Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

[Jordan Henshaw]

Before you know it there will be plenty in here attempting to do exactly that. You can bank on it. I'm only up to this post so far, and noticed there are already numerous posts being submitted in this thread. Maybe some of those posts are from ECT defenders. I don't know yet, but getting ready to find out as I continue to read on in this thread.

Only one taker so far...

Hello ECT supporters
I know you're out there!

 

[Der Alte]

You could have written a hundred page post, but if it isn't relevant to the thread, I'm not going to spend a lot of time dealing with it.
It seemed to me like the whole post was trying to disprove the notion that Gehenna is a trash dump.
Notice that you're the first one to mention Gehenna, the trash dump idea, and almost every idea you brought up in your whole post.
I don't see how it is relevant to what is being argued on this thread.

I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond to it. Documented in the Jewish Encyclopedia, which I quoted, many Jews believed in a place of eternal, unending fiery punishment for the unrighteous and they called it both Ge hinnom [valley of Hinnom] and sheol.

 

[Sanoy]

Your entire post but specifically the final sentence.

I guess then I am confused in regards to how your post is meant to rebut this verse in Revelation. I am also surprised to hear that my comment about death and hell being thrown into the lake of fire is often used. I have actually never seen it used even in official debates on this topic.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond to it. Documented in the Jewish Encyclopedia, which I quoted, many Jews believed in a place of eternal, unending fiery punishment for the unrighteous and they called it both Ge hinnom [valley of Hinnom] and sheol.

I still don't see the application that deals with my arguments above on post 1.

 

[Der Alte]

I think another clear indication that the lake of fire is a pit for the purpose of annihilating a thing is the fact that death and hell are thrown into it. So there is no longer death or hell because it has been destroyed.
I often wonder if Greek mythology isn't partially responsible for the view of ECT due to the translation of sheol into Hades.

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
.....We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
.....More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If vs. 4 is correct then those mentioned in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

 

[Sanoy]

.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

Were the horses also thrown into the lake of fire along with their riders? This is figurative language, which we find in Jeremiah as well. Death and hell is a thing, not an actual individual, that is why Christ has their keys. He has taken power over those things.

The only pronouncement of ECT is for those three, for all mortals it is specifically called the second death. So the terms are not synonymous and we can rightly infer that death means death.

 

[Lily of Valleys]

4. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Mathew 25:31-46

Eternal in result, not in cause. In other words, the death of a human being is eternal (at least if dead for a certain period of time). A dead human will never come back to life. The result of that death lasts forever and ever. But the person isn’t suffering eternal death. The process of death itself is not eternal. It is quick.

Likewise, God’s punishment for the wicked is eternal in result, or in consequence. But certainly not eternal in process, or in action.

Why is the first "eternal" interpreted differently than the second "eternal"? Why is the second "eternal" eternal in process while the first is eternal in result?

2. “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” - Daniel 12:1-2

This simply means that their name will forever be held in contempt; that they will never be redeemed. Such as how the people of Sodom are held in contempt even today. 4,000 years later, and most people seem to know that the Sodomites were bad people. Everlasting contempt. The Sodomites will never be redeemed.

Again, why is the first "everlasting" interpreted differently than the second "everlasting"?

6. “And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Revelation 20:10; 14-15

This is talking about the Beast, Devil, and False Prophet. Not humans.

False prophet is not human?

 

[hedrick]

Speculation, assumption and presupposition much?

I've actually read a fair amount about this, in lexicons, commentaries, and other sources. But these don't present a single, simple model. And in fact they imply that there wasn't one. That was the reason for my rather vague wording.

Some things do seem clear:
* Many people made a distinction between purgatorial suffering and long-term fate. Most commentators see "hades" as representing temporary and "Gehenna" permanent. That's why Lazarus and the Rich Man is a bad reference for supporting ECT, although it's often cited for that.
* In 1st Cent Judaism, eternal torment, annihilation for at least some people, and universalism (after purgatorial suffering) all were proposed.
* Various passages in the NT can be understood as pointing to each of these.

For those of us not committed to inerrancy, the obvious conclusion is that Christians didn't agree, just as Jews didn't.

 

[Hillsage]

You could have written a hundred page post, but if it isn't relevant to the thread, I'm not going to spend a lot of time dealing with it.

It seemed to me like the whole post was trying to disprove the notion that Gehenna is a trash dump.

Notice that you're the first one to mention Gehenna, the trash dump idea, and almost every idea you brought up in your whole post.

I don't see how it is relevant to what is being argued on this thread.

You're right about this. And it's been refuted before, to no avail. Who cares what 'the Jewish Encyclopedia' said? Its source, even as supported by the poster, goes back to the time of Jesus and before. Only problem is, how much before. Pharisees aren't even mentioned in the OT. Know why, because they too weren't before the 400 years when God was silent and the Jews came up with all kinds of 'dung' Jesus had to rebuke the Pharisees for. Sadducees didn't even believe in a resurrection!!!! So eternal hell probably wasn't on their list either.

What ever the metaphorical reasoning of Jesus was to speak of Gehenna, we may not know. One thing is for sure IMO. I'll bet no one here has plucked out an eye or cut off a hand to keep from sinning and ending up there.

I'll keep moving on to your post which I know I won't agree with now.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
.....We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
.....More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If vs. 4 is correct then those mentioned in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Ok. Now we're getting somewhere.

Revelation 20:10. The NIV reads, "where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown." If you want to attack from that verse, you will have to use the Greek.

“'the lake of fire' is 'the second death' and the “second death' is 'the lake of fire,' thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction." - I'm not quite seeing how this is so. If someone says that the "guillotine is death", I'm going to associate a guillotine with death and destruction. Granted, they aren't interchangeable per se, I can't say, "Guillotine/death is what happens when you die," but that is drastically irrelevant.

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." - This is so figurative and metaphorical that you can't base an entire theology off of it. Death isn't something that can be thrown anywhere. It seems as though some concept of death is put to an end, but does that really mean everyone is automatically immortal and can now survive being thrown into a lake of burning sulfur? That's a pretty far jump. Especially in light of those 34 verses explicitly stating otherwise.

"If vs. 4 is correct then those mentioned in vs. 8 do not die." - This is a reference to the past. This already happened in Revelation 20:15.

 

[Sanoy]

False prophet is not human?

None of us knows for sure but there are hints that he might not be human. For example in Matthew 25:41 we find that the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. And we find in Revelation that there are 3 that do not die whereas everyone else dies a second death and are sought in the book of life. There is also language in Revelation that directly suggests he is not human in that his deception is put in contrast with "those that dwell on the earth". He also performs exceptional miracles like giving breath to the image of the beast. God breathed life into Adam, and this false prophet is doing something very similar to the image of the beast.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

Why is the first "eternal" interpreted differently than the second "eternal"? Why is the second "eternal" eternal in process while the first is eternal in result?

Again, why is the first "everlasting" interpreted differently than the second "everlasting"?

False prophet is not human?

"eternal" and "everlasting" are references to time. The length of time for both consequences in both verses is the same.

The phrase "forever and ever" is used many times throughout the bible, and the only times it EVER means literally billions of billions of years+ is when in reference to God's nature. In all the other occurrences, it refers to a finite period of time.

And we have at least 34 verses above that specifically teach that immortality/eternal life is a gift given only to the righteous. God guarded Adam and Eve from the Tree of Life so that they wouldn't be cursed with eternal life. The Tree of Life is in the middle of heaven and will give us eternal life when we are in heaven. The bible states repeatedly throughout scripture that the wicked shall DIE, be DESTROYED and BURNED UP. Our example of what will happen to the unrighteous is Sodom, which was burned with eternal fire, but is no longer burning. Mathew 10:28 states that the body and soul can be destroyed in hell. The bible repeatedly states that the wages of sin is DEATH - NOT eternal life of conscious torment - while the gift of God is eternal life. If the wages of sin was eternal conscious torment, then Jesus's sacrifice of simply death must be meaningless and utterly useless to save us from God's apparent eternal wrath.

If an ECT supporter can swallow all that, I'll reconsider my position.

 

[Hillsage]

"neither did Jesus have to be eternally annihilated to pay the price for sin."

- Um... no. The wages of sin is death. That's the price that Jesus paid. Yes, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, but that is just one verse talking about the unrighteous humans specifically. There are plenty of verses that deal specifically with the punishment for sin itself and it is always death.

I agree.

"Had Jesus not done this, his immortal body could have bled out and he'd still be alive on that cross."

- I'm not sure what verse you're basing this conclusion based off of, but it is insignificant, as we both agree the price he paid was simply death.

You're right, one verse can't be found. I believe the truth must be a little deeper than a verse.

KJV 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit:

Not "quickened by blood left on Calvary"???

Luke 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."

Neither does a resurrected 'spiritual body' or 'glorified body' have need of blood. I think this verse would have just said 'flesh and blood' as is more common, even in scripture. In this particular case "Flesh and bones" is in scripture once only. Admittedly a bit of a supposition on my part. But since it was John who wrote GOD IS SPIRIT, long after Jesus was in heaven, I'm going to also suppose that the SPIRIT body of Jesus didn't need blood for life.

"But no scripture supports that man's spirit, which was made in the image of God can die. For all spirits are eternal."

- OK. I have just shown you 34 verses that tell us that eternal life/immortality is a gift given only to the unrighteous. If you can find just one verse that tells us that the "spirit" of every man is eternal, I will reconsider my position.

I believe all your verses pertain to that which is capable of 'being mortal'. That being 'the body/flesh' or 'the soul'. Or both.

MAT 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Only thing missing here is 'the spirit' made in the image of the eternal God.

"JAM 1:15 'Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.'"

- This is figurative language. "Desire" can't be given birth to. This is symbolism. What does this have to do with anything, anyway?

Good, you're asking questions. It has to do with everyone thinking that Adam and Eve died 'in the instant of one 24 hour day' after biting the apple. But if it was their spirit that died, their body would have dropped like a rock also because

JAM 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead,...

"Truth has nothing to do with the conclusion if the methodology falls short."

- Sure. It's just a common practice in debating and really just writing in general to sum up the whole post/essay/speech in a conclusion paragraph at the end.

But isn't the conclusion supposed to be based upon the content of the post/essay/speech? And in this case is not this conclusion/truth supposed to just be arriving at condensed description of all that was previously 'debate' to support that final truth?

I don't know if you know or not, because I haven't read you before. But if you click on the + icon in the upper right and then pick 'quote' from the drop-down, it will put whatever you've previously highlighted into a quotation box. It's easier to read a rebuttal post if all the other poster's comments are in quotation boxes before you address them. Maybe you already know this, and just feel like you're saving time or something. Just saying.

PS, are you a trichotomist (man is spirit, soul, body) or a dichotomist (body, soul)? Might be a factor for us.

 

[Der Alte]

Were the horses also thrown into the lake of fire along with their riders? This is figurative language, which we find in Jeremiah as well. Death and hell is a thing, not an actual individual, that is why Christ has their keys. He has taken power over those things.
The only pronouncement of ECT is for those three, for all mortals it is specifically called the second death. So the terms are not synonymous and we can rightly infer that death means death.

I call this the SPAM-Fig argument. When scripture as written contradicts someone's dearly held beliefs simply dismiss them as symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor or figurative anything but literal.
.....I explained how "death and "hell" were actually individuals.Your SPAM-fig argument does not disprove my explanation. My approach is this "If the plain sense makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense."
.....Where does Rev 20:14 say anything about "horses?"

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.​

“'the lake of fire' is 'the second death' and the “second death' is 'the lake of fire,' thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction." - I'm not quite seeing how this is so. If someone says that the "guillotine is death", I'm going to associate a guillotine with death and destruction. Granted, they aren't interchangeable per se, I can't say, "Guillotine/death is what happens when you die," but that is drastically irrelevant.

Anyone can concoct an example from life which appears to refute an argument. What you may/may not say in any given situation proves absolutely nothing about the scripture in question. Read the verses I quoted again and my explication. The LOF is not synonymous with death because not everyone/everything thrown into the LOF dies. The living beings the devil, the beast and the false prophet are thrown in to the LOF. They did not suffer a first death so they can't die a second death, they are tormented day and night forever.

]"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." - This is so figurative and metaphorical that you can't base an entire theology off of it. Death isn't something that can be thrown anywhere. It seems as though some concept of death is put to an end, but does that really mean everyone is automatically immortal and can now survive being thrown into a lake of burning sulfur? That's a pretty far jump. Especially in light of those 34 verses explicitly stating otherwise.

I already explained how 'death" and "hell" could be literally thrown into the LOF. Your assumptions have not proved me wrong.

]"If vs. 4 is correct then those mentioned in vs. 8 do not die." - This is a reference to the past. This already happened in Revelation 20:15.

The grammatical structure of Rev 21:3-8 will not logically, grammatically or any other way permit any of the verses to be yanked out of their immediate context and placed in some earlier passage. Note these vss. are one continuous narrative. See the conjunctions "and" and "but.'

Revelation 21:3-8
(3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
​

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

I agree.


You're right, one verse can't be found. I believe the truth must be a little deeper than a verse.

KJV 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit:

Not "quickened by blood left on Calvary"???

Luke 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."

Neither does a resurrected 'spiritual body' or 'glorified body' have need of blood. I think this verse would have just said 'flesh and blood' as is more common, even in scripture. In this particular case "Flesh and bones" is in scripture once only. Admittedly a bit of a supposition on my part. But since it was John who wrote GOD IS SPIRIT, long after Jesus was in heaven, I'm going to also suppose that the SPIRIT body of Jesus didn't need blood for life.


I believe all your verses pertain to that which is capable of 'being mortal'. That being 'the body/flesh' or 'the soul'. Or both.

MAT 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Only thing missing here is 'the spirit' made in the image of the eternal God.


Good, you're asking questions. It has to do with everyone thinking that Adam and Eve died 'in the instant of one 24 hour day' after biting the apple. But if it was their spirit that died, their body would have dropped like a rock also because

JAM 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead,...




But isn't the conclusion supposed to be based upon the content of the post/essay/speech? And in this case is not this conclusion/truth supposed to just be arriving at condensed description of all that was previously 'debate' to support that final truth?

I don't know if you know or not, because I haven't read you before. But if you click on the + icon in the upper right and then pick 'quote' from the drop-down, it will put whatever you've previously highlighted into a quotation box. It's easier to read a rebuttal post if all the other poster's comments are in quotation boxes before you address them. Maybe you already know this, and just feel like you're saving time or something. Just saying.

PS, are you a trichotomist (man is spirit, soul, body) or a dichotomist (body, soul)? Might be a factor for us.

A quick word on Luke 24:39, for what it's worth: the word there is the word for ghost. The disciples thought he was a ghost/ghoul/floating white sheet at Halloween kind of thing. Because they just saw him die and be buried in a sealed tomb. Jesus is showing them that he isn't a ghost by eating with them and showing how he has bones, unlike ghosts.

"Only thing missing here is 'the spirit' made in the image of the eternal God." - So you think that man has a body, soul, and spirit? And while the body and soul get destroyed, the spirit stays alive somehow? And this spirit somehow magically has eternal life, which gives it the ability to somehow magically be tormented in a lake of burning sulfur for all eternity?

Me, "But wait a second, God, you said that our bodies and souls would be put to an end in the lake of fire!" God, "Oops, I forgot to add that your spirit stays alive! Sorry."

Spirit in Hell after a trillion years of fiery torment, "Wow, this is just plain boring. I don't have a body to feel all this burning sulfur with, so that was a waste. I don't even have a soul. What am I? I have no idea. I don't have a soul, body, or anything. I'm just a random spirit that despite having a body and soul is somehow magically still alive, is somehow magically located in a geographical location, and is somehow magically able to think these thoughts, despite not having a soul or brain. Huh. I'm really confused. But how can I be confused? Ugh. I give up."

 

[Der Alte]

...The phrase "forever and ever" is used many times throughout the bible, and the only times it E VER means literally billions of billions of years+ is when in reference to God's nature. In all the other occurrences, it refers to a finite period of time....

Prove it? Otherwise this is just an unsupported assertion.
In the following twenty two verses αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described by other words and phrases as eternal, everlasting etc.: 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 20:1, Romans 26:10.

In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but they are never defined/described as meaning a period of time less than eternal as in the following verses.
[1]1 Timothy 1:17.

(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[2]2 Corinthians 4:17-18

(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. See Robertson below. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” If an “aionios” house is at some time destroyed then it is no different than the earthly house. The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.” If the tabernacle in heaven is destroyed, it is no different than the earthly tabernacle.

[4]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has a permanent [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[5]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God.
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “incorruptible.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[6]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting[αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[7]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. not “corruption.” “Age(s) is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting.”

[8]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[9]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s)” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[10]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[11]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “little while.” Thus by definition “aionios” here means “eternal.”

[12]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternal.”

[13]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “without end.” “aionios” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionios” by definition here means eternal.

[14]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionas] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[15]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

In this verse “aionion” is paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand.” If “aionion” is only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” by definition here means eternal.

[16]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life. ​

In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.

[17]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.​

In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.

[18]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal.”

[19]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with death. “A finite period” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios” by definition here means ‘eternal.”

[20]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations."

[21]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[22]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.

 

[Der Alte]

...
"Only thing missing here is 'the spirit' made in the image of the eternal God." - So you think that man has a body, soul, and spirit? And while the body and soul get destroyed, the spirit stays alive somehow? And this spirit somehow magically has eternal life, which gives it the ability to somehow magically be tormented in a lake of burning sulfur for all eternity?

If God wants something to happen, it will happen whether we understand it or not.

Me, "But wait a second, God, you said that our bodies and souls would be put to an end in the lake of fire!" God, "Oops, I forgot to add that your spirit stays alive! Sorry."

Where does God say this?

Spirit in Hell after a trillion years of fiery torment, "Wow, this is just plain boring. I don't have a body to feel all this burning sulfur with, so that was a waste. I don't even have a soul. What am I? I have no idea. I don't have a soul, body, or anything. I'm just a random spirit that despite having a body and soul is somehow magically still alive, is somehow magically located in a geographical location, and is somehow magically able to think these thoughts, despite not having a soul or brain. Huh. I'm really confused. But how can I be confused? Ugh. I give up."

Still assuming that God can't do something.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

I call this the SPAM-Fig argument. When scripture as written contradicts someone's dearly held beliefs simply dismiss them as symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor or figurative anything but literal.
.....I explained how "death and "hell" were actually individuals.Your SPAM-fig argument does not disprove my explanation. My approach is this "If the plain sense makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense."
.....Where does Rev 20:14 say anything about "horses?"

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.​

Anyone can concoct an example from life which appears to refute an argument. What you may/may not say in any given situation proves absolutely nothing about the scripture in question. Read the verses I quoted again and my explication. The LOF is not synonymous with death because not everyone/everything thrown into the LOF dies. The living beings the devil, the beast and the false prophet are thrown in to the LOF. They did not suffer a first death so they can't die a second death, they are tormented day and night forever.

I already explained how 'death" and "hell" could be literally thrown into the LOF. Your assumptions have not proved me wrong.

The grammatical structure of Rev 21:3-8 will not logically, grammatically or any other way permit any of the verses to be yanked out of their immediate context and placed in some earlier passage. Note these vss. are one continuous narrative. See the conjunctions "and" and "but.'

Revelation 21:3-8
(3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
​

"If the plain sense makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense." - Well after reading John 3:16, it seems to make a TON of sense to conclude that those not saved will perish, and that that gift of God is eternal life - "plain sense".

"When scripture as written contradicts someone's dearly held beliefs simply dismiss them as symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor or figurative anything but literal." - Do you think that Jesus thought his followers were literally grains of NaCl (salt) when he said, "You are the salt of the earth"? Because by your rule, he must have...

"They did not suffer a first death so they can't die a second death" - But they can die a first death. And who ever said that they didn't die a first death?

And the forever and ever bit when used in the bible usually means a finite period of time, rather than an infinite period of time. The only instance where it means billions of billions of years+ is when dealing with the nature of God specifically.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

Where does God say this?

EXACTLY.

 

[Hillsage]

A quick word on Luke 24:39, for what it's worth: the word there is the word for ghost. The disciples thought he was a ghost/ghoul/floating white sheet at Halloween kind of thing. Because they just saw him die and be buried in a sealed tomb. Jesus is showing them that he isn't a ghost by eating with them and showing how he has bones, unlike ghosts.

A quick word but also just as quick an error IMO. Pneuma is the 4151 Greek word in KJV as Spirit 257x and as Ghost 92x. A spirit is a spirit and the Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit, end of theology lesson IMO. If you think you can shoot Casper the ghost/spirit and kill him or any spirit, I disagree.

"Only thing missing here is 'the spirit' made in the image of the eternal God." - So you think that man has a body, soul, and spirit? And while the body and soul get destroyed, the spirit stays alive somehow? And this spirit somehow magically has eternal life, which gives it the ability to somehow magically be tormented in a lake of burning sulfur for all eternity?

Actually no, I believe man IS A SPIRIT like GOD having a physical experience here on earth. You on the other hand see man as yourself, a sinful flesh body trying to have a spiritual experience. I am a spirit, I have a soul and I live in a body. Or as Paul said "this earthly tent we live in". IOW I'm just quoting the bible and spirit isn't accidentally left out of the verse in Matt 10 IMO. And if you quote better bibles your beloved eternity is missing also. And if you do a historical study on sulfur/brimstone you'll find it was always used as a purgative and a preservative, certainly not to torture/torment. And you also need to do a study on the word 'torment'.

Me, "But wait a second, God, you said that our bodies and souls would be put to an end in the lake of fire!" God, "Oops, I forgot to add that your spirit stays alive! Sorry."

No I didn't say that. Your body died in the grave, REMEMBER your earlier post??? Price for sin death. Can't come to life as a new glorified body til long after dust and ashes for most of God's creation. THEN when 'death and hell' have finished their useful purpose for God even they too will end up in God who is the lake of fire.

"Our God is a consuming fire." You want Him to be a gas or propane torch holder like some cosmic Hitler torturing to death in annihilation. I see Him as glorious and purgative in his work to kill us all. You do know you have two spirit trying to kill you don't you? One is the Holy Spirit with self crucifixion, and the other is the unholy spirit killing you with sin crucifixion. Paul learned to "crucify his flesh" and 'die to self" with the Holy Spirit. But he still hadn't made perfection according to Phillipians 3:12.

PHI 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Paul knew the difference between immortality and eternal life I wonder if you do. He knew the difference between the two different Greek words for resurrection in the verse above, do you?

ROM 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Spirit in Hell after a trillion years of fiery torment, "Wow, this is just plain boring. I don't have a body to feel all this burning sulfur with, so that was a waste.

Then you're as misinformed as the spirit Jesus was talking with....huh?

Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, TORMENT me not.

I don't even have a soul. What am I? I have no idea. I don't have a soul, body, or anything. I'm just a random spirit that despite having a body and soul is somehow magically still alive, is somehow magically located in a geographical location, and is somehow magically able to think these thoughts, despite not having a soul or brain. Huh. I'm really confused. But how can I be confused? Ugh. I give up."

But you 'giving up' sounds like you still think you won, FYI I still don't. But I do agree it's time to start studying more, and for us to stop.

BTW if you haven't figured it out, I'm not an ECT guy. But I do believe I 'one up' your kinder annihilationist POV with a better plan. One where God is winning ALL and not the Devil winning MOST. Now that is GOSPEL good news.