LDS Were these people excommunicated?

[Daniel Marsh]

Just because one believes in the Trinity does not equal hate. lol

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Christ and accepting Him. Salvation is His gift.

Hence why I keep focusing on Him and accepting Him. The talk about different kingdoms or JS... frankly that's not what saves and I find it to have much less relevance. But seemingly it's what people want to talk about instead of Christ. I find it very frustrating.

LDS - Jane Doe, Let's talk about Jesus

That deserves a thread in and of itself.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Frustrating indeed when again--Jesus is not really the ultimate focus, but, what is the interpretation of the whole of the bible according to JS, and it is frustrating to hear, Jesus---when the truth is JS. Jesus deals with, truth not just words, but the heart. JS does not save Jesus does, but not the Jesus of the mind of JS, but the Jesus of the bible. Not the God of the BOM, but the God the the Bible. The bible is the word of God, but the LDS hold the writings of JS on the same level as the bible and in fact it is above it, for if there is any question about anything in it, it is the writings of JS that take precedence. The words that the LDS say and the actual believes are not the same thing and that is very frustrating. It is not the same Gospel, it is not the same Jesus, it is not the same God the Father, it is not the same Holy Spirit, it is not the same salvation, it is not the same reward. It is very simple to say, Jesus is the way---but when it actually means JS is the way---there isn't going to be a clear understanding of Jesus. If a lie is not faced, and seen for what it is, it can only be believed.

LDS - Jane Doe, Let's talk about Jesus

 

[Daniel Marsh]

It is frustrating when you're trying to talk about the most important thing in your life- the vary core of who you are, and having another person refuse to talk about it and totally ignore you in favor of something else.

I started a thread on that here LDS - Jane Doe, Let's talk about Jesus

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Mormons are taught:

“Secondly, we really aren’t obligated to answer everyone’s questions. I’ve not had all my questions answered. The Lord hasn’t chosen to do that. He probably hasn’t answered all of yours. And nor are we obligated to answer everyone else’s questions...

"The principle I would like to get across to you is this: We learn to answer the right question. Answer the right question."
Robert Millet, former Dean of Religious Education, speaking to the Mission Prep Club at BYU.

IOW, if the Mormon doesn't like the question, ignore it and change the subject!

In context, he was speaking to LDS Missionaries to avoid questions they do not have answers for.

Thank You for pointing out that tactic,
Daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

And I want to talk abut Christ. This is not a LDS-specific topic of interest.

You want to talk about salvation and who it pertains to? That cannot be done without talking about Christ.

I don't want to talk about JS. I want to talk about Christ. It's not about JS.

I started a thread on that here LDS - Jane Doe, Let's talk about Jesus

 

[Daniel Marsh]

(Editted to more polite)

It honestly seems like people on ChristianForums are not interested in talking about Christ. I don't feel like Christ is a LDS-only topic of interest that I need to shun ChristianForums and just hang out on LDS boards. This... it causes me frustration.

I started a thread on that here LDS - Jane Doe, Let's talk about Jesus

 

[Daniel Marsh]

But seemingly very few people on here want to talk about Christ. They'd rather talk about subjects of way lesser importance.

I started a thread on that here LDS - Jane Doe, Let's talk about Jesus

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I know how you feel. However, this is a forum for debating about different religious topics. Now, I can talk to my SDA friends about Jesus all I want--we are on the same wave length. On here, I expect, and have frequently, had to state my views as an SDA about a great many topics not just what I want to talk about, but what others are asking about, and talking about. That is what this place is for.

I started a thread on that here LDS - Jane Doe, Let's talk about Jesus

 

[Jane_Doe]

If they have the same hate in their hearts yes.

A good example was those that followed Malcolm X, during his hate period. It was not uncommon for his followers to gang up on a white person and beat them.

1 John 3:15 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Again I suggest, you read the short book of First John in the Bible.

Note: individual sin, one needs only to ask, see I John 1:8-10

Ok. So Martian Luther hated Jews. You therefore believe that he was not of Christ, as are all people who follow him (aka Protestants)?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Ok. So Martian Luther hated Jews. You therefore believe that he was not of Christ, as are all people who follow him (aka Protestants)?

Not all protestants agree with his hate of Jewish People,
http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-39/was-luther-anti-semitic.html

 

[Jane_Doe]

Not all protestants agree with his hate of Jewish People,
Was Luther Anti-Semitic?

Obviously not all Protestants agree with his hate.

But again, I'm trying to understand your beliefs here: do you believe that Luther was not of Christ (due to his hatred of Jews) and no Protestants are of Christ either?

(I'm asking you the questions of your beliefs. Old threads can't answer those questions for me).

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Obviously not all Protestants agree with his hate.

But again, I'm trying to understand your beliefs here: do you believe that Luther was not of Christ (due to his hatred of Jews) and no Protestants are of Christ either?

(I'm asking you the questions of your beliefs. Old threads can't answer those questions for me).

It is each individual. Since BOM has JS hate in it, his revelations are of his own mind, not from God. I seriously doubt God will give revelations to a person walking in darkness.

Read First John, it is only a few short chapters.

1 John 1-5 Good News Translation (GNT)
The Word of Life
1 We write to you about the Word of life, which has existed from the very beginning. We have heard it, and we have seen it with our eyes; yes, we have seen it, and our hands have touched it. 2 When this life became visible, we saw it; so we speak of it and tell you about the eternal life which was with the Father and was made known to us. 3 What we have seen and heard we announce to you also, so that you will join with us in the fellowship that we have with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 We write this in order that our[a] joy may be complete.

God Is Light
5 Now the message that we have heard from his Son and announce is this: God is light, and there is no darkness at all in him. 6 If, then, we say that we have fellowship with him, yet at the same time live in the darkness, we are lying both in our words and in our actions. 7 But if we live in the light—just as he is in the light—then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from every sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us. 9 But if we confess our sins to God, he will keep his promise and do what is right: he will forgive us our sins and purify us from all our wrongdoing. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make a liar out of God, and his word is not in us.

Christ Our Helper
2 I am writing this to you, my children, so that you will not sin; but if anyone does sin, we have someone who pleads with the Father on our behalf—Jesus Christ, the righteous one. 2 And Christ himself is the means by which our sins are forgiven, and not our sins only, but also the sins of everyone.

3 If we obey God's commands, then we are sure that we know him. 4 If we say that we know him, but do not obey his commands, we are liars and there is no truth in us. 5 But if we obey his word, we are the ones whose love for God has really been made perfect. This is how we can be sure that we are in union with God: 6 if we say that we remain in union with God, we should live just as Jesus Christ did.

The New Command
7 My dear friends, this command I am writing you is not new; it is the old command, the one you have had from the very beginning. The old command is the message you have already heard. 8 However, the command I now write you is new, because its truth is seen in Christ and also in you. For the darkness is passing away, and the real light is already shining.

9 If we say that we are in the light, yet hate others, we are in the darkness to this very hour. 10 If we love others, we live in the light, and so there is nothing in us that will cause someone else to sin. 11 But if we hate others, we are in the darkness; we walk in it and do not know where we are going, because the darkness has made us blind.

12 I write to you, my children, because your sins are forgiven for the sake of Christ. 13 I write to you, fathers, because you know him who has existed from the beginning. I write to you, young people, because you have defeated the Evil One.

14 I write to you, my children, because you know the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you know him who has existed from the beginning. I write to you, young people, because you are strong; the word of God lives in you, and you have defeated the Evil One.

15 Do not love the world or anything that belongs to the world. If you love the world, you do not love the Father. 16 Everything that belongs to the world—what the sinful self desires, what people see and want, and everything in this world that people are so proud of—none of this comes from the Father; it all comes from the world. 17 The world and everything in it that people desire is passing away; but those who do the will of God live forever.

The Enemy of Christ
18 My children, the end is near! You were told that the Enemy of Christ would come; and now many enemies of Christ have already appeared, and so we know that the end is near. 19 These people really did not belong to our fellowship, and that is why they left us; if they had belonged to our fellowship, they would have stayed with us. But they left so that it might be clear that none of them really belonged to us.

20 But you have had the Holy Spirit poured out on you by Christ, and so all of you know the truth. 21 I write you, then, not because you do not know the truth; instead, it is because you do know it, and you also know that no lie ever comes from the truth.

22 Who, then, is the liar? It is those who say that Jesus is not the Messiah. Such people are the Enemy of Christ—they reject both the Father and the Son. 23 For those who reject the Son reject also the Father; those who accept the Son have the Father also.

24 Be sure, then, to keep in your hearts the message you heard from the beginning. If you keep that message, then you will always live in union with the Son and the Father. 25 And this is what Christ himself promised to give us—eternal life.

26 I am writing this to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 But as for you, Christ has poured out his Spirit on you. As long as his Spirit remains in you, you do not need anyone to teach you. For his Spirit teaches you about everything, and what he teaches is true, not false. Obey the Spirit's teaching, then, and remain in union with Christ.

28 Yes, my children, remain in union with him, so that when he appears we may be full of courage and need not hide in shame from him on the Day he comes. 29 You know that Christ is righteous; you should know, then, that everyone who does what is right is God's child.

Children of God
3 See how much the Father has loved us! His love is so great that we are called God's children—and so, in fact, we are. This is why the world does not know us: it has not known God. 2 My dear friends, we are now God's children, but it is not yet clear what we shall become. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he really is. 3 Everyone who has this hope in Christ keeps himself pure, just as Christ is pure.

4 Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God's law, because sin is a breaking of the law. 5 You know that Christ appeared in order to take away sins,[c] and that there is no sin in him. 6 So everyone who lives in union with Christ does not continue to sin; but whoever continues to sin has never seen him or known him.

7 Let no one deceive you, my children! Whoever does what is right is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. 8 Whoever continues to sin belongs to the Devil, because the Devil has sinned from the very beginning. The Son of God appeared for this very reason, to destroy what the Devil had done.

9 Those who are children of God do not continue to sin, for God's very nature is in them; and because God is their Father, they cannot continue to sin. 10 Here is the clear difference between God's children and the Devil's children: those who do not do what is right or do not love others are not God's children.

Love One Another
11 The message you heard from the very beginning is this: we must love one another. 12 We must not be like Cain; he belonged to the Evil One and murdered his own brother Abel. Why did Cain murder him? Because the things he himself did were wrong, and the things his brother did were right.

13 So do not be surprised, my friends, if the people of the world hate you. 14 We know that we have left death and come over into life; we know it because we love others. Those who do not love are still under the power of death. 15 Those who hate others are murderers, and you know that murderers do not have eternal life in them. 16 This is how we know what love is: Christ gave his life for us. We too, then, ought to give our lives for others! 17 If we are rich and see others in need, yet close our hearts against them, how can we claim that we love God? 18 My children, our love should not be just words and talk; it must be true love, which shows itself in action.

Courage before God
19 This, then, is how we will know that we belong to the truth; this is how we will be confident in God's presence. 20 If our conscience condemns us, we know that God is greater than our conscience and that he knows everything. 21 And so, my dear friends, if our conscience does not condemn us, we have courage in God's presence. 22 We receive from him whatever we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 What he commands is that we believe in his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as Christ commanded us. 24 Those who obey God's commands live in union with God and God lives in union with them. And because of the Spirit that God has given us we know that God lives in union with us.

The True Spirit and the False Spirit
4 My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the Spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere. 2 This is how you will be able to know whether it is God's Spirit: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus Christ came as a human being has the Spirit who comes from God. 3 But anyone who denies this about Jesus does not have the Spirit from God. The spirit that he has is from the Enemy of Christ; you heard that it would come, and now it is here in the world already.

4 But you belong to God, my children, and have defeated the false prophets, because the Spirit who is in you is more powerful than the spirit in those who belong to the world. 5 Those false prophets speak about matters of the world, and the world listens to them because they belong to the world. 6 But we belong to God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever does not belong to God does not listen to us. This, then, is how we can tell the difference between the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

God Is Love
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Whoever loves is a child of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 And God showed his love for us by sending his only Son into the world, so that we might have life through him. 10 This is what love is: it is not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the means by which our sins are forgiven.

11 Dear friends, if this is how God loved us, then we should love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in union with us, and his love is made perfect in us.

13 We are sure that we live in union with God and that he lives in union with us, because he has given us his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and tell others that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If we declare that Jesus is the Son of God, we live in union with God and God lives in union with us. 16 And we ourselves know and believe the love which God has for us.

God is love, and those who live in love live in union with God and God lives in union with them. 17 Love is made perfect in us in order that we may have courage on the Judgment Day; and we will have it because our life in this world is the same as Christ's. 18 There is no fear in love; perfect love drives out all fear. So then, love has not been made perfect in anyone who is afraid, because fear has to do with punishment.

19 We love because God first loved us. 20 If we say we love God, but hate others, we are liars. For we cannot love God, whom we have not seen, if we do not love others, whom we have seen. 21 The command that Christ has given us is this: whoever loves God must love others also.

Our Victory over the World
5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Messiah is a child of God; and whoever loves a father loves his child also. 2 This is how we know that we love God's children: it is by loving God and obeying his commands. 3 For our love for God means that we obey his commands. And his commands are not too hard for us, 4 because every child of God is able to defeat the world. And we win the victory over the world by means of our faith. 5 Who can defeat the world? Only the person who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

The Witness about Jesus Christ
6 Jesus Christ is the one who came with the water of his baptism and the blood of his death. He came not only with the water, but with both the water and the blood. And the Spirit himself testifies that this is true, because the Spirit is truth. 7 There are three witnesses: 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and all three give the same testimony. 9 We believe human testimony; but God's testimony is much stronger, and he has given this testimony about his Son. 10 So those who believe in the Son of God have this testimony in their own heart; but those who do not believe God, have made a liar of him, because they have not believed what God has said about his Son. 11 The testimony is this: God has given us eternal life, and this life has its source in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has this life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Eternal Life
13 I am writing this to you so that you may know that you have eternal life—you that believe in the Son of God. 14 We have courage in God's presence, because we are sure that he hears us if we ask him for anything that is according to his will. 15 He hears us whenever we ask him; and since we know this is true, we know also that he gives us what we ask from him.

16 If you see a believer commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray to God, who will give that person life. This applies to those whose sins do not lead to death. But there is sin which leads to death, and I do not say that you should pray to God about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which does not lead to death.

18 We know that no children of God keep on sinning, for the Son of God keeps them safe, and the Evil One cannot harm them.

19 We know that we belong to God even though the whole world is under the rule of the Evil One.

20 We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we know the true God. We live in union with the true God—in union with his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and this is eternal life.

21 My children, keep yourselves safe from false gods!

 

[tampasteve]

Do you know of Wuest being online?

As in the author from the 1950s?

 

[tampasteve]

I have no clue why you think I am trying to justify hate.

The point you seem to be missing is, early prophets of LDS were haters of black people.
That practice of hate puts them outside the Christian Church because they are walking in darkness.

The point you seem to be missing is that many Christians including Luther, many Popes, etc. hated black people, Jewish people, etc. I don't see how you can honestly feel like because the reformers were haters longer ago it somehow is different from the LDS leadership that has subsequently disavowed racism and bigotry much as the other churches have. At least the LDS Church has continuing Revelation to use, the other churches have no such advantage.

*Edit
I don't think you are trying to justify hate, I think your method of condemning LDS leadership of old is misguided.

 

[Rescued One]

In context, he was speaking to LDS Missionaries to avoid questions they do not have answers for.

Thank You for pointing out that tactic,
Daniel

Don't forget --- I was Mormon. What's good for the missionaries is employed by others. Every member is told to proselytize. The methods are the same.

 

[Rescued One]

The point you seem to be missing is that many Christians including Luther, many Popes, etc. hated black people, Jewish people, etc. I don't see how you can honestly feel like because the reformers were haters longer ago it somehow is different from the LDS leadership that has subsequently disavowed racism and bigotry much as the other churches have. At least the LDS Church has continuing Revelation to use, the other churches have no such advantage.

*Edit
I don't think you are trying to justify hate, I think your method of condemning LDS leadership of old is misguided.

People who HATE are NOT Christians.

1 John 2
7Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. 9He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1 John 3
10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother...

14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


1 John 4
20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

 

[Jane_Doe]

People who HATE are NOT Christians.

Ok, so you believe Martian Luther wasn't a Christian?

 

[Jane_Doe]

OK:
Our Christ is not a brother to Satan, He created Lucifer--our Christ is not one of God's sons, He is The Only Son of God. Our Christ did not have His Father as a human who became a man---Nor does our Christ have a heavenly mother. Our Christ was not conceived by natural means but by the Holy Spirit---
Our Christ created this world and EVERYTHING ELSE---Our Christ created us to be fruitful and multiply in the garden of Eden before the fall and we do not see the fall as a favor done us so we can have children---our Christ did not create us with a heavenly mother --He created us from dust and we never existed before we were born. Our Christ is giving us eternal life--with Him on this one earth with God the Father for everyone--Our Christ says there is no marriage in heaven.
Now---our Christ comes strictly from the bible which does not include any of these things----so where does your Christ come from?

"My" Christ is the Son of God. Eternal and almighty, the Only Begotten. He created the Earth and all things in it. He redeemed the Earth and all people in it, through His sacrifice. He offers salvation to all whom would accept Him and believe on His name. He not the Father. Rather He one with the Father, and bows down to Him out of love and respect.

The Father is the Father of all. There is no other. He is almighty and all-knowing. Nothing in this world has not gone according to His great plan and never has He had to say "go well some other person messed me up, guess I got to go get a Plan B now".

 

[mmksparbud]

"My" Christ is the Son of God. Eternal and almighty, the Only Begotten. He created the Earth and all things in it. He redeemed the Earth and all people in it, through His sacrifice. He offers salvation to all whom would accept Him and believe on His name. He not the Father. Rather He one with the Father, and bows down to Him out of love and respect.

The Father is the Father of all. There is no other. He is almighty and all-knowing. Nothing in this world has not gone according to His great plan and never has He had to say "go well some other person messed me up, guess I got to go get a Plan B now".

Moved this over to that other thread:

LDS - Jane Doe, Let's talk about Jesus