• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Nested Hierarchy: Evidence for Evolution

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
All you have to do is look at the reaction creationists get, even on Christian forums. We're all treated like idiots because how dare we question almighty science!

No, not because you "dare to question science".

Question, is how science makes progress. It's an indespensible and hugely important aspect of science.

The problem however, is that you don't just "question". Instead, you argue against it and even call it a "lie". In essence, that wouldn't be a problem either IF it was well-motivated.

But that's the thing now, isn't it.... it's anything BUT well-motivated. In fact, it is only motivated by fundamentalist religious beliefs.

Worse still, I have yet to meet a creationist who calls "evolution a lie" and/or who spells it "evilution" and who actually also understands what the theory is all about.

I mean seriously... just about every thread on here on this topic... we end up having to explain the very basics of the basics of evolution theory.

Only to then see a couple days later that the same poster is again making the same false claims.

So, no, the problem is not that creationists "question science".

The problem rather is that they
- are dishonest
- don't listen
- demonize science (instead of just questioning it)
- motivate their "questioning" not with better science, but rather with fundamentalist religious beliefs
- don't actually understand the science that they are "questioning", in the first place.
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,452
805
72
Chicago
✟131,126.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Yeah, I am quite aware of that.

In another thread I am debating with a person who denies evolution, and insists "other reasons might exist beyond evolution". But he never wants to tell me how he thinks it happened if not by evolution.

If I have it wrong, I would want people to do more than taunt me for being wrong. I would expect them to answer when I ask them what they thought was right concerning how things came into existence, as well as present evidence for their view. Go figure.

Creation.
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,452
805
72
Chicago
✟131,126.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
No, not because you "dare to question science".

Question, is how science makes progress. It's an indespensible and hugely important aspect of science.

The problem however, is that you don't just "question". Instead, you argue against it and even call it a "lie". In essence, that wouldn't be a problem either IF it was well-motivated.

But that's the thing now, isn't it.... it's anything BUT well-motivated. In fact, it is only motivated by fundamentalist religious beliefs.

Worse still, I have yet to meet a creationist who calls "evolution a lie" and/or who spells it "evilution" and who actually also understands what the theory is all about.

I mean seriously... just about every thread on here on this topic... we end up having to explain the very basics of the basics of evolution theory.

Only to then see a couple days later that the same poster is again making the same false claims.

So, no, the problem is not that creationists "question science".

The problem rather is that they
- are dishonest
- don't listen
- demonize science (instead of just questioning it)
- motivate their "questioning" not with better science, but rather with fundamentalist religious beliefs
- don't actually understand the science that they are "questioning", in the first place.

- you did not explain things well enough.
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
- you did not explain things well enough.

Sorry, but such feigned ignorance is no excuse.
Plenty of people here have explained things in ridiculous detail and with the patience of angels that I don't even believe exist.

And if that isn't enough for you, there's a wealth of information out there in all kinds of science books with various degrees of "dificulty".

In this information age, you really have no excuse at all for not having a correct understanding of the established scientific theory you wish to argue against (because of your religious beliefs).
 
Upvote 0

xianghua

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2017
5,215
555
44
tel aviv
✟119,055.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
No, I said it right the first time. There are many exceptions.

Nested hierarchy means that statistically, the coordination of traits is far closer to a given nested hierarchy than the results we would expect by chance. You ignore that. You were given the site that lists the studies that did that analysis. You ignore that.

Science is based on probabilities. How do we know things are true in science? Because we do experiments, and determinine that, statistically, the result was not likely to have been by chance. That is how all science works. So when I show you that statistically the results of nested hierarchy studies show overwhelmingly that the overall pattern is not one of chance, that is using the essence of the scientific method.

When dealing with things like uncontrolled mutations, it is not enough to find a few that do not fit a certain pattern. If the data shows an overwhelming consistent pattern that almost certainly is not of chance, then it is not enough to point out a few points that are troublesome. You must show that statistically, these new data override the previous study that shows the nested relationships should be seen as real.

The only reasonable way to produce a real nested hierarchy is descent with modification ( or a deceptive God)·

at first i gave you one example and you said that its only a single trait. then i gave you example of about 24 traits and then you said its not sufficient too. so how many contradict traits we need to find to change your mind about nested hierarchy?
 
Upvote 0

Ronald

Exhortations
Site Supporter
Jul 30, 2004
4,620
981
southern
✟111,578.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Animals are amazing. They come in many varieties, and can be classified in groupings that can easily be seen. One of the first thing a child learns is the difference between a bird and a fish and a snake. These categories are unmistakable. How is it that life is aligned in such distinct categories?

You may think that all things can be similarly characterized, but that is not true. For instance, Carl Linnaeus, after establishing the modern groupings in plants and animals in his 1735 book, Systema Naturae, set out to do the same thing for rocks. Everyone could see that the groupings for animals were correct. But the rocks? He could not seem to find anything that people would agree on. Oh, one could classify rocks by mineral content, or depth of the formation, or apparent process in making the rocks, or apparent age, but each grouping leads to a completely different arrangement. He could find no grouping that all could agree was the correct one.

He had not had this problem with animals. Everybody could see that snakes, sharks, birds and mammals were distinctly different groupings. And one could subdivide the mammals into primates, rodents, carivora (cats, bears, dogs, etc.), and other groups. All could see those subgroups were real. And one can readily learn to tell which of those groups each mammal belongs to. The carnivora could be further divided into groups like Canidae (dogs, wolves and foxes), Felidae (cats), and Ursidae (bears). And even young children can readily tell if an animal should be grouped in a cat family, a dog family, or a bear family. The cat family can be further subdivided into over 40 different species such as lions, tigers, and bobcats. And the major groups like birds and mammals can be grouped together with all other animals with backbones to form the vertebrates, and the vertebrates can be combined with sea squirts and lampreys to form the chordates, and the chordates can be combined with starfish to make the Deuterosmoes, which are distinct from the larger group of animals called the Protosomes (insects, worms, etc.).

An interesting tidbit here is that the Protoosomes all eat with the hole that forms first in the embryo, using the second hole that develops to expel waste. But the Deuterosomes (us vertebrates and our kin) have it backwards, eating with what most animals would call the anus and sending waste out the end that most animals would call the mouth. So we find a clear distinction here. One group universally treats the first hole that forms as the mouth, and the other universally uses that same hole for expelling waste. This is no trivial difference. And again one wonders why it is that all sharks, birds, humans, and starfish would use one end to eat with, while all worms and insects walk in a direction that we would consider backwards, and eat with what we would consider the wrong end.

If one can examine the details, it is easy to distinguish between eating with the front end or eating with the back end. It is easy to distinguish having a backbone and not having a backbone. The groups are unambiguous.

We see multiple layers of groupings. Chimpanzees, for instance are part of a line that branches off in 40 different places from lines that lead to other living things. Starting with a group that includes all life, we find that all plants go their own way to make their own group, then later all the Amoebozoans, then the fungi, and on up through to the Protosomes which branch off to eat with what us dignified folks would consider to be the wrong end, and others branch off later to be distinct from the chordates, and some of the chordates branch off later without being vertebrates, and some vertebrates branch off without being descendents of the first tetrapods, and some of the tetrapod descendents branch off without becoming mammals, etc. in 40 different layers of branching, before the chimpanzees branch off from humans and then finally the bonobos to form their own group. And each of the groups that branches off forms its own tree of branching life forms.

This is what we refer to as a nested hierarchy. It is not simply sorting by size or some other characteristic. It is groups within groups within groups, all the way down. See figure below.

treeoflife.jpg


See also diagram at 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Phylogenetics .

Try doing that with rocks. You can't. Try doing that with chemical elements. You can't. Try doing it with mountains, planets, lakes, or streams. You can't. And again, the question is why?

Try doing that with vehicles. You can't. I hear the objection already. Many here have claimed that you can. They will probably respond to this post with a picture showing perhaps cars, light trucks and heavy trucks arranged in what looks like a nested hierarchy. But the arrangement is a simple arrangement based basically on one category, hauling capacity. Which brings up an interesting question. What is the definition of the truck? Look it up. A truck is a vehicle that hauls a lot of cargo. A heavy truck is a vehicle that hauls more than a light truck. Ok, so if we arrange vehicles by cargo capacity, we find small cargo capacity (cars), medium cargo capacity (pickups), and high cargo capacity (heavy duty trucks). Sure, you will see features that, almost by definition, are needed in bigger and bigger vehicles and so tend to exist in larger vehicles as one goes along. All this does is sort on one variable, cargo capacity. Now lets add in all the variables in which vehicles vary: air conditioning, make and model, engine type, fuel, brand of spark plugs, type of brakes, type of sound system, etc. Now give me a breakdown, please, that groups vehicles in all these categories in a single nested classification system that is readily accepted by all. You may think a beat-up '57 Chevy pickup should be classified with an '18 Ford F-150, but others would say that is closer the the '57 Bel Air.

There are only a few things that can be grouped in a clear, objective, readily accepted nested hierarchy. These include languages and manuscripts of old books. They share the same trait. They are all reproduced with changes from some previous reproduction with changes. Reproductions of reproductions tend to keep the changes in the line of ancestry that led to that copy. Where you see a clear, unambiguous, objective nested hierarchy of many layers, that is strong evidence you are dealing with something that has been reproducing with changes.

And so it is that nested hierarchies are evidence that things have descended with change from a common source. For living things, that means evolution. See 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 1 .

I conclude that nested hierarchies are evidence for evolution.

This is absurd. Man, his intelligence, talents, abilities, rationality, creativity, communication, spirituality, likeness with God is so _so far more advanced and different than it is worth any effort at all comparing similarities with animals. It is a joke to even illustrate man having to do with this fictitious tree, that in itself is an illusion of absurdity. I guess we can both pick up a banana and eat it similarly ... actually I think they bite the whole skin too. I liked Caesar in the Planet of the Apes, it's funny -- but that's Hollywood.
Life came from life and it was made in finished forms. All life forms were made as you see them and whatever forms are extinct were just forms that became extinct, not forms that were at any time anything else. Adaptive mechanisms were programmed into the genetic code and so we do see micro-evolution, changes within the species to adapt to different environmental changes; but not macro-evolution, the changing of one kind into a completely different kind.
Darwin was a fool, he went down the wrong path and his imagination twisted and distorted our historical perspective or our origins. We were made finished as was a peacock was always a peacock and a rose was always a rose. An amoeba is still an amoeba. A bird was never a reptile or anything else. The design in each and every kind is unique and fits into this vast eco-system, also part of a gran design, created by a Designer.
You can look at similarities, but stop, otherwise you will also be foolishly deceived into thinking there is no God, nature is all there is ... or even that God started things out and evolution took it from there.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
... or even that God started things out and evolution took it from there.
Yes that is a possibility. As a possibility it is far superior to what creationists have to offer: a shallow and theologically unsatisfying interpretation of Genesis wedded to an ugly and unAmerican right-wing political agenda.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ronald

Exhortations
Site Supporter
Jul 30, 2004
4,620
981
southern
✟111,578.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Have you read "The Origin of the Species"? What in particular do you take issue with?
It is pointless to argue the premise of the TOE with an atheist, it always leads to a wall that divides us. You are unable to see what's on the other side of that wall. You first need to be enabled. You have a disability in a sense that I cannot fix.
 
Upvote 0

Jimmy D

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2014
5,147
5,995
✟277,099.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
It is pointless to argue the premise of the TOE with an atheist, it always leads to a wall that divides us. You are unable to see what's on the other side of that wall. You first need to be enabled. You have a disability in a sense that I cannot fix.

I wasn't after an argument, I was wondering why you thought one of the most influential scientists of the last 200 years is a fool.

Can we assume, from your cop-out answer that you haven't read it? Don't you think that what you said is extremely hypocritical, and rather uncharitable under the circumstances? Don't you care?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ophiolite
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,522
2,609
✟102,963.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
This is absurd. Man, his intelligence, talents, abilities, rationality, creativity, communication, spirituality, likeness with God is so _so far more advanced and different than it is worth any effort at all comparing similarities with animals.
-_- humans have only a handful of mental capabilities that are above any other organism. I mean, chimps even have better memories than we do. The biggest one is problem solving; humans are really good at problem solving. Problem solving is not exclusive to humans, we are just the best organism we know of at doing it.

Life came from life and it was made in finished forms.
-_- no one is claiming that a human ancestor was a human waist down and nothing waist up. Organisms don't evolve "incomplete".

All life forms were made as you see them and whatever forms are extinct were just forms that became extinct, not forms that were at any time anything else.
Then why aren't there any human fossils among trilobite fossils? If everything existed at the same time at some point, fossils would reflect that.

Adaptive mechanisms were programmed into the genetic code and so we do see micro-evolution, changes within the species to adapt to different environmental changes; but not macro-evolution, the changing of one kind into a completely different kind.
Lol, the "adaptive mechanisms" you are referring to is just the imperfect DNA replication system. Doesn't matter how beneficial a mutation is, as far as eukaryotes like ourselves are concerned, they are all the result of mistakes. Not with prokaryotes, though, but that's because not all alterations to their genomes are the result of mutations.

Darwin was a fool, he went down the wrong path and his imagination twisted and distorted our historical perspective or our origins. We were made finished as was a peacock was always a peacock and a rose was always a rose. An amoeba is still an amoeba. A bird was never a reptile or anything else.
Lol, then why do developing chicken embryos briefly have teeth?

The design in each and every kind is unique and fits into this vast eco-system, also part of a gran design, created by a Designer.
You can look at similarities, but stop, otherwise you will also be foolishly deceived into thinking there is no God, nature is all there is ... or even that God started things out and evolution took it from there.
Evolution has 0 to do with why I am an atheist. Most people that are atheists don't have evolution contribute to it.
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,452
805
72
Chicago
✟131,126.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, but such feigned ignorance is no excuse.
Plenty of people here have explained things in ridiculous detail and with the patience of angels that I don't even believe exist.

And if that isn't enough for you, there's a wealth of information out there in all kinds of science books with various degrees of "dificulty".

In this information age, you really have no excuse at all for not having a correct understanding of the established scientific theory you wish to argue against (because of your religious beliefs).

Your argument is also full of holes, and is not readable.
 
Upvote 0

Snappy1

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2018
858
601
34
Arkansas
✟45,041.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
In Relationship
No, not because you "dare to question science".

Question, is how science makes progress. It's an indespensible and hugely important aspect of science.

The problem however, is that you don't just "question". Instead, you argue against it and even call it a "lie". In essence, that wouldn't be a problem either IF it was well-motivated.

But that's the thing now, isn't it.... it's anything BUT well-motivated. In fact, it is only motivated by fundamentalist religious beliefs.

Worse still, I have yet to meet a creationist who calls "evolution a lie" and/or who spells it "evilution" and who actually also understands what the theory is all about.

I mean seriously... just about every thread on here on this topic... we end up having to explain the very basics of the basics of evolution theory.

Only to then see a couple days later that the same poster is again making the same false claims.

So, no, the problem is not that creationists "question science".

The problem rather is that they
- are dishonest
- don't listen
- demonize science (instead of just questioning it)
- motivate their "questioning" not with better science, but rather with fundamentalist religious beliefs
- don't actually understand the science that they are "questioning", in the first place.
This would be a good post if someone actually ya know....read it.
 
Upvote 0

Snappy1

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2018
858
601
34
Arkansas
✟45,041.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
9,402
3,194
Hartford, Connecticut
✟357,388.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
More rhetoric. Any chance I'll be seeing any substance as I read more of this thread?



No, just no. Life first appears in the Archaean, at least 3.5 billion years ago. The Cambrian explosion happened over the course of 20-50 million years ago and was really more of a situation where hard bodied beings fossilized more easily.



Closer to three billion.

I agree in principal, just wanted to point out, while the explosion itself might havel lasted some 50 million years in expanse, it occurred around 500-550 million years ago, as opposed to the 20-50 million years ago, which would have place the cambrian some time in the cenozoic. I suspect this was just a typo.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: USincognito
Upvote 0

Snappy1

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2018
858
601
34
Arkansas
✟45,041.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Yes.
In this case, I, the student, am better than the teacher.
I'm guessing you're just as good of a teacher as you are a student.
 
Upvote 0

Bungle_Bear

Whoot!
Mar 6, 2011
9,084
3,513
✟262,040.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Yes.
In this case, I, the student, am better than the teacher.
lol

That level of self-contradiction without the faintest hint of understanding probably demonstrates you are both a bad teacher and a bad student.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Brightmoon
Upvote 0

Snappy1

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2018
858
601
34
Arkansas
✟45,041.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
In Relationship
lol

That level of self-contradiction without the faintest hint of understanding probably demonstrates you are both a bad teacher and a bad student.
My good sir, I'll have you know you're speaking to the geologist that declared that rocks are alive.

Edit: Sorry, claims he's a geologist, all evidence to the contrary obviously.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0