For all that fear hell

[KrisPablos]

I know it is written that God punishes but as I found God, Jesus Christ i can see that He can't do that. The one who punishes is the devil. It's when you feel something that is sweet, pleasurable and you commit your soul to that something and start to go on that road but realize, later, on your surprise, that you are infront of a dead end . The devil or, in psychological terms can be called "The sadist within", is the one who enjoys to see you suffer.
So when you go on that road God, Jesus Christ won't punish you but the devil.

The good news is that God, Jesus Christ is much, much stronger than the devil. It can't even be compared. So following His path will make the devil and all of his efforts pointless and the devil will fear you.


Thank you God for letting me see this and for letting me know how great you are. I love you more than anything in the world.

 

[joinfree]

I know it is written that God punishes but as I found God, Jesus Christ i can see that He can't do that. The one who punishes is the devil. It's when you feel something that is sweet, pleasurable and you commit your soul to that something and start to go on that road but realize, later, on your surprise, that you are infront of a dead end . The devil or, in psychological terms can be called "The sadist within", is the one who enjoys to see you suffer.
So when you go on that road God, Jesus Christ won't punish you but the devil.

The good news is that God, Jesus Christ is much, much stronger than the devil. It can't even be compared. So following His path will make the devil and all of his efforts pointless and the devil will fear you.


Thank you God for letting me see this and for letting me know how great you are. I love you more than anything in the world.

The father punishes us, because He loves. The devil does not punish, because the devil murders.

 

[planet_joe]

I know it is written that God punishes but as I found God, Jesus Christ i can see that He can't do that. The one who punishes is the devil. It's when you feel something that is sweet, pleasurable and you commit your soul to that something and start to go on that road but realize, later, on your surprise, that you are infront of a dead end . The devil or, in psychological terms can be called "The sadist within", is the one who enjoys to see you suffer.
So when you go on that road God, Jesus Christ won't punish you but the devil.

The good news is that God, Jesus Christ is much, much stronger than the devil. It can't even be compared. So following His path will make the devil and all of his efforts pointless and the devil will fear you.


Thank you God for letting me see this and for letting me know how great you are. I love you more than anything in the world.

Punishment isn't for Christians, because Jesus Christ is punished on their behalf instead.

The flip-side is also true. Jesus Christ is also the perfect Christian (so to speak) on your behalf too. So your salvation isn't up to you being a good Christian either.

 

[thesunisout]

I know it is written that God punishes but as I found God, Jesus Christ i can see that He can't do that. The one who punishes is the devil. It's when you feel something that is sweet, pleasurable and you commit your soul to that something and start to go on that road but realize, later, on your surprise, that you are infront of a dead end . The devil or, in psychological terms can be called "The sadist within", is the one who enjoys to see you suffer.
So when you go on that road God, Jesus Christ won't punish you but the devil.

The good news is that God, Jesus Christ is much, much stronger than the devil. It can't even be compared. So following His path will make the devil and all of his efforts pointless and the devil will fear you.


Thank you God for letting me see this and for letting me know how great you are. I love you more than anything in the world.

God didn't reveal this to you, my friend, because it contradicts His word. The bible tells us that God created hell for the devil and his angels. Not as a playground, but where they will all be eternally punished. Anyone who wants to follow the devil will end up there with him.

 

[mkgal1]

I know it is written that God punishes

------> There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear expects punishment. The person who is afraid has not been made perfect in love.~1st John 4:18

 

[Hillsage]

The bible tells us that God created hell for the devil and his angels.

Then 'your' omnicsient God must have had brain lapse the day he created hell for the devil and his angels. He forgot that MOST of the people that Jesus died for were going to be there with the devil and his angels too. According to your POV anyway.

MAT 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Not as a playground, but where they will all be eternally punished. Anyone who wants to follow the devil will end up there with him.

OR, just maybe that fire is purgative and purifies. Maybe the fire of the devil in your life purges you of your sinful flesh so your spirit will be saved. Maybe that firey trial from the devil teaches you not to blaspheme.

1CO 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1TI 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

And, for the record, there can't really even be such thing as ETERNAL PUNISHMENT. There can only be ETERNAL PUNISHING...or purposeless endless torture for eternity. According to the nominal church belief system anyway. MY 'God view' seesa better plan than that.

 

[thesunisout]

And, for the record, there can't really even be such thing as ETERNAL PUNISHMENT. There can only be ETERNAL PUNISHING...or purposeless endless torture for eternity. According to the nominal church belief system anyway. MY 'God view' seesa better plan than that.

Your view of God isn't based on the scripture, which makes it clear that hell is eternal, conscious torment. We can't just invent our own ideas about God because they make us feel good. Our God is love, but He is also a God of wrath who will by no means clear the guilty.

 

[Hillsage]

Your view of God isn't based on the scripture, which makes it clear that hell is eternal, conscious torment. We can't just invent our own ideas about God because they make us feel good.

It most certainly is based upon scripture. Just not the milk toast translations that the nominal church goers don't know about, let alone read. Do you realize that there are 30 translations of the bible which don't even have the word "HELL" in them? And it's because they know three different Greek words can't be the same thing. The Greek scripture isn't that redundantly dumb. You just read translations that the money making publishers always control. Translations which simply have many 'grave' errors in them. And to get hired to translate for these publishers, you have to sign a 'doctrinal agreement statement' which is more important than your Greek scholastic acumen. And so, like you, the nominal church thinks 'they have the truth' and we don't.

JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

Our God is love, but He is also a God of wrath who will by no means clear the guilty.

Did you know that the word "wrath" is also interpreted as 'passion'? And yes the passion of God is for sinners but against sin. That's why Jesus HIMSELF said to SINNERS "neither do I condemn you". Jesus understood the difference. Just like the church today, condemns as the pharisees of old. They never understood and neither does the nominal church of today. God will always be about 'dealing with sin' as He works out His plan of salvation for all of his beloved creation.

 

[mkgal1]

Your view of God isn't based on the scripture, which makes it clear that hell is eternal, conscious torment. We can't just invent our own ideas about God because they make us feel good. Our God is love, but He is also a God of wrath who will by no means clear the guilty.

A Dante's Inferno view actually *is* an invention that's separate from the Bible....and that wasn't even written until around 1306 CE. The Western Schism was around that same time. Could it be that the two are connected, maybe? Fear is an excellent way to control people.

You may want to check out the documentary Hellbound and read the book Inventing Hell (by Jon Sweeney) to see how this version of hell has been developed (and how we impose these ideas onto the biblical text).

----->In his book, Inventing Hell, Jon Sweeney points out that our Christian notion of hell largely comes from several unfortunate metaphors in Matthew’s Gospel. Hell is not found in the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible. It’s not found in the Gospel of John or in Paul’s letters. The words Sheol and Gehenna are used in Matthew, but they have nothing to do with our later medieval notion of eternal punishment. Sheol is simply the place of the dead, a sort of limbo place where humans await the final judgment when God will finally win. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians, in the end “God will be all in all” (15:28). Gehenna was both the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem—the Valley of Hinnom—and an early Jewish metaphor for evil (Isaiah 66:24). The idea of hell as we most commonly view it came much more from Dante’s Divine Comedy than the Bible. Dante’s Purgatorio and Inferno are brilliant Italian poetry, but horrible Christian theology. Dante’s view of God is largely nonbiblical; however, there are some great insights in the Paradiso.~Fr Richard Rohr https://cac.org/a-toxic-image-of-god-2016-01-28/

Once you strip away this lens of a toxic and vengeful God, you may then be able to see that the message of the Bible comes down to the victory of God’s love that will overcome whatever sin and hardness of heart that exists towards God and that because of this, eventually, all people will find their way towards a loving relationship with God in eternity.

"In like manner therefore, because of the offense of the one there was a guilty verdict to all the children of men, in the same way, because of the righteousness of The One there shall be the victory for Life to all the children of men."~Romans 5:18 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)​

 

[mkgal1]

Our God is love, but He is also a God of wrath who will by no means clear the guilty.

I can agree with that (although I imagine we understand "wrath" differently). Isn't that how He described Himself in Exodus 34? He also is recorded there as saying,

"I am slow to anger and filled with unfailing love and faithfulness."

He doesn't "clear" the guilty (which, ironically, is the theology a lot of people believe....the only requirement being that they "confess")....instead, what I believe is, He transforms the guilty to where they are no longer guilty.

 

[thesunisout]

It most certainly is based upon scripture. Just not the milk toast translations that the nominal church goers don't know about, let alone read. Do you realize that there are 30 translations of the bible which don't even have the word "HELL" in them? And it's because they know three different Greek words can't be the same thing. The Greek scripture isn't that redundantly dumb. You just read translations that the money making publishers always control. Translations which simply have many 'grave' errors in them. And to get hired to translate for these publishers, you have to sign a 'doctrinal agreement statement' which is more important than your Greek scholastic acumen. And so, like you, the nominal church thinks 'they have the truth' and we don't.

I'm sure there are many translations that don't have the word hell in them, just as they are writing translations making God gender neutral. There will be a translation for every belief that people want to have about God. Yet God is who He is, and no amount of translating to suit our fleshly ideas about God will change that.

I'm also not sure who "we" is, or why you think I represent the "nominal" church.

JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

Did you know that the word "wrath" is also interpreted as 'passion'? And yes the passion of God is for sinners but against sin. That's why Jesus HIMSELF said to SINNERS "neither do I condemn you". Jesus understood the difference. Just like the church today condemns like the pharisees of old. They never understood and neither the nominal church of today. God will always be about 'dealing with sin' as He works out His plan of salvation for all of his beloved creation.

There is a lot in Jeremiah that you seemed to have missed:

Jeremiah 19:7-9

‘In this place I will ruin the plans of Judah and Jerusalem. I will make them fall by the sword before their enemies, at the hands of those who want to kill them, and I will give their carcasses as food to the birds and the wild animals. 8I will devastate this city and make it an object of horror and scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff because of all its wounds. 9I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh because their enemies will press the siege so hard against them to destroy them

Do you think this verse indicates Gods passion or wrath towards sinners?

How about in this passage?

Luke 13:1-5

At that time, some of those present told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2To this He replied, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered this fate? 3No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam collapsed on them: Do you think that they were more sinful than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish

 

[thesunisout]

----->In his book, Inventing Hell, Jon Sweeney points out that our Christian notion of hell largely comes from several unfortunate metaphors in Matthew’s Gospel. Hell is not found in the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible. It’s not found in the Gospel of John or in Paul’s letters. The words Sheol and Gehenna are used in Matthew, but they have nothing to do with our later medieval notion of eternal punishment.

Those "unfortunate metaphors" were inspired by the Holy Spirit because hell is a real place and God gives us many serious warnings about it. You don't just get to pick and choose what you believe in scripture, and write off what you don't like. You don't get to invent your own God, friend. He is who He is regardless of how you feel about it.

 

[thesunisout]

I can agree with that (although I imagine we understand "wrath" differently). Isn't that how He described Himself in Exodus 34? He also is recorded there as saying,

"I am slow to anger and filled with unfailing love and faithfulness."

He doesn't "clear" the guilty (which, ironically, is what the theology of a lot of people believe....the only requirement being that they "confess")....instead, what I believe is, He transforms the guilty to where they are no longer guilty.

So you believe God the Father sent Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins so that people that reject Him can be saved?

 

[mkgal1]

Those "unfortunate metaphors" were inspired by the Holy Spirit because hell is a real place and God gives us many serious warnings about it. You don't just get to pick and choose what you believe in scripture, and write off what you don't like. You don't get to invent your own God, friend. He is who He is regardless of how you feel about it.

I think you're missing that you just may be the one that's picking and choosing (and following the invention of a Dante's Inferno afterlife).

Metaphors don't depict a literal reality....if so, then God would literally be a mother hen....a mama bear...a rock that gives birth...a nursing mother....etc.

So you believe God the Father sent Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins so that people that reject Him can be saved?

Not quite in those words. More that He came to demonstrate His love for us while we were still sinners, just like the biblical text says in Romans 5. His love is unfailing.....all won't reject Him forever. Love wins out in the end. I believe in a victorious God.....not one that died to save a small percentage of His own creation, especially when it's recorded that He desires that NONE should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance (2nd Peter 3:9). That also seems to me to be a promise....
​

"The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance."~2nd Peter 3:9​

It doesn't seem to me like much of a victorious and omnipotent God that breaks His promise and doesn't fulfill His desire. But that's just my opinion.

 

[mkgal1]

...because hell is a real place and God gives us many serious warnings about it.

If this were the true message God was desiring for us to understand.....then can you show me one recorded speech from the Bible of Jesus' warning people of an eternal damnation of torment?

Instead....what I see in Scripture is the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus is instructing us to forgive and love our enemies. It seems like that's a hypocritical God that would instruct His followers to love and forgive their enemies while He torments His enemies for eternity. I see in the Scripture that Jesus wasn't fond of hypocrites....that would emphasize Him even more to be a hypocrite Himself. I'm also not fond of hypocrites....so I couldn't follow a God like that.

 

[Hillsage]

I'm sure there are many translations that don't have the word hell in them, just as they are writing translations making God gender neutral. There will be a translation for every belief that people want to have about God. Yet God is who He is, and no amount of translating to suit our fleshly ideas about God will change that.

Agreed. Now go back to my first post and refute my position which I based upon quoting a translation you do agree with.

I'm also not sure who "we" is, or why you think I represent the "nominal" church.

For me, anyone who believes the God I serve is worse than Hitler with an eternal Auschwitz for the overwhelming majority of His beloved creation, qualifies one for the 'nominal' church. And I am sure you've already proven, you qualify IMO.

There is a lot in Jeremiah that you seemed to have missed:

I actually refuted both your Jeremiah verses then deleted them. I'm not following your bunny trails to distraction. You refute my application of 8:8.. There isn't a false doctrine out there that doesn't have an "It is written"...to justify their theology. You just don't know 'that' includes your theology. What translations do you even use regularly, to study from?

 

[mkgal1]

I believe it was this thread where it was mentioned (I think by Hillsage) that the largest Christian denominations (RC and EO) accept the belief that we can hope that all will be saved (that means it's a nominal number--by comparison-- of those in denominations that don't accept the theology of apokostastis).

--------->In his book, Introduction to Christianity, Pope Benedict XVI explains his understanding of the curious phrase in the middle of the Apostles’ Creed: “[Jesus] descended into hell.” Benedict says that if Jesus went to hell, that means there is no hell—because Jesus and hell cannot coexist. Once Jesus got there, the whole game of punishment was over, as it were.

One of the most popular icons in the Eastern Orthodox Church shows Jesus with his legs spread, bridging the abyss of hell, pulling people out of the darkness. This is called “the icon of icons” in the East because it shows the highest level of contemplative perspective and the essence of the Good News.~https://cac.org/a-toxic-image-of-god-2016-01-28/

Christ’s Descent into Hades – icon explanation

• The icon depicts Hebrews 2:14, “that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil.” The power of the devil and death have been destroyed through the life-giving death of our Savior.
• The two figures whom Christ has grasped and is pulling from tombs are Adam and Eve, symbolizing that his victory redeems all mankind, even back to the beginning. It also foreshadows the general resurrection of the body before the Final Judgment.

 

[KrisPablos]

1. Master is called Body. You work for him and you won't separate from him even in his final hour. You are in hell.

2. Master is called God, Jesus Christ. You work for him, he is paying better then the body. You are in Heaven.

 

[Hillsage]

I believe it was this thread where it was mentioned (I think by Hillsage) that the largest Christian denominations (RC and EO) accept the belief that we can hope that all will be saved (that means it's a nominal number--by comparison-- of those in denominations that don't accept the theology of apokostastis).

Nope, wasn't me. I do remember Clement talking a lot about it. Very interesting.

--------->In his book, Introduction to Christianity, Pope Benedict XVI explains his understanding of the curious phrase in the middle of the Apostles’ Creed: “[Jesus] descended into hell.” Benedict says that if Jesus went to hell, that means there is no hell—because Jesus and hell cannot coexist. Once Jesus got there, the whole game of punishment was over, as it were.

While this may be true, I don't know that it's fair to say the whole denomination agrees. I was raised Roman Catholic and believe me....Momma believed it and the church confirmed it, back then.

One of the most popular icons in the Eastern Orthodox Church shows Jesus with his legs spread, bridging the abyss of hell, pulling people out of the darkness. This is called “the icon of icons” in the East because it shows the highest level of contemplative perspective and the essence of the Good News.~https://cac.org/a-toxic-image-of-god-2016-01-28/

Well, as you know, I personally believe Ultimate Reconciliation was the prevailing doctrine until Augustine, who was a Latin scholar but not a Greek scholar, made the declaration that the word for 'an age' in the Greek could also be translated as 'eternity', especially when it pertained to the Church's belief in 'eternal hell'. I'm of the persuasion, as many scholarly written translations support, that any word that can be translated as meaning 'a defined length of time' OR 'an endless amount of time' is no definition at all. That was purely an 'interpretation' based upon 'indoctrination'.

 

[mkgal1]

While this may be true, I don't know that it's fair to say the whole denomination agrees. I was raised Roman Catholic and believe me....Momma believed it and the church confirmed it, back then.

Right....it's something that there's no church doctrine related to (since there's division and Scripture is too ambiguous to clear up the division) and I think that the threat of ECT was especially helpful for the RC church to maintain control over the people (and to bring in $$, to be honest). What I found interesting was, universal reconciliation or the belief that we can "dare hope all men will be saved" was never overall condemned by the RC (that I know of). It was mostly the Franciscan order that held to the belief of Universal Reconciliation.

----->Just over twenty five years ago, Ignatius Press published the first English translation of a book by the Swiss theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar, a man esteemed by St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. Titled Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved? With a Short Discourse on Hell, the book combined two small works originally published in German in 1986 and 1987. The book remains one of the most discussed theology books of the twentieth century as well as one of the most controversial. ~Remembering Hans Urs von Balthasar's Important Book | Word on Fire

----->The new, post-Vatican II Catechism of the Catholic Church also gives us to hope that all will be saved.

• 1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: ‘Lord, let me never be parted from you.’ If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God ‘desires all men to be saved’ (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him ‘all things are possible’ (Mt 19:26).
  
  
• 1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for ‘all men to be saved.’~Does the Catholic Church oppose universalism?