Is a Christian really subject to the OT Law?

[Daniel Marsh]

Secular society however, is under law, no? And the carnal Christian is under what...?

The Mosaic Law was addressed only to Israel and today to Jewish People.

Secular Society has the law of God on their hearts. Romans 2:15
Some Societies has laws against stealing and murder.
Carnal Christian falls under I John 1:8-10 and God's Disciple.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Saturday Sabbath is only addressed to Israel and today applies only to the Jewish People, read the introduction to the big ten.

Exodus 20 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
20 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord thy God, who have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me....

Deuteronomy 5 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
5 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

3 The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

4 The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire

5 (I stood between the Lord and you at that time to show you the word of the Lord, for ye were afraid by reason of the fire and went not up into the mount), saying:

6 “‘I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

7 “‘Thou shalt have no other gods before Me....

 

[Devin P]

Saturday Sabbath is only addressed to Jewish People, read the introduction to the big ten.

Exodus 20 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
20 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord thy God, who have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me....

Deuteronomy 5 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
5 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

3 The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

4 The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire

5 (I stood between the Lord and you at that time to show you the word of the Lord, for ye were afraid by reason of the fire and went not up into the mount), saying:

6 “‘I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

7 “‘Thou shalt have no other gods before Me....

Well, I mean, it wasn't given to only the Jewish people. It was given to the Israelites, which were made up of 12 tribes. Judah (the tribe Jews came from) was only one of those 12.

Moses for example wasn't Jewish, he was of the tribe of Levi. Meaning, he was and still is a Levite, not Jewish.

The Sabbath was given to Israel, but according to Romans 11, by accepting what Jesus did, by faith you are grafted into Israel. Meaning the Sabbath is a blessing for you too.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

The Mosaic Law was addressed only to the Jewish People.

Secular Society has the law of God on their hearts. Romans 2:15
Some Societies has laws against stealing and murder.
Carnal Christian falls under I John 1:8-10 and God's Disciple.

Paul's letters were addressed to specific Churches, Christ came for the "lost sheep of Israel" etc., if we go "the law doesn't apply to Gentiles" route and apply that principal consistently and rigidly as is (and not take into account other Scripture).

 

[Devin P]

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is speaking as a Pharisee in trying to obey the Old Law before he became a Christian.

What? Paul was not speaking as a Pharisee here at all, he was addressing something that needed addressing. He references in the beginning in of the chapter of Romans 7, that unless you know the law, what he's saying next won't make any sense. Then he goes on to compare what God did, and why Jesus had to die with the law that explains why it could only be done this way according to God's law, because He doesn't break His own law.

Then he goes on to talk about how the law is spiritual in verse 14, and says that he desires to keep it in verses 18-25, but that his flesh keeps him from keeping it, yet Jesus will redeem him.

In chapter 8, he says that the flesh is at enmity with God because it isn't subject to God's law, nor can it be.

 

[black.hawk]

I John 4

11 Dear friends, if this is how God loved us, then we should love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in union with us, and his love is made perfect in us.

13 We are sure that we live in union with God and that he lives in union with us, because he has given us his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and tell others that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If we declare that Jesus is the Son of God, we live in union with God and God lives in union with us. 16 And we ourselves know and believe the love which God has for us.

God is love, and those who live in love live in union with God and God lives in union with them. 17 Love is made perfect in us in order that we may have courage on the Judgment Day; and we will have it because our life in this world is the same as Christ's. 18 There is no fear in love; perfect love drives out all fear. So then, love has not been made perfect in anyone who is afraid, because fear has to do with punishment.

19 We love because God first loved us. 20 If we say we love God, but hate others, we are liars. For we cannot love God, whom we have not seen, if we do not love others, whom we have seen. 21 The command that Christ has given us is this: whoever loves God must love others also.

See I Cor 13

Gal 5

13 As for you, my friends, you were called to be free. But do not let this freedom become an excuse for letting your physical desires control you. Instead, let love make you serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is summed up in one commandment: “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” 15 But if you act like wild animals, hurting and harming each other, then watch out, or you will completely destroy one another.

The Spirit and Human Nature

16 What I say is this: let the Spirit direct your lives, and you will not satisfy the desires of the human nature. 17 For what our human nature wants is opposed to what the Spirit wants, and what the Spirit wants is opposed to what our human nature wants. These two are enemies, and this means that you cannot do what you want to do. 18 If the Spirit leads you, then you are not subject to the Law.

19 What human nature does is quite plain. It shows itself in immoral, filthy, and indecent actions; 20 in worship of idols and witchcraft. People become enemies and they fight; they become jealous, angry, and ambitious. They separate into parties and groups; 21 they are envious, get drunk, have orgies, and do other things like these. I warn you now as I have before: those who do these things will not possess the Kingdom of God.

22 But the Spirit produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 humility, and self-control. There is no law against such things as these. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have put to death their human nature with all its passions and desires. 25 The Spirit has given us life; he must also control our lives. 26 We must not be proud or irritate one another or be jealous of one another.

Short answer, serve each other in Love = No Law.

Matthew 5:17

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'd disagree-somewhat. First of all I mentioned that Paul referenced the Ten Commandments in Rom 13, not all of them-I didn't mention the Sabbath.

Nowhere does Paul say that Saturday Sabbath keeping is in loving one's neighbor. In Romans 13:8-10, Paul was able to make a point that if you love your neighbor, you will automatically fulfill those laws (i.e. Moral Law) whereby you do not need a written code or billy club hitting you over the head telling you that it is wrong. The point is that by loving one's neighbor, it will fulfill that which one would do by natural instinct to do what they know to be right and good (without any specific instructions). Hence, why one will automatically fulfill things like "Do not covet," "Do not steal," and "Do not murder," etc. by merely loving the other person. The Saturday Sabbath is very specific in it's instructions. You would not know about taking rest on a specific day without God telling you to do so. This is not something one will do if they were to simply love their neighbor or to love others.

But I'd still maintain that the decalogue is a publicly revealed declaration of certain basic moral truths of God's Eternal Law. The Sabbath must be observed in one way or the other, love would demand a day of rest and worship of God even if the Church saw fit to observe it on a different day.

We are New Covenant believers and not Old Covenant believers. We are to put new wine into new wine skins and we are not to put new wine into old wine skins. New Covenant believers follow the commands in the New Covenant (i.e. the New Testament). If you were to carefully look, there is no command given to us by Jesus and His followers to keep the Saturday Sabbath. On the contrary, we are told by Paul that we are not to judge according to Sabbaths or holy days. This lets us know that the Saturday Sabbath is no longer binding. The Old Law is no more. It ended with Christ dying upon the cross. Hence, why the temple veil was torn, etc.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What? Paul was not speaking as a Pharisee here at all, he was addressing something that needed addressing. He references in the beginning in of the chapter of Romans 7, that unless you know the law, what he's saying next won't make any sense. Then he goes on to compare what God did, and why Jesus had to die with the law that explains why it could only be done this way according to God's law, because He doesn't break His own law.

Then he goes on to talk about how the law is spiritual in verse 14, and says that he desires to keep it in verses 18-25, but that his flesh keeps him from keeping it, yet Jesus will redeem him.

In chapter 8, he says that the flesh is at enmity with God because it isn't subject to God's law, nor can it be.

Most know Paul for his great message of God's grace. But there are some who take Paul's words to the extreme and think that he is teaching that God's grace is a license for immorality.
In fact, Peter says this about Paul's writings,

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

Here are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts of the Apostles 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).


Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

 

[r4.h]

The meaning of "not under the law" is that no one can be saved by keeping the law. The nation of Israel was obligated to keep the spirit of all Gods law and temple requirements (and be blessed) or if they rebelled,( by their own sworn oath) be cursed. They often kept the cerimonial laws but violated the moral laws, usually by twisting them to suit their sinful desires and deny responsibility to others such as the poor and downcast or to defraud their brother in some way.
We are moral beings and will never be free from moral law (what is right and wrong), not here or in heaven. Satan broke the moral law that God alone is worthy to be worshipped. If God were not the only one with the credentials then He could be challenged and it would not be a moral issue, but a power issue. Since God alone is worthy, He is morally obligated to ensure His ongoing rule and reign or else cease being a loving wise fool and perfect God.
In conclusion: Yes christians are to keep those OT laws that are morally wrong to violate, i.e violating the keeping of the Sabbath as Saturday, given to the nation of Israel, is not morally wrong for a christian but the other 9 will always be. However as said earlier keeping them will save no one unless they have never broken one jot. Too late, "all have sinned and fallen short" so all are in need of the Savior.
Look up "Antinomianism" this the name given to those who believe the moral law does not apply to them"

 

[bugkiller]

I believe the Lord was talking to the Jews in the Old Testament, and he gave them a lot of rules to follow regarding the way they carried out worship, rules that don't apply to Christians. Still, you can clearly see that a lot of what he said to the Jews applies to everyone in the world, such as the Ten Commandments.

No because we have a new and better covenant based on better promises.

bugkiller

 

[fhansen]

Nowhere does Paul say that Saturday Sabbath keeping is in loving one's neighbor. In Romans 13:8-10, Paul was able to make a point that if you love your neighbor, you will automatically fulfill those laws (i.e. Moral Law) whereby you do not need a written code or billy club hitting you over the head telling you that it is wrong. The point is that by loving one's neighbor, it will fulfill that which one would do by natural instinct to do what they know to be right and good (without any specific instructions). Hence, why one will automatically fulfill things like "Do not covet," "Do not steal," and "Do not murder," etc. by merely loving the other person. The Saturday Sabbath is very specific in it's instructions. You would not know about taking rest on a specific day without God telling you to do so. This is not something one will do if they were to simply love their neighbor or to love others.



We are New Covenant believers and not Old Covenant believers. We are to put new wine into new wine skins and we are not to put new wine into old wine skins. New Covenant believers follow the commands in the New Covenant (i.e. the New Testament). If you were to carefully look, there is no command given to us by Jesus and His followers to keep the Saturday Sabbath. On the contrary, we are told by Paul that we are not to judge according to Sabbaths or holy days. This lets us know that the Saturday Sabbath is no longer binding. The Old Law is no more. It ended with Christ dying upon the cross. Hence, why the temple veil was torn, etc.

And that's just another personal opinion, private interpretation. The first three commandments involve love of God, the rest love of neighbor. They were never revoked and Jesus supported them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The meaning of "not under the law" is that no one can be saved by keeping the law. The nation of Israel was obligated to keep the spirit of all Gods law and temple requirements (and be blessed) or if they rebelled,( by their own sworn oath) be cursed. They often kept the cerimonial laws but violated the moral laws, usually by twisting them to suit their sinful desires and deny responsibility to others such as the poor and downcast or to defraud their brother in some way.

Actually, faith was the foundation of the Old Covenant just as it is today. Jesus said to the Pharisees that they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42). For it is why Paul writes about how Abraham had faith (Romans 4). It is why the author of Hebrews writes about how many various OT saints had faith (Which was followed by right actions and not wrong actions) (Hebrews 11).

We are moral beings and will never be free from moral law (what is right and wrong), not here or in heaven.

The Law has changed (See Hebrews 7:12). Many think God's laws may exist today, but they wrongfully think that these laws simply do not apply to them in regards to salvation. However, this is not what Jesus and His followers taught, though. Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Jesus said if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus said if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). Jesus essentially told us that if we do not help the poor in this life, we can be cast into everlasting fire (See Matthew 25:31-46). John says if you hate your brother, no eternal life abides in you (1 John 3:15). In fact, John says we can know the difference between a child of God and a child of the devil by the fact that, "he that does not righteousness is not of God" (See 1 John 3:10). John says in 1 John 3:8 that, "he that commits sin is of the devil." Jesus essentially said, by a person's fruits you will know whether or not someone is a false prophet or not (Matthew 7:16).

Satan broke the moral law that God alone is worthy to be worshipped. If God were not the only one with the credentials then He could be challenged and it would not be a moral issue, but a power issue. Since God alone is worthy, He is morally obligated to ensure His ongoing rule and reign or else cease being a loving wise fool and perfect God.

Angels are not under the faith like humans are. They were never under the Old Covenant or New Covenant. One of the lessons of fallen angels is that if we break God's Law (like they did), things will not go well for us at the Judgment; And destruction and not life will be our reward.

In conclusion: Yes christians are to keep those OT laws that are morally wrong to violate, i.e violating the keeping of the Sabbath as Saturday, given to the nation of Israel, is not morally wrong for a christian but the other 9 will always be. However as said earlier keeping them will save no one unless they have never broken one jot.

First, the Saturday Sabbath is not even a moral law.
A moral law is anything telling you to do what is good and right without a specific outward command telling you that such a thing is so. The Gentiles by nature did the things contained in the law.

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Romans 2:14).​

Which things did the Gentiles do contained in the Law? The moral aspect or moral laws within the Old Law is what they did by nature.

Webster's 1913 Dictionary defines this as a "Moral Sense."

Moral sense
"The power of moral judgment and feeling; the capacity to perceive what is right or wrong in moral conduct, and to approve or disapprove, independently of education or the knowledge of any positive rule or law."

See definition 6 here.

Second, we are not under the Old Law because the Old Law was a part of the Old Covenant. Now, does that mean we can murder, steal, covet, etc.? No. These are God's Eternal Moral Laws that have existed after the "Fall of Adam and Eve" when they received the knowledge of good and evil. The written Law of Moses (given to Israel) merely emphasized or repeated God's Eternal Moral Laws that were already in existence. God's Eternal Moral Laws still exist today but under the umbrella of the commands of the New Covenant (New Testament). Basically a Christian should look to the New Testament and not the Old Testament in order to obey God. The Old Law is only lawful if one uses it lawfully. I believe if one looks to the Moral Law in the OT (and not the ceremonial laws like the Sabbath, circumcision, and the dietary laws), they are using the Old Law lawfully. Granted, I think a believer can observe the Sabbath, and other OT customs, etc. but they should not think that not keeping them is a salvation issue (like it was when the OT was in effect before Christ's death).

Too late, "all have sinned and fallen short" so all are in need of the Savior.
Look up "Antinomianism" this the name given to those who believe the moral law does not apply to them"

Actually, if you think Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is talking to the believer in Christ than you must also conclude that the believer in Christ also has no understanding and the believer in Christ does not seek after God according to Romans 3:11, too. In other words, Paul was talking about "Initial Salvation" (Justification by faith in accepting Jesus as one's Savior) so as to refute the Jew's false religion and promotion of "Circumcision Salvationism." This is why Paul says, "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1). This is why Paul says to the Galatians, "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2). Yet, circumcision was an eventual requirement for certain OT saints as a part of salvation.

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, Paul condemns "Circumcision Salvation" under the New Covenant (Galatians 5:2). So clearly not all laws are the same between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. It is clear that the Old Covenant Laws were given to Old Covenant saints and New Covenant Laws are given to New Covenant saints; And there are many laws that believers of the New Covenant have to keep (Which is a salvation issue) (See: Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 10:33, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 John 2:4, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8).

As for Antinomianism: Yes, the term "Antinomianism" is defined by not keeping the Law of Moses (with the thinking one is saved), but just because somebody came up with a clever label does not mean they are exactly correct or right. Antinomianism should be defined as a believer thinking they do not have to keep God's laws as a part of salvation for any respective covenant that applies to them. Meaning, Old Covenant saints were to obey Old Covenant laws (or commands) and New Covenant saints are to obey New Covenant Laws (or commands). Granted, not all sin leads to (spiritual death) (See 1 John 5:16-17). But the breaking of God's Eternal Moral Laws does lead to spiritual death unless one asks for forgiveness of such sins to the Lord Jesus Christ and forsakes such sins (of course).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And that's just another personal opinion, private interpretation. The first three commandments involve love of God, the rest love of neighbor. They were never revoked and Jesus supported them.

The 1st and greatest commandment is loving God with all one's heart, strength, soul, and mind (Mark 12:30). The second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor (Mark 12:31). These I believe are the real first two commandments of God.

At a certain time under the Old Covenant: There were a total of 613 Commands given to Israel. The 10 commandments given to Israel (and not the church - Although 9 out of the 10 have been repeated as commands for us in the NT) are listed as such in Exodus 20:

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything.
3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house, wife, or property.

I see the first three out of the 10 commandments (which was given to Moses) as referring to loving God. The 4th commandment, which is the Saturday Sabbath was a very important command to keep for Israelites in the Old Covenant (and not the New Covenant) because if they disobeyed this law, they could be put to death (physically). There is no such command like that under the New Covenant. We are not to be put to death other believers or anyone for disobeying the Sabbath. We received no new "Saturday Sabbath" commands from Jesus and His followers telling us how we must keep the Sabbath (or spiritual death is the result). The New Covenant officially went into effect with Christ's death. This is obvious in the fact that the temple veil was torn from top to bottom (ending those OT laws on animals sacrifices and the priesthood). This is obvious in the fact that Christ said that the wine in the Lord's supper was representative of his blood of the New Testament (i.e. New Covenant). New Covenant believers follow New Covenant commands and Old Covenant believers follow Old Covenant commands. We should not put new wine into old wine skins (or bottles).

Remember, Paul condemned "Circumcision Salvationism" in Galatians 5:2. Yet, in Genesis 17:14, "Circumcision Salvation" applied to certain Old Testament saints at one point in history (under the Old Covenant).

So Hebrews 7:12 is speaking the truth when it says that the Law has changed.

 

[Joseph Lim]

Hello Daniel,

Your question "Is a Christian really subject to the Old Testament Law?" is clearly answered in the book of Galatians written by Paul. The whole 6 chapters explains clearly that Jesus came to free us from the law and that we are only, and I emphasize "only," justified by grace given by Jesus Christ.

To give some examples of what Paul is saying, in Galatians 2:21 it says "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing."(NIV)

First of all, the law in the OT is VERY extensive. There was nobody who could say that he or she kept those commandments without fail. Therefore, if we think that the law could justify our faith, we lose sight of Jesus Christ who came fully knowing that we are going to miss the mark of God EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. If we are bound by the law even after knowing that God has freed us then we are dismissing what Christ did on the cross for us.

Think about it like this. Let's say that you are in a jail cell, and that cell represents the bondage of sin, Jesus Christ came to set you free. He has unlocked the shackles from your wrists and opened the door to freedom. If you still remain in the law then you are choosing to remain in your cell all the while the door is open and all you have to do is step out of the cell and live in freedom.

Paul in Galatians 5 once again rebukes the people of Galatia. It says in verses 2-4, "Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." (NIV)

Understand the context that circumcision was considered the sign that you are a part of God's community. As you might already know, same as baptism, circumcision doesn't grant you salvation. Only your faith in Jesus Christ does. Paul is essentially questioning why the people of Galatia has gone back to the law when they were doing so well before. I love the verse "you have fallen away from grace." Let's remember that without grace, we are nothing. Without grace, we will all end up in hell. God in His mercy, sent his Son, as a lamb to die for us. Let us not forget that we are justified by what Jesus Christ has done, and definitely not what we did.

God bless,

Joseph

 

[discipler7]

Is a Christian really subject to the OT Law?
Short answer, serve each other in Love = No Law.

.
When you "serve each other in love", you are actually keeping the OT Law at LEVITICUS.19:18, ie "you shall love your neighbour as yourself", which is also the 2nd great commandment of God - MATTHEW.22:39.

The 1st great commandment or Law of God that a Christian should keep is "‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’" at DEUTERONOMY.6:5 - MATTHEW.22:37.

There are also the less great commandments of God(= the OT Law has 613 commandments) that a Christian should keep, eg a new Gentile Christian should keep all the great commandments of God which are not a burden to him/her, especially moral laws = the Ten Commandments, etc.(ACTS.15:24-29)

The Christian does not just stop here, like the unbelieving Jews. The Christian faithfully keeps God's Law/OT Law(= similar to the Jews) and keeps faith in Jesus Christ for his/her salvation from hell when he/she dies = this was how a Jew during Jesus's time could become perfect = became a Jewish Christian like the apostles Paul and John - MATTHEW.19:23.

 

[Arsenios]

Most know Paul for his great message of God's grace. But there are some who take Paul's words to the extreme and think that he is teaching that God's grace is a license for immorality.
In fact, Peter says this about Paul's writings,

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

Here are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts of the Apostles 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).


Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

Excellent summary... A proper literal translation of Rom 7:1 , which governs all that follows, establishes Paul as becoming one of them for the purposes of this discourse to follow:

Rom_7:1
Know ye not, brethren,
for I am speaking to them (who are) knowing the Law,
How that the law hath dominion over a man
As long as he is living?

"For to those without the Law, I became as one without the Law..." etc...

"I am speaking to them knowing the Law"

Arsenios

 

[r4.h]

Actually, faith was the foundation of the Old Covenant just as it is today. Jesus said to the Pharisees that they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42). For it is why Paul writes about how Abraham had faith (Romans 4). It is why the author of Hebrews writes about how many various OT saints had faith (Which was followed by right actions and not wrong actions) (Hebrews 11).



The Law has changed (See Hebrews 7:12). Many think God's laws may exist today, but they wrongfully think that these laws simply do not apply to them in regards to salvation. However, this is not what Jesus and His followers taught, though. Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Jesus said if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus said if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). Jesus essentially told us that if we do not help the poor in this life, we can be cast into everlasting fire (See Matthew 25:31-46). John says if you hate your brother, no eternal life abides in you (1 John 3:15). In fact, John says we can know the difference between a child of God and a child of the devil by the fact that, "he that does not righteousness is not of God" (See 1 John 3:10). John says in 1 John 3:8 that, "he that commits sin is of the devil." Jesus essentially said, by a person's fruits you will know whether or not someone is a false prophet or not (Matthew 7:16).



Angels are not under the faith like humans are. They were never under the Old Covenant or New Covenant. One of the lessons of fallen angels is that if we break God's Law (like they did), things will not go well for us at the Judgment; And destruction and not life will be our reward.



First, the Saturday Sabbath is not even a moral law.
A moral law is anything telling you to do what is good and right without a specific outward command telling you that such a thing is so. The Gentiles by nature did the things contained in the law.

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Romans 2:14).​

Which things did the Gentiles do contained in the Law? The moral aspect or moral laws within the Old Law is what they did by nature.

Webster's 1913 Dictionary defines this as a "Moral Sense."

Moral sense
"The power of moral judgment and feeling; the capacity to perceive what is right or wrong in moral conduct, and to approve or disapprove, independently of education or the knowledge of any positive rule or law."

See definition 6 here.

Second, we are not under the Old Law because the Old Law was a part of the Old Covenant. Now, does that mean we can murder, steal, covet, etc.? No. These are God's Eternal Moral Laws that have existed after the "Fall of Adam and Eve" when they received the knowledge of good and evil. The written Law of Moses (given to Israel) merely emphasized or repeated God's Eternal Moral Laws that were already in existence. God's Eternal Moral Laws still exist today but under the umbrella of the commands of the New Covenant (New Testament). Basically a Christian should look to the New Testament and not the Old Testament in order to obey God. The Old Law is only lawful if one uses it lawfully. I believe if one looks to the Moral Law in the OT (and not the ceremonial laws like the Sabbath, circumcision, and the dietary laws), they are using the Old Law lawfully. Granted, I think a believer can observe the Sabbath, and other OT customs, etc. but they should not think that not keeping them is a salvation issue (like it was when the OT was in effect before Christ's death).



Actually, if you think Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is talking to the believer in Christ than you must also conclude that the believer in Christ also has no understanding and the believer in Christ does not seek after God according to Romans 3:11, too. In other words, Paul was talking about "Initial Salvation" (Justification by faith in accepting Jesus as one's Savior) so as to refute the Jew's false religion and promotion of "Circumcision Salvationism." This is why Paul says, "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1). This is why Paul says to the Galatians, "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2). Yet, circumcision was an eventual requirement for certain OT saints as a part of salvation.

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, Paul condemns "Circumcision Salvation" under the New Covenant (Galatians 5:2). So clearly not all laws are the same between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. It is clear that the Old Covenant Laws were given to Old Covenant saints and New Covenant Laws are given to New Covenant saints; And there are many laws that believers of the New Covenant have to keep (Which is a salvation issue) (See: Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 10:33, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 John 2:4, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8).

As for Antinomianism: Yes, the term "Antinomianism" is defined by not keeping the Law of Moses (with the thinking one is saved), but just because somebody came up with a clever label does not mean they are exactly correct or right. Antinomianism should be defined as a believer thinking they do not have to keep God's laws as a part of salvation for any respective covenant that applies to them. Meaning, Old Covenant saints were to obey Old Covenant laws (or commands) and New Covenant saints are to obey New Covenant Laws (or commands). Granted, not all sin leads to (spiritual death) (See 1 John 5:16-17). But the breaking of God's Eternal Moral Laws does lead to spiritual death unless one asks for forgiveness of such sins to the Lord Jesus Christ and forsakes such sins (of course).

 

[r4.h]

hi Jason, i think you pretty much misunderstood everything i said, but theres just too much to reply to. So i will just pick one. Keeping the sabbath (a seventh part) in spirit and in truth is a moral law as it is wrong and therefore sinful to overwork and to "cease the assembling together as some"
The sabbath of Israel, was left off for Christians who are not a nation but a people of every tribe and tongue. Here in NZ it is not Saturday when it is in Israel, so its not possible to keep it anyway.

 

[Buzz_B]

Is a Christian really subject to the OT Law?
Short answer, serve each other in Love = No Law.

Your short answer that a Christian is not really subjected to the OT Law will only lead to general lawlessness(MATTHEW.7:23) and chaos among Christians and in the Church = no peace.
....... Serving each other in love may be meaningless if a Christian does not fully know God's Law, eg DEUTERONOMY.18:9-14 and 1CORINTHIANS.5:1-13/LEVITICUS.18:6-8.

A Christian worth his/her salt would love to be subjected to the OT Law, either partially or fully(see ACTS.15:24-29), but with the spiritual understanding that it is not the keeping of the Law which will save him/her from hell when he/she dies = he/she would only gain a good, peaceful and long life on earth by keeping God's Law.(see and compare 1COR.6:9-11 and REV.22:12-15)
....... Salvation can only come through faith in Jesus the Christ/Messiah/Saviour = justified by faith and not by the Law.(GALATIANS.2:15-17)
...... But what about our lives on earth.? How are we to be guided or led in our remaining time left on earth.? Remember, Jesus Christ is also the Word of God or the Law.(JOHN.1:1 & 14 & 6:63)

Faith in God/Jesus(HEBREWS.11:6) also requires Christians to please or love God by keeping His Law/Word/commandments, either partially(= for Gentile Christians) or fully(= by Jewish Christians or Messianic Jews). Otherwise, worse things will happen to them - DEUT.28:15-, PROVERBS.1:26, JOHN.5:14, 1COR.11:30, HEB.10:26-31, 1JOHN.5:16-19)

I like what you have said and agree with it for the most part. But I would like to comment on just a few things of it.

You said, “Faith in God/Jesus(HEBREWS.11:6) also requires Christians to please or love God by keeping His Law/Word/commandments, either partially(= for Gentile Christians) or fully(= by Jewish Christians or Messianic Jews)

The part I emboldened and enlarged above is IMHO a missed understanding. There is no difference for the Jew or the Gentile. Acts of the Apostles 15:9-11

And so I would like to speak concerning how the confusion comes in that would say what you said, “either partially(= for Gentile Christians) or fully(= by Jewish Christians or Messianic Jews)”

Peter and other of the Apostles who based their ministry out of Jerusalem, lived as Paul stated at 1 Corinthians 9:20 “To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law.” Paul told us that Peter lived the same as he and the Gentiles:

Galatians 2:14 “But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?”

What we see was happening is that Peter was acting like he was yet there in Jerusalem and conforming to those Jews who were present so that he might win them, being as Peter's ministry was to win Jews to Christ. The effect of what Paul told Peter there at Galatians 2:14 was that there was no need to maintain that conformity for the sake of the Jews there among the Gentiles being as in that predominantly Gentile setting to do so would only confuse the Gentiles into believing those Jews who were among them yet preaching that it was necessary to abide the letter of the Old Covenant Law.

There is one law for all who call themselves Christian, regardless of their fleshly lineage, and that is the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 9:21 And the Jewish Christian movement which has resurrected an obligation to that Old Law Covenant are building again the things Christ died to have fulfilled in himself, failing to understand accurately how we are all, whether Jew or Gentile, to fulfill that Law of God spiritually with Christ, in Christ. Romans 8:4

You did say some spot on things in your post and I fear that my having to address what was not spot on might hide that I see that. The following was spot on: “Your short answer that a Christian is not really subjected to the OT Law will only lead to general lawlessness(MATTHEW.7:23) and chaos among Christians and in the Church = no peace.
....... Serving each other in love may be meaningless if a Christian does not fully know God's Law, eg DEUTERONOMY.18:9-14 and 1CORINTHIANS.5:1-13/LEVITICUS.18:6-8.”

What is happening here in this thread is that many seem to think that being as Christ fulfilled that Old Law, we do not any longer have to. And what is happening here in this thread is that many seem to not understand how fulfilling that Old Law spiritually differs from fulfilling it by the rote letter. And what is happening here in this thread is that many seem to not understand how violating that Old Law proves our need to yet be under it with its penalties for sin. James 2:9 “but if ye have respect of persons, ye commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors.”

Hosea 14:9 “Who is wise, that he may understand these things? prudent, that he may know them? for the ways of Jehovah are right, and the just shall walk in them; but transgressors shall fall therein.”

This mitigation: Galatians 5:18 “But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.” Is because of this: Galatians 5:16 “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”

Lets use the Sabbath as our example of how fulfilling that law spiritually differs from fulfilling it by rote letter, for the Sabbath is a subject many stumble over.

The background understanding of the Sabbaths which Israel was required to keep is a bit more than just pausing to reflect on the things of God. While that is an important aspect, the most important thing we need to appreciate about those Sabbaths is that they pictured our coming to rest from our worldly toiling in Christ. The Sabbaths were all pointers to Christ and that rest we find in him by dying to the old man which was struggling in this world. And that includes all forms of bondage which is imposed upon the old man by this world, including ending the bondage to sin to have to obey the will of sin.

Israel toiled in bondage to Egypt and long thereafter as they struggled yet with the effects of that bondage and the toll it took upon their character. But in God's perfect time for it (perfection represented by the number 7- Psalms 12:6; Psalms 119:164; Proverbs 24:16) they would receive rest by entering into the promised land wherein they would through the obedience of their love of God receive the full of God's blessings.

Christ then represents our liberator as Moses represented to the Israelite nation. We follow Christ out of our bondage just as Israel followed Moses out of their bondage to Egypt. And just as those Israelite people struggled with the effects of that old bondage and were put through the testing in the wilderness, we must pass through the wilderness with Christ while our disobedience to God's perfect law is being put to death, that we not carry disobedience on into the land of promise with us.

But we see that many of Israel kept on being disobedient, even once they entered into the land of promise. It is important that we see it was not all who were disobedient. Jeremiah fled for fear of his life because it seemed to his mind that all were unfaithful and it seemed futility to him to hang in there.

But what was God's message to him? Romans 11:4 “But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” (Compare: 1 Kings 19:18)

Those seven thousand represent God's elect bride of Christ. They are the only ones who mange full spiritual maturity as we leave the bondage of this old world and head into the thousand years wherein they become as trees of life to the as yet unjust. They become as springs of life-giving water by virtue of the character of Christ and the word of God in them as they reign victoriously with Christ as king/priests for those as yet unjust for the purpose of saving as many as may yet be saved before the final test at the end of the thousand years. But I would have a book here if I continued to speak on this.

The point is that when we return to the mechanical way of observing the Sabbath by rote letter of law, we are putting the focus on the wrong place and unwittingly helping to hide the fuller picture I described herein. Christ is our seventh day. Let us not waste it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Excellent summary... A proper literal translation of Rom 7:1 , which governs all that follows, establishes Paul as becoming one of them for the purposes of this discourse to follow:

Rom_7:1
Know ye not, brethren,
for I am speaking to them (who are) knowing the Law,
How that the law hath dominion over a man
As long as he is living?

"For to those without the Law, I became as one without the Law..." etc...

"I am speaking to them knowing the Law"

Arsenios

Thank you for sharing, brother.
1 Corinthians 9:21 is a beautiful verse that connects in here.

May God bless you greatly today.