For all that fear hell

[thesunisout]

They didn't get those ideas from Jesus....most of these ideas came from Greek mythology and the writings of Homer and Plato (look up the "hellenization of Christianity" to see what I mean). I believe Justin Martyr is one of the main influencers in bringing the Hellenic culture into Christianity ("Hellenic" = Greek ).

So first it is Dantes inferno and now it is hellenization? The teaching of an eternal hell is one of the clearest doctrines of scripture. Jesus taught us that there is a place of eternal punishment called hell, and no amount of reinterpreting or rearranging or denying can change that. Jesus taught more about hell than any other person in scripture. If you take everything He said about hell, which I will paste here if need be, it is undeniable what He is talking about

 

[thesunisout]

It would be helpful if you could try to put aside your preconceived ideas about these passages for a bit. Think about these metaphors using the millstone metaphor first. I read the contrasts to be about life and death (but in a spiritual sense...not literal). See how these verses are using the phrase, "enter life"? How can that be literal.....they are already living? "Enter life" is entering the Kingdom of God (which isn't a place but a way of living--Mark 1:14).

It could very well be that your beliefs are being overshadowed by all the imagery you've heard about hell referring to afterlife....but try to imagine that you've never heard all that (because 1st century Jews never had)....and consider that Jesus was just speaking of the literal place, Gehenna (which was a metaphor for "evil" as it was known to be the place of gruesome idol worship).

The thesis of Jesus' speech is in the beginning of Mark 9, which says:



....which suggests to me the emphasis shouldn't be on the evil side of things....but instead....the encouragement to enter into God's kingdom.

Do you agree that the best interpreter of scripture is scripture?

Matthew 19:16-17

Just then, a man came up to Jesus and inquired, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to obtain eternal life?” 17“Why do you ask Me about what is good? Jesus replied, “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

It is clear from this passage that when Jesus is talking about entering life, He means eternal life. He is directly answering the question of the man who asked how he could obtain eternal life.

Selectively spiritualizing the scripture leads to complete confusion. Jesus is giving us serious warnings about our eternity which we must take to heart. We would be fools not to do so.

I think this quote from Fr Richard Rohr sums it up well:

And about Gehenna?

Much like what SolomonVII was saying.....Jesus was talking about the present time. When He juxtaposed "God's Kingdom" against "Gehenna"......He was not speaking of their life AFTER death. He was encouraging them to change their ways mostly in the areas of justice, money, and inclusion.....keeping in mind that what they do to the "least of these" they do to God.

---->We might do well to follow the Eastern Orthodox Saint Silouan’s advice [2]:

“I remember a conversation between [Staretz Silouan] and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, ‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’

“Obviously upset, the Staretz said, ‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise, and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire—would you feel happy?’

“‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit.

“The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance:

“‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all.’”

~[2] Bishop Kallistos Ware, The Inner Kingdom, Vol. 1 of the Collected Works (St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press: 2004), 48.

I think this scripture refutes those ideas:

Revelation 14:9-11

And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name

 

[mkgal1]

So first it is Dantes inferno and now it is hellenization?

No....it's the other way around (hellenization came first). I only mentioned Dante's Inferno first as that's what's mostly influenced our cultural view of the afterlife now. As culture changes.....so do some of our views of Scripture.

The teaching of an eternal hell is one of the clearest doctrines of scripture.

If it were so "clear"....then why are there 3 accepted views of the afterlife in Christianity?

Jesus taught us that there is a place of eternal punishment called hell, and no amount of reinterpreting or rearranging or denying can change that.

The word, "hell" is a modern word when used to refer to afterlife (so......no, Jesus never used the word "hell").

----->Hell: No such word was in their vocabulary, and they knew of no such place. No word with the meaning that the English word Hell has now was used, or known about unto long after the Bible. It is not in Greek literature in New Testaments times or before, first century writers did not use it, Josephus, or any other historian of that time did not use it, it is not in the Septuagint. A place where God will torment the lost forever after the Judgment Day was not known about. the concept of the place called hell, or the name hell is not in the bible, and does not occur in any writing of either the Hebrews or the Greeks until long after the Bible. The Old Testament Hebrew, or the New Testament Greek, has no word that is even close to today’s English word “hell.” How do we know about this place called hell? Where did hell come from? It is not in the Bible. Neither is the name “hell” in the Bible. Where did it come from? Not by faith that comes by hearing God’s word. It is from the doctrines and precepts of men [Matthew 15:9]. It was not used in the first century because it was a word that was not in their vocabulary, and a place they know nothing about. (William Robert West, If the Soul or Spirit Is Immortal, There Can Be No Resurrection from the Dead,Third Edition, originally published as The Resurrection and Immortality [Bloomington, IN: Author House, September 2006] p. 138.)

The words used that were interpreted to "hell" were, "sheol, hades, and gehenna".

Sheol, a word whose root meaning is “unseen.” The King James Version translates sheol as “hell” 31 times, “the grave” 31 times (since someone in the grave is unseen), and “the pit” three times.

Yet in the Old Testament sheol was not exclusively a place of punishment, for faithful Jacob was there (Gen. 37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 31). Righteous Job also longed for it in Job 14:13. David spoke of going to sheol in Ps. 49:15 and Jesus went there, Ps. 16:10 and Acts 2:24-31. In all these cases, these men were “unseen” because they were dead.

Many times the Bible uses the word sheol of national judgments, i.e., the vanishing of a nation. In Isa. 14:13, 15, Isaiah said Babylon would go to sheol, and she vanished. In Ezk. 26:19-21, Tyre so vanished in sheol. Likewise, in the New Testament, in Mt. 11:23, 12:41, Lk. 10:15, and 11:29-32, Jesus said that Capernaum would so disappear. These nations and cities didn’t go to a particular location, but they were going to disappear, and they did. They were destroyed. Thus, sheol is used commonly of national judgments in both the Old and New Testaments.

The New Testament equivalent of sheol is hades, which occurs only eleven times. Like its synonym sheol, the King James Version translates the word “hell.” However, the correct translation is hades, or the unseen. The Bible doesn’t use hades exclusively for a place of punishment. Luke 16 pictures righteous Lazarus there. Acts 2:27, 31 says Jesus went there. In 1 Cor. 15:55, Paul used the same word when he said, “O grave, where is thy victory?” In Rev. 1:18, Jesus said he had the controlling keys of death and hades, the unseen, and in Rev. 6:8, death and hades followed the pale horse. Finally, in Rev. 20:13, 14, death and hades gave up the dead that were in them, and were then cast into the lake of fire. These verses illustrate that hades refers to anything that is unseen.

Like its companion word in the Old Testament, hades was also plainly used of national judgments in the New Testament. In Mt. 11:23 and Lk. 10:15, Jesus said Capernaum would go down into hades, i.e., it was going to vanish. In Mt. 12:41 and Lk. 11:29-32, Jesus said his generation of Jews was going to fall.

About hades in Greek mythology, Edward Fudge said:

"In Greek mythology Hades was the god of the underworld, then the name of the nether world itself. Charon ferried the souls of the dead across the rivers Styx or Acheron into this abode, where the watchdog Cerberus guarded the gate so none might escape. The pagan myth contained all the elements for medieval eschatology: there was the pleasant Elyusium, the gloomy and miserable tartarus, and even the Plains of Asphodel, where ghosts could wander who were suited for neither of the above...The word hadescame into biblical usage when the Septuagint translators chose it to represent the Hebrew sheol, an Old Testament concept vastly different from the pagan Greek notions just outlined. Sheol, too, received all the dead...but the Old Testament has no specific division there involving either punishment or reward." (Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes [Houston: Providential Press, 1982], p. 205.)

We need to make sure that our ideas concerning hades come from the Bible and not Greek mythology. We have no problem using sheol the way the Old Testament used it, or hades, as the New Testament used it. Both refer to the dead who are unseen, and to national judgments.

The word gehenna (popularly mistranslated hell, as we’ll see) didn’t occur in the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint. Let’s take a few paragraphs to let the significance of that fact soak in. In previous editions of this material, I merely remarked that prominent Old Testament characters like David and Abraham never heard the term or its equivalent. They were never threatened with eternal torment in hell or heard anything like our popular concept now. However, Gehenna’s absence in the Old Testament is a much more serious omission than that. (The concepts in this section are suggested by Thomas B. Thayer in his 1855 Edition of Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment.)~Jesus' Teaching On Hell

Jesus taught more about hell than any other person in scripture. If you take everything He said about hell, which I will paste here if need be, it is undeniable what He is talking about

As I posted above, hell is a modern word....but even so....what's typically commonly interpreted as Jesus speaking of the afterlife is actually Jesus warning the Jews in the area of Jerusalem that they were headed for unstoppable fiery destruction of Jerusalem (that did happen in 70 AD).

------>To understand Jesus’ first use of gehenna in the Sermon on the Mount, we must first put his ministry, and that of his contemporary, John the Baptist, in their proper contexts. We saw there that Malachi prophesied the coming of John the Baptist, and that Jesus confirmed that fulfillment by John. John’s preaching consisted of announcements of an imminent (“the axe lieth at the root of the tree”) fiery judgment on Israel if she didn’t repent. This was the same fiery judgment of which Malachi had spoken, and said that John would announce. With this idea of imminent fiery judgment in the context, John continued in Mt. 3:11-12:

I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire: whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.

Al Maxey, a serious student of these matters, has noticed the following about the word translated “burn up” here:

This is the Greek word katakaio which means "to burn up; consume." It signifies to completely, utterly, totally destroy with fire. It is enlightening, in the context of this study, to note that this word is used in the LXX (Septuagint) in Exodus 3:2 where Moses beholds a burning bush --- "The bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was NOT consumed. (Al Maxey, “The Consuming Fire, Examining the Final Fate of the Wicked in Light of Biblical Language,” Reflections #46, June 6, 2003.)

Hence John and Jesus said the wicked would be consumed with unquenchable fire, yet we popularly read it to mean they will not be consumed, thinking folks in hell will no more be consumed than the burning bush was!

Remember this “unquenchable fire.” It is the fire spoken of by Malachi, John, and Jesus.~Jesus' Teaching On Hell

 

[mkgal1]

Do you agree that the best interpreter of scripture is scripture?

Absolutely. I don't know how much you are interested in reading (I already posted a LOT above and don't want to add more Scripture unless I know you're even interested).

I think this scripture refutes those ideas:

Revelation 14:9-11

Not if you understand that words like, "fire", "brimstone" and "torment" are terms used in purification....it all goes perfectly together.

Thayer's Lexicon lists the following as the primary meaning of the verb, basanizos:"to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal"

As the primary meaning of noun, theion Thayer's gives this: "divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease"

Friberg's Analytical Lexicon confirms this and states that theion was "anciently regarded as divine incense to purify and prevent contagion."

E.W. Bullinger defined theion as, "fire from heaven, (places touched by lightening were called "theia," as lightening leaves a sulphurous smell, and sulphur was used in heathen purification, it got the name of "theion.")

This definition is corraborated by the Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon which defines the verb theioo thus:
"to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god"

This makes sense considering that theion is the neuter singular of the adjective theios, which means "divine." Theios is, of course, derived from theos, the word for 'God' or 'gods'.

Now, etymology alone is not sufficient in determining the way a word is used in any given context, but when one couples these lexical facts with the contextual imagery of divine fire, one is reminded of the common Biblical attestation that God is a purifying fire. It is evident, then, that to be “tormented with fire and brimstone” is to be tried and purified by divine fire. Indeed, this is a central theme in the Book of Revelation:

 

[mkgal1]

----->When we look at historical context, we remember that Jesus clearly warned people about the coming judgement against Israel. At the beginning of Matthew 24 Jesus explicitly sets the stage for the coming destruction, warning them that even the temple will be destroyed (“not one stone will remain on another, it will all be thrown down.” V. 2) Jesus goes so far as to even tell them what the signs of the coming judgment (the end of the “age”) would look like: wars, rumors of wars, famine, earthquakes, etc. As Jesus describes this “great tribulation” with horrible persecution, he advises them that if they want to escape death at the hands of the Romans, they would need to flee to the hillsides when they see the “signs of the times” (verse 16).

This actual event and the fulfillment of Jesus’ warning came in AD70 when Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem along with her temple. Presumably, those who heeded Jesus’ warning in Matthew 24 of fleeing to the hillside would have survived the advancing destruction of the Roman army… but those who didn’t?

Well, those folks were killed. And guess what we know actually happened to their bodies? They were burned in… “hell”, just outside of Jerusalem– exactly as Jesus had warned. This makes the teachings of Jesus very practical when considering the historical and grammatical context: those who listened to him would live, and those who didn’t would end up burned in the Valley of Hinnom.


Read more at What Jesus Talked About When He Talked About Hell

 

[mkgal1]

It is clear from this passage that when Jesus is talking about entering life, He means eternal life. He is directly answering the question of the man who asked how he could obtain eternal life.

The way I see it is....by looking at Scripture in its entirety...."eternal life" is what's pertaining to God....all good things and what's eternal.....everlasting.

What's not pertaining to God...(selfishness, malice, violence...etc) is going to be purged in order for us all to be saved.

We are instructed to "die to self" daily....and what "dies" (or perishes) are things that are corrupt and destructive to His Kingdom.

 

[KrisPablos]

If one wishes for the other to have an everlasting torment, cause he is fueled by what he reads not knowing that what he understands is who he is, then God, Jesus Christ will be very little with them. Just a bit. Like the 50 dinars the man was forgiven.Or not at all.

Desire forgiveness, desire companion, desire kindness. And then you will see it clearly.

Also the wicked are our on inner sensations and desires.

One with God, Jesus Christ will be able to burn them without regret. Cause He is the only weapon, the sword, against them.But in him self. The other person who has them and is not fighting them he or she will be devoured by them. So pity them.
God, Jesus Christ will not punish them.
They are punishing them selfs, without realizing.
How can you be punished from someone who is the only salvation?

 

[thesunisout]

The way I see it is....by looking at Scripture in its entirety...."eternal life" is what's pertaining to God....all good things and what's eternal.....everlasting.

What's not pertaining to God...(selfishness, malice, violence...etc) is going to be purged in order for us all to be saved.

We are instructed to "die to self" daily....and what "dies" are things that are corrupt and destructive to His Kingdom.

That's the way you see it, but what did Jesus mean when He said it? Again, let's let scripture interpret scripture:

Luke 18:30

who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life

 

[thesunisout]

Absolutely. I don't know how much you are interested in reading (I already posted a LOT above and don't want to add more Scripture unless I know you're even interested).

Not if you understand that words like, "fire", "brimstone" and "torment" are terms used in purification....it all goes perfectly together.

Thayer's Lexicon lists the following as the primary meaning of the verb, basanizos:"to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal"

As the primary meaning of noun, theion Thayer's gives this: "divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease"

Friberg's Analytical Lexicon confirms this and states that theion was "anciently regarded as divine incense to purify and prevent contagion."

E.W. Bullinger defined theion as, "fire from heaven, (places touched by lightening were called "theia," as lightening leaves a sulphurous smell, and sulphur was used in heathen purification, it got the name of "theion.")

This definition is corraborated by the Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon which defines the verb theioo thus:
"to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god"

This makes sense considering that theion is the neuter singular of the adjective theios, which means "divine." Theios is, of course, derived from theos, the word for 'God' or 'gods'.

Now, etymology alone is not sufficient in determining the way a word is used in any given context, but when one couples these lexical facts with the contextual imagery of divine fire, one is reminded of the common Biblical attestation that God is a purifying fire. It is evident, then, that to be “tormented with fire and brimstone” is to be tried and purified by divine fire. Indeed, this is a central theme in the Book of Revelation:

You focus on the meaning of certain words and lose what the context of the entire verse is saying. You can't change the meaning of the verse by invalidating or redefining the words in it. The verse clearly has to do with judgment: "he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger"

The contortions you have to go through to reinterpret this verse to match you preferred theology! You have 10 Mount Everests to climb if you think you can do that with the whole book of revelation. You say hell isn't hell, wrath isn't wrath, punishment isn't punishment..it's all the opposite of what it means, but everything that you think is positive just means what it says it means. Strange how the translators only got the things wrong that you don't like!

 

[mkgal1]

You focus on the meaning of certain words and lose what the context of the entire verse is saying. You can't change the meaning of the verse by invalidating or redefining the words in it. The verse clearly has to do with judgment: "he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger"

There's no loss of context in my reading. It may seem that way to you as you have your own beliefs that bump into what I wrote. I also didn't "redefine" any words (I showed you the original Greek words and their meanings).

I believe in restorative justice....not punitive. I'm not "changing the meaning".....just YOUR interpretation. Purification IS judgment.

 

[thesunisout]

No....it's the other way around (hellenization came first). I only mentioned Dante's Inferno first as that's what's mostly influenced our cultural view of the afterlife now. As culture changes.....so do some of our views of Scripture.


If it were so "clear"....then why are there 3 accepted views of the afterlife in Christianity?

The truth doesn't change, though, and your assertion that the church has always believed in an eternal hell was due to greek influence has not been proved. It's clear from the scripture, and when that's pointed out to you, you think if you can redefine certain words, it changes the facts. It doesn't change the context of what is being said, and it doesn't help your theory about greek influence.

Universalism, is and always has been, heretical. It's not an accepted view of the orthodox church; it may be an accepted view of some backslidden denominations.

Conditionalism, that is something that people can agree to disagree on them. It gets down, like this, to useless arguments about words. You don't believe what is written so you change the meaning to suit your theology.

The word, "hell" is a modern word when used to refer to afterlife (so......no, Jesus never used the word "hell").

----->Hell: No such word was in their vocabulary, and they knew of no such place. No word with the meaning that the English word Hell has now was used, or known about unto long after the Bible. It is not in Greek literature in New Testaments times or before, first century writers did not use it, Josephus, or any other historian of that time did not use it, it is not in the Septuagint. A place where God will torment the lost forever after the Judgment Day was not known about. the concept of the place called hell, or the name hell is not in the bible, and does not occur in any writing of either the Hebrews or the Greeks until long after the Bible. The Old Testament Hebrew, or the New Testament Greek, has no word that is even close to today’s English word “hell.” How do we know about this place called hell? Where did hell come from? It is not in the Bible. Neither is the name “hell” in the Bible. Where did it come from? Not by faith that comes by hearing God’s word. It is from the doctrines and precepts of men [Matthew 15:9]. It was not used in the first century because it was a word that was not in their vocabulary, and a place they know nothing about. (William Robert West, If the Soul or Spirit Is Immortal, There Can Be No Resurrection from the Dead,Third Edition, originally published as The Resurrection and Immortality [Bloomington, IN: Author House, September 2006] p. 138.)

The words used that were interpreted to "hell" were, "sheol, hades, and gehenna".

Sheol, a word whose root meaning is “unseen.” The King James Version translates sheol as “hell” 31 times, “the grave” 31 times (since someone in the grave is unseen), and “the pit” three times.

Yet in the Old Testament sheol was not exclusively a place of punishment, for faithful Jacob was there (Gen. 37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 31). Righteous Job also longed for it in Job 14:13. David spoke of going to sheol in Ps. 49:15 and Jesus went there, Ps. 16:10 and Acts 2:24-31. In all these cases, these men were “unseen” because they were dead.

Many times the Bible uses the word sheol of national judgments, i.e., the vanishing of a nation. In Isa. 14:13, 15, Isaiah said Babylon would go to sheol, and she vanished. In Ezk. 26:19-21, Tyre so vanished in sheol. Likewise, in the New Testament, in Mt. 11:23, 12:41, Lk. 10:15, and 11:29-32, Jesus said that Capernaum would so disappear. These nations and cities didn’t go to a particular location, but they were going to disappear, and they did. They were destroyed. Thus, sheol is used commonly of national judgments in both the Old and New Testaments.

The New Testament equivalent of sheol is hades, which occurs only eleven times. Like its synonym sheol, the King James Version translates the word “hell.” However, the correct translation is hades, or the unseen. The Bible doesn’t use hades exclusively for a place of punishment. Luke 16 pictures righteous Lazarus there. Acts 2:27, 31 says Jesus went there. In 1 Cor. 15:55, Paul used the same word when he said, “O grave, where is thy victory?” In Rev. 1:18, Jesus said he had the controlling keys of death and hades, the unseen, and in Rev. 6:8, death and hades followed the pale horse. Finally, in Rev. 20:13, 14, death and hades gave up the dead that were in them, and were then cast into the lake of fire. These verses illustrate that hades refers to anything that is unseen.

Like its companion word in the Old Testament, hades was also plainly used of national judgments in the New Testament. In Mt. 11:23 and Lk. 10:15, Jesus said Capernaum would go down into hades, i.e., it was going to vanish. In Mt. 12:41 and Lk. 11:29-32, Jesus said his generation of Jews was going to fall.

About hades in Greek mythology, Edward Fudge said:

"In Greek mythology Hades was the god of the underworld, then the name of the nether world itself. Charon ferried the souls of the dead across the rivers Styx or Acheron into this abode, where the watchdog Cerberus guarded the gate so none might escape. The pagan myth contained all the elements for medieval eschatology: there was the pleasant Elyusium, the gloomy and miserable tartarus, and even the Plains of Asphodel, where ghosts could wander who were suited for neither of the above...The word hadescame into biblical usage when the Septuagint translators chose it to represent the Hebrew sheol, an Old Testament concept vastly different from the pagan Greek notions just outlined. Sheol, too, received all the dead...but the Old Testament has no specific division there involving either punishment or reward." (Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes [Houston: Providential Press, 1982], p. 205.)

We need to make sure that our ideas concerning hades come from the Bible and not Greek mythology. We have no problem using sheol the way the Old Testament used it, or hades, as the New Testament used it. Both refer to the dead who are unseen, and to national judgments.

The word gehenna (popularly mistranslated hell, as we’ll see) didn’t occur in the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint. Let’s take a few paragraphs to let the significance of that fact soak in. In previous editions of this material, I merely remarked that prominent Old Testament characters like David and Abraham never heard the term or its equivalent. They were never threatened with eternal torment in hell or heard anything like our popular concept now. However, Gehenna’s absence in the Old Testament is a much more serious omission than that. (The concepts in this section are suggested by Thomas B. Thayer in his 1855 Edition of Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment.)~Jesus' Teaching On Hell



As I posted above, hell is a modern word....but even so....what's typically commonly interpreted as Jesus speaking of the afterlife is actually Jesus warning the Jews in the area of Jerusalem that they were headed for unstoppable fiery destruction of Jerusalem (that did happen in 70 AD).

------>To understand Jesus’ first use of gehenna in the Sermon on the Mount, we must first put his ministry, and that of his contemporary, John the Baptist, in their proper contexts. We saw there that Malachi prophesied the coming of John the Baptist, and that Jesus confirmed that fulfillment by John. John’s preaching consisted of announcements of an imminent (“the axe lieth at the root of the tree”) fiery judgment on Israel if she didn’t repent. This was the same fiery judgment of which Malachi had spoken, and said that John would announce. With this idea of imminent fiery judgment in the context, John continued in Mt. 3:11-12:

I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire: whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.

Al Maxey, a serious student of these matters, has noticed the following about the word translated “burn up” here:

This is the Greek word katakaio which means "to burn up; consume." It signifies to completely, utterly, totally destroy with fire. It is enlightening, in the context of this study, to note that this word is used in the LXX (Septuagint) in Exodus 3:2 where Moses beholds a burning bush --- "The bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was NOT consumed. (Al Maxey, “The Consuming Fire, Examining the Final Fate of the Wicked in Light of Biblical Language,” Reflections #46, June 6, 2003.)

Hence John and Jesus said the wicked would be consumed with unquenchable fire, yet we popularly read it to mean they will not be consumed, thinking folks in hell will no more be consumed than the burning bush was!

Remember this “unquenchable fire.” It is the fire spoken of by Malachi, John, and Jesus.~Jesus' Teaching On Hell

Changing the word doesn't change the meaning of the text

 

[thesunisout]

There's no loss of context in my reading. It may seem that way to you as you have your own beliefs that bump into what I wrote.

I believe in restorative justice....not punitive. I'm not "changing the meaning".....just YOUR interpretation. Purification IS judgment.

Okay, that's fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree. God bless

 

[mkgal1]

That's the way you see it, but what did Jesus mean when He said it? Again, let's let scripture interpret scripture:

Luke 18:30

who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life

I'm not presumptuous enough to make the claim that I know for certain what Jesus meant (is why I phrase things like, "the way I see it is....").

I am not sure what you're asking. This is what that passage says...going back a ways as well (I don't see anything about "who won't receive")

When Jesus saw this, he said, “It’s very hard for the wealthy to enter God’s kingdom! 25 It’s easier for a camel to squeeze through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter God’s kingdom.”

26 Those who heard this said, “Then who can be saved?”

27 Jesus replied, “What is impossible for humans is possible for God.”

28 Peter said, “Look, we left everything we own and followed you.”

29 Jesus said to them, “I assure you that anyone who has left house, husband, wife, brothers, sisters, parents, or children because of God’s kingdom 30 will receive many times more in this age and eternal life in the coming age.”~Luke 18

From the Episcopal church:
According to Jesus there is this age, this present aion— the one we are living in— and then a coming age, also called “the world to come” or simply “eternal life.”


It is this understanding of “eternal life”, “life of the age to come”, that is closest to what people in our culture normally think of when we think of the word “heaven”. But there are significant differences between our culture’s stereotypical vision of “heaven” and the Biblical understanding. Any view of heaven as some ethereal place floating in the sky, some place that is totally different from this creation in which we live our life on this earth, is not the Bible’s understanding of “the age to come.” In the Biblical understanding, the age to come will be a coming together of heaven and earth, a fulfillment of the prayer that God’s kingdom come and God’s will be done on earth as in heaven. In the age to come, all of creation will come to its transformed fullness, as we read in the prophet Isaiah. “The wolf will lie down with the lamb” (11:6) and “Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore” (2:4). Richard Rohr speaks of this age to come in terms of Adam and Eve returning to the Garden of Eden.


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[mkgal1]

Universalism, is and always has been, heretical. It's not an accepted view of the orthodox church; it may be an accepted view of some backslidden denominations.

Not so.....this is the list of heresies that I'm aware of.
Heresies | CARM.org

Universal Reconciliation has never been declared a heresy at any church council, but it's also a topic we can't get dogmatic over either way ("but we dare to hope all will be saved").

This is the Greek Orthodox theology of reconciliation (apokatastasis):
Apocatastasis - OrthodoxWiki

....and in case you weren't aware of the history...the EO church is about as far from a "backslidden" denomination as possible: History of the Eastern Orthodox Church - Wikipedia

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
Apocatastasis
(Greek, apokatastasis; Latin, restitutio in pristinum statum, restoration to the original condition).

A name given in the history of theology to the doctrine which teaches that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of salvation; in a special way, the devils and lost souls.

This doctrine was explicitly taught by St. Gregory of Nyssa, and in more than one passage. It first occurs in his "De animâ et resurrectione" (P.G., XLVI, cols. 100, 101) where, in speaking of the punishment by fire assigned to souls after death, he compares it to the process whereby gold is refined in a furnace, through being separated from the dross with which it is alloyed. The punishment by fire is not, therefore, an end in itself, but is ameliorative; the very reason of its infliction is to separate the good from the evil in the soul. The process, moreover, is a painful one; the sharpness and duration of the pain are in proportion to the evil of which each soul is guilty; the flame lasts so long as there is any evil left to destroy. A time, then, will come, when all evil shall cease to be since it has no existence of its own apart from the free will, in which it inheres; when every free will shall be turned to God, shall be in God, and evil shall have no more wherein to exist. Thus, St. Gregory of Nyssa continues, shall the word of St. Paul be fulfilled: Deus erit omnia in omnibus (1 Corinthians 15:28), which means that evil shall, ultimately, have an end, since, if God be all in all, there is no longer any place for evil (cols. 104, 105; cf. col. 152). St. Gregory recurs to the same thought of the final annihilation of evil, in his "Oratio catechetica", ch. xxvi; the same comparison of fire which purges gold of its impurities is to be found there; so also shall the power of God purge nature of that which is preternatural, namely, of evil. Such purification will be painful, as is a surgical operation, but the restoration will ultimately be complete. And, when this restoration shall have been accomplished (he eis to archaion apokatastasis ton nyn en kakia keimenon), all creation shall give thanks to God, both the souls which have had no need of purification, and those that shall have needed it.~CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apocatastasis

 

[mkgal1]

Changing the word doesn't change the meaning of the text

It was modern translators that changed the text....and yes, it does change the meaning, because Jesus wasn't speaking of the afterlife as it's interpreted by most people today. Maybe you didn't read my entire post?

 

[mkgal1]

On "obtaining eternal life"? I think this is a great explanation:

 

[Thomas1987]

I know it is written that God punishes but as I found God, Jesus Christ i can see that He can't do that. The one who punishes is the devil. It's when you feel something that is sweet, pleasurable and you commit your soul to that something and start to go on that road but realize, later, on your surprise, that you are infront of a dead end . The devil or, in psychological terms can be called "The sadist within", is the one who enjoys to see you suffer.
So when you go on that road God, Jesus Christ won't punish you but the devil.

The good news is that God, Jesus Christ is much, much stronger than the devil. It can't even be compared. So following His path will make the devil and all of his efforts pointless and the devil will fear you.


Thank you God for letting me see this and for letting me know how great you are. I love you more than anything in the world.

No you have watched too much TV , devil does not rule in hell he is ruling on earth right now , Jesus has keys of hell . Hell was made for devil and his angels because price was not paid for them and they will die in thier sins , people who reject free eternal life ( price paid by Christ on cross ) are going with devil into hell aswell .

Yes Jesus is Kinsman redeemer , his job is to let captive free but also to do justice and avenge , he is avenger of blood and when he return he will slay his enemies so his garmet will be covered in blood .

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


It's all from New Testament by the way .

 

[mkgal1]

The truth doesn't change, though, and your assertion that the church has always believed in an eternal hell was due to greek influence has not been proved

You needed to read my posts to see that I had addressed that. BTW....the entire "church" hasn't always believed in an eternal hell (only a fragment has).

 

[Hillsage]

You needed to read my posts to see that I had addressed that. BTW....the entire "church" hasn't always believed in an eternal hell (only a fragment has).

You've done a wonderful job of putting out all the cookies one needs, to come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

[Doug Melven]

If this were the true message God was desiring for us to understand.....then can you show me one recorded speech from the Bible of Jesus' warning people of an eternal damnation of torment?

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Jesus was quite serious about eternal punishment.

Paul believed Jesus was serious about eternal punishment.
2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

As soon as you leave this earth, you get no more chances to repent.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I truly wish you guys were right who preach against eternal punishment.
But, the plain truth of Scripture says otherwise.
Matthew 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.