Catholics or Orthodox: How do we know which church is "better"? (No protestants, please)

Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I was just saying that i believe that in the eyes of God, the arguments or should i say differences would be petty in the eyes of God. God is probably more interested in other things than differences between two founding churches.
I think what is really at stake in the divide between Orthodox Church doctrine and Roman doctrine is how the differences effect us/people. What is good for us is to be understood as being more pleasing to God, and what is bad for us is not pleasing to God.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: ArmyMatt
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
It may be historically understandable, but having two different answers on one matter is not the same thing as giving one answer.
Rome has given several conflicting answers over the centuries, even contradicting her own dogmatic decrees. There is a facade of unity that is presented by Rome, because of a strong centralization around the concept of papal supremacy/infallibility. But the false unity of ecumenism (doctrinal pluralism) also offers a facade of unity, because of a strong centralization around the concept that unity is of greater value than true doctrine. Both "concepts" are false, however, and so must be rejected because the Truth is infinitely Good compared to either of these erroneous concepts. Many Protestants are united around a false concept of their own, called "sola Scriptura". It's the greatest thing that any of them share in common, and the one thing that hopelessly divides them though giving them a false sense of unity based upon their highest regard for the Bible.

Orthodox Christians are those who are truly tired and fed up with all such false concepts, and so they rest by seeking the Truth/Love of God in repentance and prayer, according to the most ancient and pure of Holy Tradition.

It is the hardest thing to be truly Orthodox, so it is not the "better" Church in terms of life in this world. But probably better in regards to the Kingdom which is coming, both now and forever.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: “Paisios”
Upvote 0

anna ~ grace

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 9, 2010
9,071
11,925
✟108,146.93
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Rome has given several conflicting answers over the centuries, even contradicting her own dogmatic decrees. There is a facade of unity that is presented by Rome, because of a strong centralization around the concept of papal supremacy/infallibility. But the false unity of ecumenism (doctrinal pluralism) also offers a facade of unity, because of a strong centralization around the concept that unity is of greater value than true doctrine. Both "concepts" are false, however, and so must be rejected because the Truth is infinitely Good compared to either of these erroneous concepts. Many Protestants are united around a false concept of their own, called "sola Scriptura". It's the greatest thing that any of them share in common, and the one thing that hopelessly divides them though giving them a false sense of unity based upon their highest regard for the Bible.

Orthodox Christians are those who are truly tired and fed up with all such false concepts, and so they rest by seeking the Truth/Love of God in repentance and prayer, according to the most ancient and pure of Holy Tradition.

It is the hardest thing to be truly Orthodox, so it is not the "better" Church in terms of life in this world. But probably better in regards to the Kingdom which is coming, both now and forever.
Yet Orthodoxy itself is diverse, and honestly, what some describe as illusion is at least in the person of a single man. An imperfect one and some Popes have been terrible, but a single authority nonetheless. That is something one notices.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Yet Orthodoxy itself is diverse, and honestly, what some describe as illusion is at least in the person of a single man. An imperfect one and some Popes have been terrible, but a single authority nonetheless. That is something one notices.
I'd rather that single man be the True God-Man, Christ, whose presence in His Church is by the Power of the Holy Spirit, and not said falsely to reside in an office held by any bishop. If God makes the Church infallible by His Holy Spirit, then the whole Church is infallible. If the office of one bishop is infallible, then the infallibility of the Church is forfeited.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Yet Orthodoxy itself is diverse, and honestly, what some describe as illusion is at least in the person of a single man. An imperfect one and some Popes have been terrible, but a single authority nonetheless. That is something one notices.
Also, the Church is supposed to be diverse in various ways. That is why a universal bishop was never necessary.
 
Upvote 0

anna ~ grace

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 9, 2010
9,071
11,925
✟108,146.93
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'd rather that single man be the True God-Man, Christ, whose presence in His Church is by the Power of the Holy Spirit, and not said falsely to reside in an office held by any bishop. If God makes the Church infallible by His Holy Spirit, then the whole Church is infallible. If the office of one bishop is infallible, then the infallibility of the Church is forfeited.
Yet infallibility lies not in a man's error, sins, or personality but in the Church, overseen by one office. And headed by Christ.
 
Upvote 0

anna ~ grace

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 9, 2010
9,071
11,925
✟108,146.93
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Also, the Church is supposed to be diverse in various ways. That is why a universal bishop was never necessary.
In some ways diverse, but in Her responses to inquiries on Truth, She should be singular. Are there heretical Catholic leaders? Definitely. Have there been terrible Popes? Yes. But as Christ was the visible Head while on a Earth, a visible head after His Ascension makes sense, too.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,562
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,466,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
In some ways diverse, but in Her responses to inquiries on Truth, She should be singular. Are there heretical Catholic leaders? Definitely. Have there been terrible Popes? Yes. But as Christ was the visible Head while on a Earth, a visible head after His Ascension makes sense, too.

the problem is Rome is not singular on Truth. Rome isn't historically consistent with a lot of her dogma.

and needing a visible head on earth supposes He is away or dead, and He is neither. and Rome had a headship before she left the Church.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,562
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,466,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
And though Orthodox responses to this topic differ, in Scripture I do understand that Peter was that head, and that if you go beyond the New Testament, successors to Peter being the continuation of that office makes sense to me.

Peter had successors in Antioch before he made it to Rome, so what about them?
 
Upvote 0

Yarddog

Senior Contributor
Site Supporter
Jun 25, 2008
15,284
3,556
Louisville, Ky
✟821,456.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I've got a book I'm about halfway through on Catholicism, and another book a friendly Orthodox brother sent me on Orthodoxy. Until I get through both of these, I won't be able to talk intelligently about how one church is "better" than the other.
So, until I get my reading done, I want to open this up to anyone who's already knowlegeable about both relgions, who can share their insight as to which one is actually the mystical "One True Church".
From reading the Early Church Fathers it is clear that disagreements have always been present in the One True Church. Even though these were present it is obvious that unity was more important than right.

For me, the One True Church is the total amount of believers that God has given his Holy Spirit to. There isn't but One Holy Spirit and that Spirit makes us One, even if people can not understand that.

Go's bless
 
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,683
8,019
PA
Visit site
✟1,022,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
And though Orthodox responses to this topic differ, in Scripture I do understand that Peter was that head, and that if you go beyond the New Testament, successors to Peter being the continuation of that office makes sense to me.
The Council of Jerusalem is the perfect example of how the Church was led, and shows the role of St Peter and the other leaders of the Church.
 
Upvote 0

anna ~ grace

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 9, 2010
9,071
11,925
✟108,146.93
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Council of Jerusalem is the perfect example of how the Church was led, and shows the role of St Peter and the other leaders of the Church.
Yes and no. From an Orthodox point of view, this downplays the role of Peter. Yet from a Catholic point of view, this was simply the first Church council, whose head was Peter. Indeed, everyone had a voice, but a Catholic would respond that as it was Peter on whom the Church was built, Peter still had the seat of authority. Again, our perspectives on this would differ.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,562
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,466,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
From reading the Early Church Fathers it is clear that disagreements have always been present in the One True Church. Even though these were present it is obvious that unity was more important than right.

For me, the One True Church is the total amount of believers that God has given his Holy Spirit to. There isn't but One Holy Spirit and that Spirit makes us One, even if people can not understand that.

Go's bless

sure, but when it came to theology they always sought to be one and not contradict. the only reason there are struggles is because folks deviate from what was given.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,562
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,466,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Still bishops, of course, but not the Papacy.

so where does it say Rome specific? and by the by, the first bishop to be called Pope was the bishop of Alexandria, centuries before Rome had that title.
 
Upvote 0

anna ~ grace

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 9, 2010
9,071
11,925
✟108,146.93
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
so where does it say Rome specific? and by the by, the first bishop to be called Pope was the bishop of Alexandria, centuries before Rome had that title.
Oriental Orthodoxy in Egypt still uses the term. Yet Mark preached in Egypt, Sir. And we know it is Rome as Tradition describes this. If you look up a list of successors to the See of Antioch it will look different from list of successors to the See of Rome.

The East is Holy. Yet the West holds my home. And is Holy, too.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,562
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,466,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Oriental Orthodoxy in Egypt still uses the term. Yet Mark preached in Egypt, Sir. And we know it is Rome as Tradition describes this. If you look up a list of successors to the See of Antioch it will look different from list of successors to the See of Rome.

The East is Holy. Yet the West holds my home. And is Holy, too.

the point was that Antioch traced directly back to St Peter, as he was their first bishop. Alexandria was called Pope long before Rome. our bishop of Alexandria is also called the Pope.

so again, since you didn't answer my question, where is Rome singled out specifically as being the successors of St Peter in a way that Antioch is not?
 
Upvote 0