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For all that fear hell

mkgal1

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You are a Prederist. That question was a two-part question the disciples asked, one about the fall of Jerusalem and the second part about His Second Coming/ the end of the age.
I've recently been informed that I am a "preterist"......so I guess that's true (why, when I read that, did I imagine you with an outstretched arm and finger pointing towards me, I wonder :scratch:).

Yes....it was a multi-part question...but you're dividing the questions differently than what I understand. "The coming of Christ" is not the same thing as His second coming (that "coming in the clouds" in Matt 24 is His coming from earth to heaven). The "end of the age" was the end of the Jewish age/Old Covenant and the inauguration of the Kingdom of God.
 
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sdowney717

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I've recently been informed that I am a "preterist"......so I guess that's true (why, when I read that did I imagine you with an outstretched arm and finger pointing towards me, I wonder :scratch:).

Yes....it was a multi-part question...but you're dividing the questions differently than what I understand. "The coming of Christ" is not the same thing as His second coming (that "coming in the clouds" in Matt 24 is His coming from earth to heaven). The "end of the age" was the end of the Jewish age/Old Covenant and the inauguration of the Kingdom of God.
So what then is this? And surely you can not say this happened in the past.

2 Thessalonians 1
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
 
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mkgal1

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Jerusalem was a small town, small change compared to judgment that will come upon the entire world
Jerusalem isn't "small" in significance within God's kingdom, though. The offense against them is greater than I can imagine against God personally, in the rejection and murder of their Messiah.

God did not intend for man to suffer in a sinful world for eons without end. And since man cannot remove sin, God must. So this plan for humanity as we know it is finite and our salvation is eternal. All former things will pass away, death and Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed _ along with Satan and his demonic horde - or do you also think that happened in 70 A.D. too?
No....I agree with you on this.......this is still to come. It's a process ....a trajectory towards what was once in the Garden of Eden towards what will be again......

And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more nor mourning nor crying nor pain; they will be no more, because the former things have passed away."~Revelation 21:4

In that day the wolf and the lamb will live together; the leopard will lie down with the baby goat. The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion, and a little child will lead them all.~Isaiah 11:6

 
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sdowney717

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Hebrews 9, how about this second coming, v28, has not yet occured.
v26 was the crucifixion.
v28 is still future.
I suppose those who say Christ already came the second time, have nothing to look forward to.

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
 
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mkgal1

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So what then is this? And surely you can not say this happened in the past.

2 Thessalonians 1
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Yes....I surely *can* say it happened in the past....when Jerusalem (and the temple) was destroyed. Jesus of Nazareth was glorified as more than "just another prophet".


Verse 6 opens with a promise. God “will pay back trouble to those who trouble” His people. 2 Thessalonians is believed to have been written around A.D. 51 or 52. Therefore, the “trouble” or persecution mentioned in vs. 6-7 is the first century persecution of Christians by their Jewish brethren mentioned often in the New Testament and in the Book of Acts (Acts 8:1-3, 12:1-4 and 26:10). Eusebius also mentions this persecution:

First they [the Jews] stoned Stephen to death; then James the son of Zebedee and the brother of John was beheaded; and finally James, the first after our Saviour’s Ascension to be raised to the bishop’s throne there, lost his life in the way described, while the remaining apostles, in constant danger from murderous plots, were driven out of Judaea.~The History of the Church 3.5."
 
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mkgal1

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mkgal1

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No.
Pilate didn't even want to crucify Jesus.
Pilate found no fault in Jesus, wanted to release Him.
Pilate washed his hands of the whole thing.
Pilate would have released Barabbas, but the Jews would not have that.
Something I just found related to this.....what I thought was insightful (it's long...but I didn't want to leave out any of this). This is all quoted, but if you want the "short version" I made that in red text:

Now Christ was also “the Son of David”, that is, a descendant of the old royal dynastic line of Israel; He came to restore that line and make it eternal. For, as the Archangel Gabriel said to the Virgin at the Annunciation: “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His Kingdom there will be no end” (Luke 1.32-33).​


What kind of Kingdom was meant here, and what kind of kingdom did the Jews have in mind for themselves?​


William Barclay writes: “Throughout all their existence, the Jews never forgot that they were in a very special sense God's chosen people. Because of that, they naturally looked to a very special place in the world. In the early days, they looked forward to achieving that position by what we might call natural means. They always regarded the greatest days in their history as the days of David; and they dreamed of a day when there would arise another king of David's line, a king who would make them great in righteousness and in power (Isaiah 9:7, 11:1; Jeremiah 22:4, 23:5, 30:9).


“But as time went on, it came to be pitilessly clear that this dreamed-of greatness would never be achieved by natural means. The ten tribes had been carried off to Assyria and lost forever. The Babylonians conquered Jerusalem and carried the Jews away captive. Then came the Persians as their masters; then the Greeks; then the Romans. So far from knowing anything like dominion, for centuries the Jews never even knew what it was to be completely free and independent.​


“So another line of thought grew up. It is true that the idea of a great king of David's line never entirely vanished and was always intertwined in some way with their thought; but more and more they began to dream of a day when God would intervene in history and achieve by supernatural means that which natural means could never achieve. They looked for divine power to do what human power was helpless to do.​


“In between the Testaments were written a whole flood of books which were dreams and forecasts of this new age and the intervention of God. As a class, they are called Apocalypses. The word literally means unveilings. These books were meant to be unveilings of the future. It is to them that we must turn to find out what the Jews believed in the time of Jesus about the Messiah and the work of the Messiah and the new age. It is against their dreams that we must set the dream of Jesus.​


“In these books, certain basic ideas occur. We follow here the classification of these ideas given by Emil Schuerer, who wrote A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ.​


“(1) Before the Messiah came, there would be a time of terrible tribulation. There would be a messianic travail. It would be the birth-pangs of a new world. Every conceivable terror would burst upon the world; every standard of honour and decency would be torn down; the world would become a physical and moral chaos.... The time which preceded the coming of the Messiah was to be a time when the world was torn in pieces and every bond relaxed. The physical and the moral order would collapse.​


“(2) Into this chaos there would come Elijah as the forerunner and herald of the Messiah. He was to heal the breaches and bring order into the chaos to prepare the way for the Messiah. In particular he was to mend disputes....


“(3) Then there would enter the Messiah.... Sometimes the Messiah was thought of as a king of David's line, but more often he was thought of as a great, superhuman figure crashing into history to remake the world and in the end to vindicate God's people.


“(4) The nations would ally themselves and gather themselves together against the champion of God....


“(5) The result would be the total destruction of these hostile powers. The Jewish philosopher Philo said that the Messiah would 'take the field and make war and destroy great and populous nations'.... The Messiah will be the most destructive conqueror in history, smashing his enemies into utter extinction.


“(6) There would follow the renovation of Jerusalem. Sometimes this was thought of as the purification of the existing city. More often it was thought of as the coming down of the new Jerusalem from heaven....


“(7) The Jews who were dispersed all over the world would be gathered into the city of the new Jerusalem.... It is easy to see how Jewish this new world was to be. The nationalistic element is dominant all the time.


“(8) Palestine would be the centre of the world and the rest of the world subject to it. All the nations would be subdued. Sometimes it was thought of as a peaceful subjugation.... More often, the fate of the Gentiles was utter destruction at which Israel would exult and rejoice.... It was a grim picture. Israel would rejoice to see her enemies broken and in hell. Even the dead Israelites were to be raised up to share in the new world.


“(9) Finally, there would come the new age of peace and goodness which would last forever.


“These are the messianic ideas which were in people's minds when Jesus came…”[1]


Christ by no means rejected all of these apocalyptic ideas. After all, several of them were grounded in the God-inspired Scriptures. But He rejected their cruelty, their national ambition, and their anti-Gentilism.


He was Himself both the Son of God, one of the Holy Trinity, and the Messiah, the Son of David. But He came as the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53, not the ferocious war-lord of the apocalypses. And He came to restore Israel, not as a State ruling over all the nations by the power of the sword, but as the kernel of the Universal Church ruling by the power of the Spirit. His Kingdom was not of this world; it was the inner Kingdom of Grace.


The question was: would the Jews accept Him as the Messiah, as the true King of Israel, together with the spiritual, not the nationalist image of Messiahship? On this would depend the salvation of both the people and their State… Tragically, in their great majority the Jews failed this test. They both crucified their True King and God, and said to Pilate: "We have no other king but Caesar" (John 19.15). At that moment they became no different spiritually from the other pagan peoples; for, like the pagans, they had come to recognize a mere man, the Roman emperor, as higher than God Himself. As St. John Chrysostom writes: “Here they declined the Kingdom of Christ and called to themselves that of Caesar.”[2]


What made this apostasy worse was the fact that they were not compelled to it by any despotic decree. Pilate not only did not demand this recognition of Caesar from them, but had said of Christ – “Behold your king” (John 19.14), and had then ordered the sign, “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews”, to be nailed above the cross. The Jews had in effect carried out both a democratic revolution against their True King, and, at the same time, a despotic obeisance to a false god-king.


Thus did the City of God on earth become the City of Man - and the stronghold of Satan: “How has the faithful city become a harlot! It was full of justice, righteousness lodged in it, but now murderers” (Isaiah1.21). Thus did the original sin committed under Saul, when the people of God sought a king who would rule them "like all the nations", reap its final wages in their submission to "the god of this world”.



But the positive result was that the Kingdom, with all its ineffable and inestimable benefits, were passed to other peoples. As the Lord Himself had prophesied: “The Kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits thereof” (Matthew 21.43). Or as St. Paul put it: “What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect [from the Gentiles] have obtained it, and the rest were blinded” (Romans 11.7). Thus all the other peoples of the world were now given the opportunity of joining God’s Kingdom in the Church, “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6.16).


But for the Jews who rejected Him it was another matter. After their killing of Christ – which was not only regicide, but also Deicide, an act unparalleled in evil in the history of the world – there came upon them the punishment prophesied by Christ: “great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be” (Matthew 24.21). “That on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation…” (Matthew 23.35-36). This prophecy was fulfilled in 66-70 AD, when the Jews, incited by the Zealots, rose up in armed rebellion against Rome. The Roman Emperors Titus and Vespasian crushed the rebellion, destroyed the Temple and killed very many of the Jews. The extent of the slaughter is a matter of controversy[3], but the depth of the horror and suffering is beyond dispute.~CHRIST, ISRAEL AND THE FALL OF JERUSALEM
 
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Hillsage

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I may not be able to read Greek, but even I can see that your conclusion is way off base.
I don't read Greek either. But I do read English, apparently better than you are, and I'd say you're problem is in 'that' department IMO. Just stick with the brief definition which I presented and you can see the very same things I bolded being repeated in your more lengthy definition which simply led you to....no where but an unsubstantiated disagreement. I'm sticking with my substantiated opinion.
When these people see God's glory, they will be overwhelmed and will bow there knees.
But they will not be repentant. If they were the scene in Revelation 20 would not occur.
Your unsubstantiated opinion, not ours.
As a matter of fact, your take on the Revelation is as off IMO as your take on Matt 24-25 which MKGAL1 is still trying to clear up. Your Revelation take is Futuristic, and there are 3 other major theological takes on the book of the Revelation.
 
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mkgal1

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I suppose those who say Christ already came the second time, have nothing to look forward to.
That's not my belief (that He's already come the second time).....but, likewise, I suppose those that misread references to "His coming in glory" (like in Matthew 25:31) as a future event are also missing out in sharing in His current era of victory and hope.

This quote from Anthony Hoekema articulates well my thoughts and beliefs (and optimism!):

------->All of history is moving toward a goal: the total redemption of the universe. History is not meaningless but meaningful. Though we are not always able to discern the meaning of each historical event, we know what the ultimate outcome of history will be. We eagerly look forward to the new earth as part of a renewed universe in which God’s good creation will realize finally and totally the purpose for which he called it into existence: the glorification of his name.

All this implies that regarding world history, amillennialists adopt a position of sober or realistic optimism. Belief in the present rule of Christ, in the presence of God’s kingdom and in the movement of history toward its goal is accompanied by a realistic recognition of the presence of sin in this world and of the growing development of the kingdom of evil. Amillennial eschatology looks for a culmination of apostasy and tribulation in the final emergence of a personal Antichrist before Christ comes again. Amillennialists do not expect to see the perfect society realized during this present age.

Yet, since we know that the victory of Christ over evil was decisive and that Christ is now on the throne, the dominant mood of amillennial eschatology is optimism — Christian optimism. This means that we view no world crisis as totally beyond help and no social trend as absolutely irreversible. It means that we live in hope — a hope that is built on faith and that expresses itself in love.~"Amillennialism: A Brief Sketch of Amillennial Eschatology" by Anthony Hoekema
 
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mkgal1

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To clarify:

From Benjamin L. Gladd's and Matthew S. Harmon's publication "Making All Things New":

This is not your ordinary book on eschatology. Usually when people hear that term, they think of the events connected to the future return of Jesus Christ and the very end of history. As a result, topics such as the rapture, the tribulation, and the millennium take center stage. Such an approach is often reinforced by systematic theology textbooks, which usually treat eschatology as a separate chapter focusing on these issues. But we believe that this understanding of eschatology is too narrow when it comes to what the Bible teaches.

Our English term “eschatology” comes from two Greek words: eschatos (“last”) and logos (“word”). So, eschatology is the study of the “last things.” But as we will try to demonstrate, eschatology is not limited to the events connected to the return of Jesus Christ. According to the NT, the life, ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus have ushered in the “latter days,” as promised in the OT. Therefore, the “latter days” encompass the entire time period between the first and second comings of Christ. As a result, eschatology is not limited to the “last chapter” of what God will do in this world but rather frames all that God has done and will do in Jesus Christ.

Among biblical scholars and theologians this understanding has come to be known as “inaugurated eschatology.” The word “inaugurated” reflects the observation that while the latter-day new-creational kingdom has begun with the work of Jesus, it has not yet been consummated in all its fullness. Another way of referring to this phenomenon is to use the expression “already–not yet.” God’s kingdom has already found its initial fulfillment in and through Jesus Christ, the outpouring of the Spirit, and the formation of the eschatological people of God. But the kingdom has not yet been realized in all its fullness. Stated differently, God’s promises have found their initial fulfillment while still awaiting their complete and final consummation.~https://www.wtsbooks.com/common/pdf_links/9780801049606.pdf
 
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mkgal1

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Some key phrases that are typically missed (that point to the inauguration of God's kin-dom as a point in *history*....not a future event for us):

I promise you some of those standing here will not die before they see the Son of Man coming with his kingdom. ~Matthew 16:28

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.~Matthew 24:34


"You have said it yourself," Jesus answered. "But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.~Matthew 26:64


"At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.~Mark 13:26
 
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mkgal1

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Doug Melven said:
When these people see God's glory, they will be overwhelmed and will bow there knees.
But they will not be repentant. If they were the scene in Revelation 20 would not occur.
First off....I'd like to say that your comments are leading me to some interesting reading (and I'm genuinely thankful for this discussion).

About Revelation 20 (something I'd never really given much devotion towards in my reading). I found this, from Sam Storms (keep in mind that he is a historicist, and not a preterist):

-------->I often hear people say that they have embraced the Amillennial view of biblical eschatology “in spite of” what they read in Revelation 20. I want to go on record in saying that I have embraced Amillennialism precisely “because of” Revelation 20. I find the evidence from this passage to be altogether persuasive in telling me that the “millennial” reign of the saints is a reference to the experience of co-regency on the part of those believers who are now in the intermediate state with Christ. Thus, the millennium is a current phenomenon, in heaven, spanning the age between the two advents of Jesus Christ. Here are ten reasons why.....(you can read the rest here, if interested: I am an Amillennialist "because of" Revelation 20)
 
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mkgal1

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And a bit more:


Kenneth Gentry has this to say on the believer’s present status in God’s kingdom (pp. 84-85):

[God’s] kingdom does not await some future, visible coming (Luke 17:20-21; Col. 1:13). Consequently, Christ claimed to be king while on earth (John 12:12-15; 18:36-37), and God enthroned Him as King following His resurrection and ascension (Acts 2:30-36). Since His resurrection Christ has “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matt. 28:18), for He is at the right hand of God, ruling over His kingdom (Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69; Acts 2:33; 5:31; 7:55-56; Rom. 8:34; 14:11; Eph. 1:20-23; Col. 1:18; 3:1; Heb. 1:3, 13; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; I Peter 3:22; Rev. 17:14; 19:16). As a result, first-century Christians proclaimed Him King (Matt. 2:2; Acts 17:7; Rev. 1:5), and new converts entered His kingdom (John 3:3; Col. 1:12-13; I Thess. 2:12).

The other reality involves our present rule with Him in His kingdom. John tells the seven churches of the first century that Christ “has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve His God and Father” (Rev. 1:6). This present priestly kingship is exactly what Revelation 20 relates of the millennial kingdom: “They will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years” (20:6).

Paul mentions our present rule as well: “And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6; cf. 1:3; Col. 3:1-4). Whatever surprised responses might arise against this viewpoint, the fact remains: The Bible teaches we are presently “seated with Him.”~Revelation 20: Amillennial Viewpoint (Part 2)
 
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Ronald

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I've recently been informed that I am a "preterist"......so I guess that's true (why, when I read that, did I imagine you with an outstretched arm and finger pointing towards me, I wonder :scratch:).

Yes....it was a multi-part question...but you're dividing the questions differently than what I understand. "The coming of Christ" is not the same thing as His second coming (that "coming in the clouds" in Matt 24 is His coming from earth to heaven). The "end of the age" was the end of the Jewish age/Old Covenant and the inauguration of the Kingdom of God.
No one is pointing fingers, it's just matter of fact statement - meaning, I know what you believe in - I know also we are brothers who believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior and disagree.
When Jesus ascended, the angels asked, Why do you stare at Him ... He will return in like manner. He will physically return and stand on the Mt. Of Olives and will physically reign. in His Earthy Kingdom for 1000 years.
Its OK, He will fill you in with the details when He gets here - see you then. Oh and you will be receiving an eternal body in case you're is wearing out - I'm ready for that. :amen:
 
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Ronald

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Jerusalem isn't "small" in significance within God's kingdom, though. The offense against them is greater than I can imagine against God personally, in the rejection and murder of their Messiah.


No....I agree with you on this.......this is still to come. It's a process ....a trajectory towards what was once in the Garden of Eden towards what will be again......

And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more nor mourning nor crying nor pain; they will be no more, because the former things have passed away."~Revelation 21:4

In that day the wolf and the lamb will live together; the leopard will lie down with the baby goat. The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion, and a little child will lead them all.~Isaiah 11:6

The Temple became obsolete when Jesus died. That was the plan, His death. His sacrifice was necessary and yes Jerusalem did suffer and was destroyed, but the doorway to salvation was open to the world.
Israel will be put through the fire, but a remnant will be saved. Their veils will be lifted and they will see their Messiah (Romans 11)
 
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mkgal1

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Its OK, He will fill you in with the details when He gets here - see you then
I think you've missed my posts that state that I'm not in disagreement of His second coming (just that the "coming" mentioned in Matthew is His second coming). That is where, I believe, He was seated on His throne.
 
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MelG11

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What I have learned through reading the Bible is that there are two people in this world believers and non believers. You either believe in Christ and have 100% faith and trust for all that he has done for you or you don’t. If you believe you are saved if you do not believe you are not saved... It’s that simple! God didn’t want salvation to be complicated because he wants it for everyone! Also if you think about it! If you spent your life here on earth separated from the Lord and you didn’t want anything to do with him here why would he force you to spend eternity with him in Heaven? It’s a choice everyone chooses freely you either believe and spend eternity with the lord or you don’t and you spend eternity separated from him. In my opinion eternal separation from the Lord is hell in itself however you want to define it.
 
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rjs330

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You sound like you think that the sins unbelievers commit (including those who've never heard the name Jesus) are less grievous to God than the sin you still commit. Don't think more highly of their sin than you ought, and don't think more lowly of yours than you should either.


No, God would not be mocked 'according to scripture' He would be glorified;

PHI 2:10 that AT the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Greek context of "AT/en" the name of Jesus is not talking about saying the name because you have been beaten into submission and 'that' forced confession brings glory to God. That word means you have submitted relationally to Jesus and are resting in Him.

1722 en: position (in place, time or state), and (by impl.) instrumentality (medically or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest; "in," at, (up-) on, by, etc.



I just proved scripturally above you're wrong. Prove your opinion with scripture or just realize we disagree, for a biblical reason and not just your indoctrinated pre dispositional opinion.

Read the scriptures I quoted in post 231 and post 232. Then there is this one.

God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all the ungodly behavior and the injustice of human beings who silence the truth with injustice.This is because what is known about God should be plain to them because God made it plain to them.Ever since the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualities—God’s eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through the things God has made. So humans are without excuse.Although they knew God, they didn’t honor God as God or thank him. Instead, their reasoning became pointless, and their foolish hearts were darkened.While they were claiming to be wise, they made fools of themselves.They exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images that look like mortal humans: birds, animals, and reptiles.So God abandoned them to their hearts’ desires, which led to the moral corruption of degrading their own bodies with each other.They traded God’s truth for a lie, and they worshipped and served the creation instead of the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.That’s why God abandoned them to degrading lust. Their females traded natural sexual relations for unnatural sexual relations.Also, in the same way, the males traded natural sexual relations with females, and burned with lust for each other. Males performed shameful actions with males, and they were paid back with the penalty they deserved for their mistake in their own bodies.Since they didn’t think it was worthwhile to acknowledge God, God abandoned them to a defective mind to do inappropriate things.So they were filled with all injustice, wicked behavior, greed, and evil behavior. They are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, deception, and malice. They are gossips,they slander people, and they hate God. They are rude and proud, and they brag. They invent ways to be evil, and they are disobedient to their parents.They are without understanding, disloyal, without affection, and without mercy.Though they know God’s decision that those who persist in such practices deserve death, they not only keep doing these things but also approve others who practice them. - Romans 1:18-32 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 1:18-32 - Common English Bible


Look, the day is coming, burning like an oven. All the arrogant ones and all those doing evil will become straw. The coming day will burn them, says the Lord of heavenly forces, leaving them neither root nor branch.But the sun of righteousness will rise on those revering my name; healing will be in its wings so that you will go forth and jump about like calves in the stall.You will crush the wicked; they will be like dust beneath the soles of your feet on the day that I am preparing, says the Lord of heavenly forces.Remember the Instruction from Moses, my servant, to whom I gave Instruction and rules for all Israel at Horeb.Look, I am sending Elijah the prophet to you, before the great and terrifying day of the Lord arrives.Turn the hearts of the parents to the children and the hearts of the children to their parents. Otherwise, I will come and strike the land with a curse. - Malachi 4:1-6 Bible Gateway passage: Malachi 4 - Common English Bible

God also says this.

Then the one seated on the throne said, “Look! I’m making all things new.” He also said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”Then he said to me, “All is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will freely give water from the life-giving spring.Those who emerge victorious will inherit these things. I will be their God, and they will be my sons and daughters.But for the cowardly, the faithless, the vile, the murderers, those who commit sexual immorality, those who use drugs and cast spells, the idolaters and all liars—their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.” - Revelation 21:5-8 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:5-8 - Common English Bible

So you see I can prove my position with actual scriptures that address the issue at hand. The Philippians scripture has nothing to do with reward or punishment. It has to do with Christ's supremacy over all things. In the end all will bow before Christ and acknowledge him. They may have rejected him in life, but will be forced to acknowledge his lordship.

It's not an opinion. It's scripture. I am crucified with Christ nevertheless I live yet not I, but Christ liveth in me. And the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith if the sin of God who loved me and gave himself for me.

No I am not wicked. Not any longer as long as I live for Christ and do not walk in sinfulness. Do I sin? Of course, but I do not live in sin.
 
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Read the scriptures I quoted in post 231 and post 232. Then there is this one.

God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all the ungodly behavior and the injustice of human beings who silence the truth with injustice.This is because what is known about God should be plain to them because God made it plain to them.Ever since the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualities—God’s eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through the things God has made. So humans are without excuse.Although they knew God, they didn’t honor God as God or thank him. Instead, their reasoning became pointless, and their foolish hearts were darkened.While they were claiming to be wise, they made fools of themselves.They exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images that look like mortal humans: birds, animals, and reptiles.So God abandoned them to their hearts’ desires, which led to the moral corruption of degrading their own bodies with each other.They traded God’s truth for a lie, and they worshipped and served the creation instead of the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.That’s why God abandoned them to degrading lust. Their females traded natural sexual relations for unnatural sexual relations.Also, in the same way, the males traded natural sexual relations with females, and burned with lust for each other. Males performed shameful actions with males, and they were paid back with the penalty they deserved for their mistake in their own bodies.Since they didn’t think it was worthwhile to acknowledge God, God abandoned them to a defective mind to do inappropriate things.So they were filled with all injustice, wicked behavior, greed, and evil behavior. They are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, deception, and malice. They are gossips,they slander people, and they hate God. They are rude and proud, and they brag. They invent ways to be evil, and they are disobedient to their parents.They are without understanding, disloyal, without affection, and without mercy.Though they know God’s decision that those who persist in such practices deserve death, they not only keep doing these things but also approve others who practice them. - Romans 1:18-32 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 1:18-32 - Common English Bible


Look, the day is coming, burning like an oven. All the arrogant ones and all those doing evil will become straw. The coming day will burn them, says the Lord of heavenly forces, leaving them neither root nor branch.But the sun of righteousness will rise on those revering my name; healing will be in its wings so that you will go forth and jump about like calves in the stall.You will crush the wicked; they will be like dust beneath the soles of your feet on the day that I am preparing, says the Lord of heavenly forces.Remember the Instruction from Moses, my servant, to whom I gave Instruction and rules for all Israel at Horeb.Look, I am sending Elijah the prophet to you, before the great and terrifying day of the Lord arrives.Turn the hearts of the parents to the children and the hearts of the children to their parents. Otherwise, I will come and strike the land with a curse. - Malachi 4:1-6 Bible Gateway passage: Malachi 4 - Common English Bible

God also says this.

Then the one seated on the throne said, “Look! I’m making all things new.” He also said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”Then he said to me, “All is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will freely give water from the life-giving spring.Those who emerge victorious will inherit these things. I will be their God, and they will be my sons and daughters.But for the cowardly, the faithless, the vile, the murderers, those who commit sexual immorality, those who use drugs and cast spells, the idolaters and all liars—their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.” - Revelation 21:5-8 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:5-8 - Common English Bible

So you see I can prove my position with actual scriptures that address the issue at hand. The Philippians scripture has nothing to do with reward or punishment. It has to do with Christ's supremacy over all things. In the end all will bow before Christ and acknowledge him. They may have rejected him in life, but will be forced to acknowledge his lordship.

It's not an opinion. It's scripture. I am crucified with Christ nevertheless I live yet not I, but Christ liveth in me. And the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith if the sin of God who loved me and gave himself for me.

No I am not wicked. Not any longer as long as I live for Christ and do not walk in sinfulness. Do I sin? Of course, but I do not live in sin.
All scriptures that have been dealt with by so many. But if you are bound to believe what you do, all I can say is, I understand, I too used to believe like you do.
 
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