you jump through enough hoops and warp enough passages, you can make the bible say anything you'd like it to say.

That is why we have to discern the most natural, reasonable interpretation of the texts, without adding to it things that we want it to say, but to instead let the words speak for themselves.

If the bible says, "The wages of sin is death," we should assume that it means the wicked shall perish and die. We should not warp the passage to say, "The wages of sin is eternal conscious torment," or "The wages of sin is death, but then redemption." We should conclude that the wages of sin is simply death. Now what is death? Almost always, death means destruction of life and loss of consciousness. Only rarely does it indicate anything different. So unless there is a very good reason to believe that the wages of sin is some special, unique kind of death that does not involve the loss of life and consciousness, we should assume that, "the righteous will perish, they will be destroyed, they will become the dust under our feet, and they will die," means that they will simply die.

So because the Bible literally says absolutely NOTHING about a redemption for the wicked after death on earth, and absolutely NOTHING about the human soul being inherently immortal, but instead simply says the wicked will die, we should assume that they will die. We should not make stuff up and hypothesize that they will actually not die but will instead live forever in torment, or that they will be punished, but will not be destroyed, but will instead be redeemed by loving and accepting God while in some magical fairy land called purgatory.
 
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ClementofA

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There are zero verses that talk about the punished wicked being resurrected/redeemed.

That depends on one's interpretation. For example, the article i linked to earlier:

C. S. Lewis, author of the book "The Problem of Pain"
(page 106) Chapter Eight entitled "Hell", says this:
I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully, "All will be saved."

(page 76) Chapter Five entitled "The Fall of Man" says this:
...and we have said nothing about the Pauline statement that "as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Jack (C. S. Lewis) did have the answer but did not see it.



WILL ALL WHO DIE IN ADAM
BE MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST?
Man was made for life, but death swallows up the race.
Is death always to be the abject, heartbreaking end of
life, or will death some day be vanquished and its vic-
tims freed? The right answer to this question reveals
a triumphant Saviour, strengthens faith in God, gives
true comfort, and inspires worship, thanksgiving and
joy. The right answer is God's answer. It is direct
and clear. Note it carefully.

AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;

2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.).

This is an unexplored portion of God's Word to many.
Its challenging statements should strengthen our deter-
mination to understand and believe the truth God has
revealed in it. Let us consider some of its outstanding
points:

As in Adam all die. Death is the heritage of all who
are related to Adam, none escape it. Even those who
believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour, succumb to the
sleep of death and are referred to as "the dead in
Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18); and as "the dead" that
"shall be raised incorruptible" (1 Cor. 15:51, 52).
The fact that "those who are Christ's" need to be "made
alive at His coming" shows that they too are included
in the ALL who die in Adam.

Satan's success in blinding men to the nature and
extent of death is the cause of much error. That this
would be a master stroke of deception is evidenced by
the fact that Satan's first lie was "You shall not surely
die" (Gen. 3:4). This deception is still believed by many
in spite of the fact that all die. Truth is sometimes
rejected because it is unpleasant. The apparent finality
of death appalls man. His aversion to death causes
him to welcome any philosophy that explains it away.
To reject the truth concerning death is to lose the com-
fort contained in God's way of dealing with it. Death
is indeed a grim and relentless enemy but there is One
Who is "the Resurrection and the Life" (John 11:25).
He has "the keys of death and of Hades" (Rev. 1:17,
18). He it is who will conquer death and set its victims
free. Hear the thrilling words:

So also in Christ shall all be made alive. Think of it
ALL who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ!
Made alive beyond the reach of death. Made alive unto
immortality as was Christ "the Firstfruit" when He
was raised from the dead (1 Tim. 6:16). Made alive
as "those who are Christ's" will be made alive at His
coming — the dead raised "incorruptible" and the living
"changed" from mortal to immortal (1 Cor. 15:51-55).
Marvel of marvels, "incorruptible" and "immortal" —
incapable of being corrupted and incapable of dying.
This is the "victory" that will "swallow up" all death
in due time. What rejoicing there will be then! What
glory to God and to His Son!

But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days after His death.

2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.

3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
kingdom.

It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. A
thoughtful reading of this passage will enable most be-
lievers to see clearly that the words "then cometh the
end" refer to this end order to be made alive. The sub-
ject the apostle is elucidating is: The order in which
all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-
24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who
are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only
a small part of the all who die in Adam. A third order
is necessary to make all alive. To refer the "end" to
anything else is to ignore the context and to introduce
something foreign to the subject. It cannot possibly
refer to an end of the kingdom, for though the kingdom
will be "delivered up" to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24), it
will never end (Luke 1:33).

Four statements in this passage indicate that the
words "then cometh the end" refer to the making alive
of an end order.

1. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made
alive. But each in his own order" (vs. 22. 23).

2. "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).
It is the making alive of ALL that will abolish death. As long
as any remain dead, death has not been abolished.

3. "When all things have been subjected unto the Son" (vs.
27, 28). The dead must ALL be made alive if all are to be sub-
jected unto the Son. The only exception in this subjection is
God the Father.

4. "That God may be All in all" (vs. 28). This requires that
all be made alive. As long as any remain dead God cannot be
ALL in ALL, for He is not the God of the dead (Luke 20:37, 38).

But the question arises, May not the making alive of
this end order refer to "the resurrection unto judg-
ment" at the time of the "Great White Throne" (John
5:29; Rev. 20:11-15)9 This cannot be the case for three
reasons :

1. In the resurrection unto judgment the dead are not made
alive unto immortality as is the case in the end order. Were
they raised "incorruptible" and "immortal" to be judged, they
could not afterward die the second death. God's Word makes
it clear that "if any are not found written in the book of life"
they will suffer the second death (Rev. 20:13-15).

2. The making alive of the end order will abolish death. The
resurrection unto judgment does not do this for it is followed
by the second death. As long as the second death exists, death
has not been abolished.

3. The making alive of this end order takes place long after
the resurrection unto judgment at the Great White Throne—
more than a whole age later. The end order is made alive,
"WHEN He shall deliver up the kingdom to God even the
Father." When does He do this? "WHEN He shall have
abolished ALL RULE and ALL AUTHORITY and POWER.
For He must reign TILL He hath put all His enemies under His
feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED IS DEATH"
(1 Cor. 15:24-26, R.V.).

The Son does not deliver up the kingdom to God the
Father until He has abolished all rule, authority, power,
and death. Since death is the last enemy to be abolished,
as long as rule, authority, and power remain, the end
order has not been made alive. With these facts in mind
let us glance at the outstanding events of the future
which bear on this subject.

AN OUTLINE OF FUTURE EVENTS
When Christ returns He will set up a kingdom upon
earth (Rev. 11:15; Dan. 2:44). Together with His
saints He will then reign for 1,000 years (Rev. 19:11-
20:6). When the 1,000 years are finished there will be
a Satan-led revolt which ends in disaster for the re-
volters (Rev. 20:7-10). This will be followed by the
resurrection unto judgment (Rev. 20:5, 6 and 11-15).
The present heavens and earth will then be dissolved
(2 Pet. 3:7-13). Then will come the New Heavens and
the New Earth upon which the New Jerusalem descends
(Rev. 21:1-22:5).

Will rule, authority, and power still be present on the
New Earth? If so, death has not yet been abolished.
Let us see: "The throne of God and of the Lamb shall
be therein" (Rev. 22:3). "And his servants shall serve
him" and "they shall reign for the ages of the ages"
(Rev. 22:3-5). "The Kings of the earth bring their
glory into the New Jerusalem" (Rev. 21:23, 24). Yes,
rule, authority, and power are still present on the New
Earth. The Lord Jesus is still reigning, the saints are
still reigning, and there are still kings on the earth. The
end order has not yet been made alive. Since there will
be no death on the New Earth (Rev. 21:1-4), the only
dead ones to be made alive in the end order are those
who have suffered the second death. When these have
been made alive, then indeed and in truth, death will
have been abolished.

The question arises, When will these who are made
alive in the end order come to believe in Jesus Christ
as their Saviour? Another question answers this one.
How can unbelievers experience the resurrecting power
of Jesus Christ in saving them out of the first death, be
brought into His presence at the Great White Throne,
and not believe? The Judge is none other than the
Saviour (Rom. 2:16). "All judgment has been given
unto the Son that all may honor the Son even as they
honor the Father" (John 5:22, 23).

But the objection arises, if they come to know Jesus
Christ as their Saviour then, why should they suffer the
second death? Again we would answer by asking another
question. Why do those wile believe during this life
suffer the first death? We should not forget that the
first death is the condemnation of God against sin (Rom.
5:12-19). Deliverance out of it for anyone is on the
basis of the saving work of Jesus Christ (John 1:29).
Unbelievers will be saved out of the first death in the
"resurrection unto judgment" (John 5:28, 29). They
will then be judged and dealt with according to their
deeds (Rom. 2:5, 6; Rev. 20:11-15) after which they will
suffer the second death. The second death is because of
the sins of the individual, and deliverance out of it will
be on the basis of the saving work of Jesus Christ (1
John 2:2; Rom. 5:18, 19; 1 Cor. 15:20-26).

The teaching of endless punishment slanders the
character of God and dishonors His Son. Failure to
distinguish between the elective salvation of the ages
(2 Tim. 2:10), and the general salvation beyond (1 Tim.
4 :9-11;2:3-6), has caused many to malign the God they
seek to glorify. This distinction is clearly revealed in
the types of the Old Testament. There was a redemption
for some prior to Jubilee, and a deliverance for all at
Jubilee (Lev. 25:1-55). There is to be a grand Jubilee
of Salvation. All are to receive "justification of life"
and "be made righteous" (Rom. 5:18, 19). Jesus Christ
is indeed a triumphant Saviour! "The pleasure of the
Lord shall prosper in His hand, He shall see of the
travail of His soul and shall be satisfied" (Isa. 53:10,
11). —Rev. JOSEPH E. KIRK

As in Adam all die
 
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and the general salvation beyond (1 Tim.
4 :9-11;2:3-6)
Why are there ZERO verses that talk about how people who receive eternal, everlasting, and unending punishment are redeemed? That doesn't make any sense. Shouldn't there be mention of a purgatory of some sort? Shouldn't there be mention of the wicked being redeemed? Shouldn't there be mention of how the punishment of the wicked will cease?

If you were God, how would you attempt to communicate the idea of eternal punishment with no end? If eternal, everlasting, and unending aren't good enough, what other words could you possibly use? "For like a gajillion years"? I mean seriously, how else could you possibly communicate the idea of eternal destruction? When God wrote the Bible, it's almost like He had a Thesaurus in hand to make sure he used every possible word that communicates the idea of eternal destruction.
 
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