For all that fear hell

[Ronald]

Actually.....no, we aren't "brothers". I am your sister See the "gal" in my screen name?

Oops, hi sis.

 

[mkgal1]

Their veils will be lifted and they will see their Messiah (Romans 11)

That also has already begun. Acts 2:32-39 has a beautiful example of that:

God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses. Therefore having been exalted at the right hand of God, and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you are both seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet."

"Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!"

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This promise belongs to you and to your children and to all who are far off, to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself."



​

 

[Ronald]

That also has already begun. Acts 2:32-39 has a beautiful example of that:

God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses. Therefore having been exalted at the right hand of God, and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you are both seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet."

"Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!"

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This promise belongs to you and to your children and to all who are far off, to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself."



​

It is no secret but apparent that Jews are blind to the Lord to this day. Some have been saved, but a remnant 1/3 will be saved during Christ's Second Coming. If there are some 14 millions Jews today in the world, than that would mean over 4 million will have their veils lifted within a short period of time and they will look upon Jesus and realized He is their Messiah and has been all along. The verse, "every eye will see Him" is not symbolic for something else. He will return physically and the world will see Him.

 

[mkgal1]

Some have been saved, but a remnant 1/3 will be saved during Christ's Second Coming.

Where does that idea come from, that it's 1/3 that will be saved during Christ's second coming?

 

[rjs330]

All scriptures that have been dealt with by so many. But if you are bound to believe what you do, all I can say is, I understand, I too used to believe like you do.

And those that have dealt with the scriptures have dine what many do. Do everything in their power to make the Bible align with their belief rather than the other way around.

It's astounding the amount of exigetical and hermenutical gymnastics you and others go through in order to make an scriptural argument on this. I have discovered that folks that do so do it on many topics and not just one.

Some people just do not want to believe what the Bible says. I get it. People just can't wrap their minds around a loving God condemning the sinner. Therefore since it doesn't jive with their idea of a loving God therefore the scriptures can't really mean what they say. They HAVE to mean something else. So the cherry picking begins. Scriptures that support the belief are accepted and the others rejected or twisted beyond recognition. Whereas accepting that all scriptures are true as written and there is an obvious explanation just can't be done in their minds.

It's okay, it doesn't matter to them because they are saved and going to heaven in the end. Where it does matter is to those who reject salvation who decide to believe that they will be saved in the end and they base it on false doctrine, dooming themselves.

I wonder if you and others who trust in that unscriptural belief will feel any responsibility for that in the end. Probably not because regardless each person will be responsible for their own choices. And even you will grasp that in the end.

I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Another scroll was opened too; this is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged on the basis of what was written in the scrolls about what they had done.The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and the Grave gave up the dead that were in them, and people were judged by what they had done.Then Death and the Grave were thrown into the fiery lake. This, the fiery lake, is the second death.Then anyone whose name wasn’t found written in the scroll of life was thrown into the fiery lake. - Revelation 20:12-15 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:12-15 - Common English Bible

 

[Hillsage]

And those that have dealt with the scriptures have dine what many do. Do everything in their power to make the Bible align with their belief rather than the other way around.

It's astounding the amount of exigetical and hermenutical gymnastics you and others go through in order to make an scriptural argument on this. I have discovered that folks that do so do it on many topics and not just one.

Some people just do not want to believe what the Bible says. I get it. People just can't wrap their minds around a loving God condemning the sinner. Therefore since it doesn't jive with their idea of a loving God therefore the scriptures can't really mean what they say. They HAVE to mean something else. So the cherry picking begins. Scriptures that support the belief are accepted and the others rejected or twisted beyond recognition. Whereas accepting that all scriptures are true as written and there is an obvious explanation just can't be done in their minds.

It's okay, it doesn't matter to them because they are saved and going to heaven in the end. Where it does matter is to those who reject salvation who decide to believe that they will be saved in the end and they base it on false doctrine, dooming themselves.

I wonder if you and others who trust in that unscriptural belief will feel any responsibility for that in the end. Probably not because regardless each person will be responsible for their own choices. And even you will grasp that in the end.

I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Another scroll was opened too; this is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged on the basis of what was written in the scrolls about what they had done.The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and the Grave gave up the dead that were in them, and people were judged by what they had done.Then Death and the Grave were thrown into the fiery lake. This, the fiery lake, is the second death.Then anyone whose name wasn’t found written in the scroll of life was thrown into the fiery lake. - Revelation 20:12-15 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:12-15 - Common English Bible

Didn't read much cause it's the same old 'been there before' diatribe from your side too.

I'm going end with this; On the day I stand before Jesus I will be disappointed if I'm wrong. But I'd hate to be you, if you're wrong. I have no problem resting in my position until that day, and I honestly see no point in dialoguing any more with you concerning this matter. And I certainly can't say 'I hope you're right'.

 

[mkgal1]

And those that have dealt with the scriptures have dine what many do. Do everything in their power to make the Bible align with their belief rather than the other way around.

It's astounding the amount of exigetical and hermenutical gymnastics you and others go through in order to make an scriptural argument on this. I have discovered that folks that do so do it on many topics and not just one.

I wonder if you and others who trust in that unscriptural belief will feel any responsibility for that in the end.

Speaking of attempts of making the Bible align with one's belief instead of the other way around: I don't recall that these verses have been dealt with:

Some key phrases that are typically missed (that point to the inauguration of God's kin-dom as a point in *history*....not a future event for us):

I promise you some of those standing here will not die before they see the Son of Man coming with his kingdom. ~Matthew 16:28

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.~Matthew 24:34


"You have said it yourself," Jesus answered. "But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.~Matthew 26:64


"At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.~Mark 13:26​

 

[mkgal1]

Some people just do not want to believe what the Bible says. I get it. People just can't wrap their minds around a loving God condemning the sinner. Therefore since it doesn't jive with their idea of a loving God therefore the scriptures can't really mean what they say. They HAVE to mean something else. So the cherry picking begins. Scriptures that support the belief are accepted and the others rejected or twisted beyond recognition.

What seems to be the case to me is that some people can't wrap their minds around a God that loves (and hates) differently than they do. They only see one form of justice (and it's retributive instead of restorative).

Personally I can't buy into the god that you describe any longer, mostly because that's NOT what I see woven all throughout the Bible:

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.~John 3:17​

It doesn't seem like much of a god, if He didn't accomplish what He set out to do. With His foreknowledge, He'd know the outcome.....and if the outcome were as bleak as you portray it...it doesn't quite seem like much of a victory (in my opinion).

I'm grateful for the optimistic and victorious view I now have--especially seeing the grounding it has in Scripture as opposed to the view I used to have....the view you're selling.

​

 

[Der Alte]

What seems to be the case to me is that some people can't wrap their minds around a God that loves (and hates) differently than they do. They only see one form of justice (and it's retributive instead of restorative).
Personally I can't buy into the god that you describe any longer, mostly because that's NOT what I see woven all throughout the Bible:

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.~John 3:17​

It doesn't seem like much of a god, if He didn't accomplish what He set out to do. With His foreknowledge, He'd know the outcome.....and if the outcome were as bleak as you portray it...it doesn't quite seem like much of a victory (in my opinion).
I'm grateful for the optimistic and victorious view I now have--especially seeing the grounding it has in Scripture as opposed to the view I used to have....the view you're selling.

Since none of my previous posts have been responded to I assume this poster has me on ignore. "They only see one form of justice (and it's retributive instead of restorative)." Was the justice God administered to the world of Noah's day retributive or restorative? Was the justice God administered to Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain retributive or restorative? Is there even one single verse which states that God will save anyone after death?

 

[mkgal1]

From:

------>Most people today, in short, assume that the word God refers to a dull, distant, and perhaps dangerous being. Most of those who think like that try hard, not surprisingly, to believe that this being doesn’t exist. “I don’t believe in God,” said the novelist Kingsley Amis, “and I hate him.”

They are right.

That God—the dull, distant, and dangerous one—does not exist (128).

But the Reformers, and then the Puritans, and then many other Christian movements such as the early Methodists, had a different reaction. They stressed the saving death of Jesus as the means by which the wrath of God had been averted. Often this was accompanied by great gratitude and ove. Often, however, it has left the semipagan vision of God untouched. That then produced a further reaction, which is where the modern angry atheists come in (129).



Read more at Deconstructing the Bully God -- NT Wright

 

[Ron Gurley]

Believers are not judged as to their spiritual position .... nor sentenced for eternity into the spiritual realm of the "lake of fire".

 

[sdowney717]

The Wrath of God is revealed from heaven against the ungodly.
People who experience that wrath shall not see life, they shall perish completely destroyed in an everlasting fire.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

[mkgal1]

Speaking of attempts of making the Bible align with one's belief instead of the other way around: I don't recall that these verses have been dealt with:

Anyone?

Some key phrases that are typically missed (that point to the inauguration of God's kin-dom as a point in *history*....not a future event for us):

I promise you some of those standing here will not die before they see the Son of Man coming with his kingdom. ~Matthew 16:28

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.~Matthew 24:34


"You have said it yourself," Jesus answered. "But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.~Matthew 26:64


"At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.~Mark 13:26

 

[mkgal1]

Believers are not judged as to their spiritual position .... nor sentenced for eternity into the spiritual realm of the "lake of fire".

People who experience that wrath shall not see life, they shall perish completely destroyed in an everlasting fire.

What do you two believe about Revelation 21:4.....where it's written the "former things have passed away"?

And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more nor mourning nor crying nor pain; they will be no more, because the former things have passed away."​

What do you think will be necessary for that to come to fruition? Do you think that's just going to be an instant thing, where God's presence just immediately causes us to be perfected into His holiness and we'll then only exhibit righteous behavior towards others?

You don't believe there's any "dross" that needs to be "burned off" from your selves (because....I will certainly admit that I need some refining fire).

​

 

[mkgal1]

This small adjustment in perception (IMO) from viewing the NT in a futuristic way to the context in which the apostles understood Jesus' message is profound. Quoting William Manson, “Eschatology in the New Testament, from the publication linked:

------->The apostles understood eschatology not merely as futurology but as a mindset for understanding the present within the climaxing context of redemptive history. That is, the apostles understood that they were already living in the end times, and that they were to understand their present salvation in Christ to be already an end-time reality. William Manson has well said, When we turn to the New Testament, we pass from the climate of prediction to that of fulfillment. The things which God had foreshadowed by the lips of His holy prophets He has now, in part at least, brought to accomplishment. . . . The supreme sign of the Eschaton is the Resurrection of Jesus and the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Church. The Resurrection of Jesus is not simply a sign which God has granted in favour of His son, but is the inauguration, the entrance into history, of the times of the End. Christians, therefore, have entered through the Christ into the new age. . . . What had been predicted in Holy Scripture as to happen to Israel or to man in the Eschaton, has happened to and in Jesus. The foundation-stone of the New Creation has come into position. 3~https://www.wtsbooks.com/common/pdf_links/9780801049606.pdf

....to have a futuristic perception is to miss the joy and hope that's there (in my view).

 

[rjs330]

Didn't read much cause it's the same old 'been there before' diatribe from your side too.

I'm going end with this; On the day I stand before Jesus I will be disappointed if I'm wrong. But I'd hate to be you, if you're wrong. I have no problem resting in my position until that day, and I honestly see no point in dialoguing any more with you concerning this matter. And I certainly can't say 'I hope you're right'.

Why would you hate to be me? I'm saved just like you. If I am wrong there's no problem because everyone is in heaven anyway. If you are wrong then a lot people will be in hell and you will have culpability in that you told them they would be saved.

 

[rjs330]

Speaking of attempts of making the Bible align with one's belief instead of the other way around: I don't recall that these verses have been dealt with:

Those verses can be dealt with in another topic. It's off topic here.

 

[rjs330]

What seems to be the case to me is that some people can't wrap their minds around a God that loves (and hates) differently than they do. They only see one form of justice (and it's retributive instead of restorative).

Personally I can't buy into the god that you describe any longer, mostly because that's NOT what I see woven all throughout the Bible:

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.~John 3:17​

It doesn't seem like much of a god, if He didn't accomplish what He set out to do. With His foreknowledge, He'd know the outcome.....and if the outcome were as bleak as you portray it...it doesn't quite seem like much of a victory (in my opinion).

I'm grateful for the optimistic and victorious view I now have--especially seeing the grounding it has in Scripture as opposed to the view I used to have....the view you're selling.

​

Well once again you have proved my point. You use scriptures that seem to support your point of you while ignoring the rest of the context.
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so must the Human One be lifted upso that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him won’t perish but will have eternal life.Whoever believes in him isn’t judged; whoever doesn’t believe in him is already judged, because they don’t believe in the name of God’s only Son. - John 3:14-16,18 Bible Gateway passage: John 3:14-16, John 3:18 - Common English Bible

Please adjust your beliefs to what the scripture says.

 

[rjs330]

What do you two believe about Revelation 21:4.....where it's written the "former things have passed away"?

And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more nor mourning nor crying nor pain; they will be no more, because the former things have passed away."​

What do you think will be necessary for that to come to fruition? Do you think that's just going to be an instant thing, where God's presence just immediately causes us to be perfected into His holiness and we'll then only exhibit righteous behavior towards others?

You don't believe there's any "dross" that needs to be "burned off" from your selves (because....I will certainly admit that I need some refining fire).

​

All that is necessary has already been done. It is an instant thing. Take a look.
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more. There will be no mourning, crying, or pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”Then the one seated on the throne said, “Look! I’m making all things new.” He also said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”Then he said to me, “All is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will freely give water from the life-giving spring.Those who emerge victorious will inherit these things. I will be their God, and they will be my sons and daughters.But for the cowardly, the faithless, the vile, the murderers, those who commit sexual immorality, those who use drugs and cast spells, the idolaters and all liars—their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”Nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is vile and deceitful, but only those who are registered in the Lamb’s scroll of life. - Revelation 21:4-8,27 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:4-8, Revelation 21:27 - Common English Bible

There is no more crying or morning. Note he said "All is done". It all been accomplished. Nothing unclean will come in. We have been cleansed by the blood of the lamb. No dross will need to be burned. All refining comes on this Earth and in this life. It is appointed for all men once to die, and then the judgement. Nothing more can be done once we pass over.

 

[rjs330]

This small adjustment in perception (IMO) from viewing the NT in a futuristic way to the context in which the apostles understood Jesus' message is profound. Quoting William Manson, “Eschatology in the New Testament, from the publication linked:

------->The apostles understood eschatology not merely as futurology but as a mindset for understanding the present within the climaxing context of redemptive history. That is, the apostles understood that they were already living in the end times, and that they were to understand their present salvation in Christ to be already an end-time reality. William Manson has well said, When we turn to the New Testament, we pass from the climate of prediction to that of fulfillment. The things which God had foreshadowed by the lips of His holy prophets He has now, in part at least, brought to accomplishment. . . . The supreme sign of the Eschaton is the Resurrection of Jesus and the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Church. The Resurrection of Jesus is not simply a sign which God has granted in favour of His son, but is the inauguration, the entrance into history, of the times of the End. Christians, therefore, have entered through the Christ into the new age. . . . What had been predicted in Holy Scripture as to happen to Israel or to man in the Eschaton, has happened to and in Jesus. The foundation-stone of the New Creation has come into position. 3~https://www.wtsbooks.com/common/pdf_links/9780801049606.pdf

....to have a futuristic perception is to miss the joy and hope that's there (in my view).

The future starts now as they say. Yes the time of Christ ushered in the "end days". The time clock started then. Jesus did recognize that there is a specific end. Jesus addressed that in Matthew 24. It is also addressed in Revelations.

There is an end at the end. We are living in the end times that started with Christ, but there is a specific end of times that is futuristic from the time of Christ when he walked the earth.