LDS Were these people excommunicated?

[Jane_Doe]

You can talk about Christ till your blue in the face--that does not answer other questions regarding what is the LDS believe about that salvation. The thing is this: What is it that saves you and where do you get that information from?

Christ and accepting Him. Salvation is His gift.

Hence why I keep focusing on Him and accepting Him. The talk about different kingdoms or JS... frankly that's not what saves and I find it to have much less relevance. But seemingly it's what people want to talk about instead of Christ. I find it very frustrating.

 

[mmksparbud]

Christ and accepting Him. Salvation is His gift.

Hence why I keep focusing on Him and accepting Him. The talk about different kingdoms or JS... frankly that's not what saves and I find it to have much less relevance. But seemingly it's what people want to talk about instead of Christ. I find it very frustrating.

Frustrating indeed when again--Jesus is not really the ultimate focus, but, what is the interpretation of the whole of the bible according to JS, and it is frustrating to hear, Jesus---when the truth is JS. Jesus deals with, truth not just words, but the heart. JS does not save Jesus does, but not the Jesus of the mind of JS, but the Jesus of the bible. Not the God of the BOM, but the God the the Bible. The bible is the word of God, but the LDS hold the writings of JS on the same level as the bible and in fact it is above it, for if there is any question about anything in it, it is the writings of JS that take precedence. The words that the LDS say and the actual believes are not the same thing and that is very frustrating. It is not the same Gospel, it is not the same Jesus, it is not the same God the Father, it is not the same Holy Spirit, it is not the same salvation, it is not the same reward. It is very simple to say, Jesus is the way---but when it actually means JS is the way---there isn't going to be a clear understanding of Jesus. If a lie is not faced, and seen for what it is, it can only be believed.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Frustrating indeed when again--Jesus is not really the ultimate focus, but, what is the interpretation of the whole of the bible according to JS, and it is frustrating to hear, Jesus---when the truth is JS. Jesus deals with, truth not just words, but the heart. JS does not save Jesus does, but not the Jesus of the mind of JS, but the Jesus of the bible. Not the God of the BOM, but the God the the Bible. The bible is the word of God, but the LDS hold the writings of JS on the same level as the bible and in fact it is above it, for if there is any question about anything in it, it is the writings of JS that take precedence. The words that the LDS say and the actual believes are not the same thing and that is very frustrating. It is not the same Gospel, it is not the same Jesus, it is not the same God the Father, it is not the same Holy Spirit, it is not the same salvation, it is not the same reward. It is very simple to say, Jesus is the way---but when it actually means JS is the way---there isn't going to be a clear understanding of Jesus. If a lie is not faced, and seen for what it is, it can only be believed.

It is frustrating when you're trying to talk about the most important thing in your life- the vary core of who you are, and having another person refuse to talk about it and totally ignore you in favor of something else.

 

[mmksparbud]

It is frustrating when you're trying to talk about the most important thing in your life- the vary core of who you are, and having another person refuse to talk about it and totally ignore you in favor of something else.

I know how you feel. However, this is a forum for debating about different religious topics. Now, I can talk to my SDA friends about Jesus all I want--we are on the same wave length. On here, I expect, and have frequently, had to state my views as an SDA about a great many topics not just what I want to talk about, but what others are asking about, and talking about. That is what this place is for.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I know how you feel. However, this is a forum for debating about different religious topics. Now, I can talk to my SDA friends about Jesus all I want--we are on the same wave length. On here, I expect, and have frequently, had to state my views as an SDA about a great many topics not just what I want to talk about, but what others are asking about, and talking about. That is what this place is for.

But seemingly very few people on here want to talk about Christ. They'd rather talk about subjects of way lesser importance.

 

[mmksparbud]

But seemingly very few people on here want to talk about Christ. They'd rather talk about subjects of way lesser importance.

Like I said---that is what this place is for---discussing what is on people's mind. When I want to talk about the same thing that I know my SDA friends are interested in, I talk to them. Here is to discuss the different, not the same thing. It is for learning something that we do not know about. It is to find the truth of things and to explain our version of things. There are guidelines, and we're supposed to stay on topic. The topic on this thread is not Jesus. I don't think any LDS thread has ever stayed on topic. There are threads that discuss Jesus. This is not one of them----except that He permeates every topic--which is only right, this is a Christian Forum, after all.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Like I said---that is what this place is for---discussing what is on people's mind. When I want to talk about the same thing that I know my SDA friends are interested in, I talk to them.

(Editted to more polite)

It honestly seems like people on ChristianForums are not interested in talking about Christ. I don't feel like Christ is a LDS-only topic of interest that I need to shun ChristianForums and just hang out on LDS boards. This... it causes me frustration.

 

[mmksparbud]

So... you're saying you think if I want to talk about Christ I need to go to a Mormon-only board?

That is not what I said, you are twisting things. I said "When I want to talk about the same thing that I know my SDA friends are interested in, I talk to them."

Where no one wants to talk about Christ.

Not at all true. Jesus is always brought into the subject. It just is not the specific topic of this thread. We always do go off topic for awhile though. And Jesus has been talked about at every thread. It's that the Jesus you talk about is not the same Jesus we have in mind, so it always goes back to what JS has to say about Him also. Debates are by definition--about different points of view.

 

[Jane_Doe]

That is not what I said, you are twisting things. I said "When I want to talk about the same thing that I know my SDA friends are interested in, I talk to them."

And I want to talk abut Christ. This is not a LDS-specific topic of interest.

It just is not the specific topic of this thread.

You want to talk about salvation and who it pertains to? That cannot be done without talking about Christ.

And Jesus has been talked about at every thread. It's that the Jesus you talk about is not the same Jesus we have in mind, so it always goes back to what JS has to say about Him also. Debates are by definition--about different points of view.

I don't want to talk about JS. I want to talk about Christ. It's not about JS.

 

[BigDaddy4]

But seemingly very few people on here want to talk about Christ. They'd rather talk about subjects of way lesser importance.

Please note this sections statement of purpose (bolded mine for emphasis):

The Debate Other Religions & Faiths forum is for our Christian members (as defined by the CF Statement of Faith) to debate (challenge) the beliefs of other non-Christian religions & faiths, and for members of other non-Christian religions and faiths to defend their religious beliefs. Only orthodox (Trinitarian) Christians and the members of the specific religion or faith being challenged may participate in the thread. For example, if the thread is about the beliefs of the Later Day Saints (Mormons) then only orthodox (Trinitarian) Christians and Mormons may participate in the thread. Choosing to participate in this debate forum means that you are aware that your religious beliefs and practices may be challenged. Members, however, are never to be personally attacked or mocked. Please understand that in a debate the discussion may become heated at times. Keep your focus on challenging the idea, not attacking the poster. Flaming is defined as an attack on another member's character, as opposed to their arguments or beliefs. Please be aware, however, that some techniques used to attack another member's arguments or beliefs may be considered goading another member into responding with a flame. When discussing and debating controversial topics some mild flaming is bound to take place. Blatant flames toward another member such as, "You stupid moron," are unacceptable and will lead to staff actions. Stick to attacking another member's arguments rather than their person.
...

If you participate on these threads in this section of CF, your beliefs (and that of the lds church) will be challenged. If you don't want your beliefs challenged, or to defend your beliefs, then this may not be the place for you. But please stop complaining that "no one wants to talk about Christ". We challenge the lds about their non-Scriptural beliefs/teachings about Christ frequently.

 

[BigDaddy4]

And I want to talk abut Christ. This is not a LDS-specific topic of interest.

You want to talk about salvation and who it pertains to? That cannot be done without talking about Christ.

I don't want to talk about JS. I want to talk about Christ. It's not about JS.

JS started your church. JS redefined who Christ is. It is EXTREMELY important to talk about him in relation to his teachings. The Bible warns of false teachers like him.

Salvation is found in Christ. The lds, through JS, have redefined what that means.

 

[Rescued One]

And I want to talk abut Christ. This is not a LDS-specific topic of interest.

You want to talk about salvation and who it pertains to? That cannot be done without talking about Christ.

I don't want to talk about JS. I want to talk about Christ. It's not about JS.

If you aren't willing to leave the Mormon church, you are making it about Joseph Smith.

 

[Rescued One]

It is frustrating when you're trying to talk about the most important thing in your life- the vary core of who you are, and having another person refuse to talk about it and totally ignore you in favor of something else.

Jesus is not a thing.

 

[Rescued One]

Mormons are taught:

“Secondly, we really aren’t obligated to answer everyone’s questions. I’ve not had all my questions answered. The Lord hasn’t chosen to do that. He probably hasn’t answered all of yours. And nor are we obligated to answer everyone else’s questions...

"The principle I would like to get across to you is this: We learn to answer the right question. Answer the right question."
Robert Millet, former Dean of Religious Education, speaking to the Mission Prep Club at BYU.

IOW, if the Mormon doesn't like the question, ignore it and change the subject!

 

[Jane_Doe]

If you aren't willing to leave the Mormon church, you are making it about Joseph Smith.

Phoebe, my faith isn't about Joseph Smith, it's about Christ.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I am striving to understand your logic here.

Are you saying that you believe someone who preaches hate is not of Christ, as are all people who follow him?

If they have the same hate in their hearts yes.

A good example was those that followed Malcolm X, during his hate period. It was not uncommon for his followers to gang up on a white person and beat them.

1 John 3:15 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Again I suggest, you read the short book of First John in the Bible.

Note: individual sin, one needs only to ask, see I John 1:8-10

 

[mmksparbud]

Phoebe, my faith isn't about Joseph Smith, it's about Christ.

OK:
Our Christ is not a brother to Satan, He created Lucifer--our Christ is not one of God's sons, He is The Only Son of God. Our Christ did not have His Father as a human who became a man---Nor does our Christ have a heavenly mother. Our Christ was not conceived by natural means but by the Holy Spirit---
Our Christ created this world and EVERYTHING ELSE---Our Christ created us to be fruitful and multiply in the garden of Eden before the fall and we do not see the fall as a favor done us so we can have children---our Christ did not create us with a heavenly mother --He created us from dust and we never existed before we were born. Our Christ is giving us eternal life--with Him on this one earth with God the Father for everyone--Our Christ says there is no marriage in heaven.
Now---our Christ comes strictly from the bible which does not include any of these things----so where does your Christ come from?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

No, there isn't; and the copy and paste litany does not change that in my mind. Bigotry and racism have been present in essentially all schools and denominations of Christianity, fortunately we have started to put that behind us, including the LDS church. If you want to somehow justify it in churches other than the LDS, that somehow it is on a different level, that is upon you; but to me sin is sin, hate is a sin, therefore if one hates that is sinning. One can be forgiven of sin.

I have no clue why you think I am trying to justify hate.

The point you seem to be missing is, early prophets of LDS were haters of black people.
That practice of hate puts them outside the Christian Church because they are walking in darkness.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Just as a side note, several of the translations you posted are not really scholarly translations and should not be used in debate or discussion like this. I am not necessarily debating what you are trying to posit. I am saying that it is better to quote from the mainstream recognized versions such as KJV, RSV, ESV, and NASB. As an example, "The Passion Translation" is not really a translation but is rather a paraphrase by a single author, Brian Simmons. The webpage for it for it clearly states that "words need to be changed" to fit his interpretation of the passage. "The Message" has similar issues. These Bibles can be very helpful in personal study, but not in discussions like this.

Do you know of Wuest being online?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Since that scripture is from the NT can you point me to why it would also not apply to Athanasian Christians? Read at face value it would include not just the Prophets you mention, but countless Athanasian Christians.

As for murder and King David in particular in LDS theology, here is a pretty good sumamary that I think clarifies it from that point of view:
Mormon Doctrine: Can Murder Be Forgiven?

David received a promise that the Lord would not leave his soul in hell—which is the process of suffering for one’s own sins in the Spirit World before resurrection and final judgment. Thus, David has not been forgiven, but will be pardoned. Thus, murder is not forgivable, but it is pardonable. Murderers will suffer for their own sins, meaning they are unforgiven, but they will not be completely cast outside the influence of God’s glory in the life to come, if they do try to repent.
​

Essentially, God can decide if one is able to be forgiven, as murder is unforgivable but not unpardonable. Compared to blasphemy of the HS, which is both unforgivable and unpardonable.

Your LDS source completely misunderstands Psalm 16:10. In context, the text refers to being raised from the dead, not pardoned. The second half of verse ten is used concerning the Messiah. When you use LDS sources, you need to check their quote from the Bible in CONTEXT.

Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices;
My flesh also will rest in hope.
10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
11 You will show me the path of life;
In Your presence is fullness of joy;
At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

Acts 2:27
For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 13:35
Therefore He also says in another Psalm: ‘You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.’