signs of a true apostle

Major1

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You are correct because the operative word is "seeking signs". No ministry what won thousands to Christ, either in the Evangelical, Holiness, or Pentecostal movements ever sought signs and wonders as their first priority. They sought souls for Christ. If you look carefully at the ministries of Jonathan Edwards, Charles Finney, William Seymour, Edward Irving, Maria Woodworth-Etter, Kathryn Kuhlman, you will see that their first priority was to win souls for Christ. That was their passion. The signs and wonders that came were a byproduct of the power of God that came as the result of the preaching of repentance. This put signs and wonders at God's discretion not theirs. The first sign of the power of God being present is the conviction of sin and unbelievers crying out to God for mercy and salvation. This is what happened with Maria Woodworth-Etter. When she had her tent meetings, unbelievers up to 20 miles away were convicted of their sin and came almost running to her tent to receive Christ.

When It says that Paul preached the gospel among the pagans with signs and wonders in Acts, the signs and wonders happened among the pagans to show that the power of Christ was greater than that of their own demon gods, and to draw them to Christ. There is no evidence in Acts that signs and wonders happened in the Christian meetings. They happened out among the pagan unbelievers. When the group under persecution in Jerusalem got together and prayed, the place was shaken, they were all filled with the Spirit, and spoke the Word with boldness - to whom? The unbelievers of course! They asked that signs and wonders be done in the name of Jesus. Where? Among the unsaved! So, when there is a "full-gospel" crusade in your town, who are the ones who attend it? 90% Christian believers and those they invite to it. I attended a massed crusade a couple of years ago in Auckland with 2000 people in the church building. Most were Christians. There were around 40 people who came for to receive Christ. A large crowd came forward for their "touch from God". I didn't see any signs and wonders, although some said it was a great meeting with wonderful results. It is interesting that the preacher did have thousands come to Christ in Africa when he had over a million unbelievers gather in a large field to hear the gospel. In Auckland, he basically preached to the choir!

John G Lake, a pioneer Pentecostal, had remarkable results when he went to South Africa and preached the gospel to mainly unbelievers. Smith Wigglesworth was the same, his passion was for souls for Christ, and the remarkable healings resulted in thousands turning to Christ. Maria Woodworth-Etter did not want to pray for healing at first because she felt it was a distraction from her gospel preaching. The Lord assured her that if she prayed for healing, even more souls would come to Christ, which they did.

These are so far different from the "mega-churches" full of believers, seeking for and pretending that signs and wonders are occurring in those churches. When in the book of Acts, and in any subsequent revival, the signs and wonders happened among unbelievers under the preaching of repentance. In the Welsh Revival, they did have to lay off great numbers of the police force in some areas, because of the significant reduction of crime, and many bar owners went out of business, because fewer people patronised them.

So, if people are seeking signs and wonders in their churches, they are barking up the wrong tree. They would be better off praying that the power of God would go with them as they got out where the unbelievers are and shared the gospel with them. Instead of praying, "Lord bring signs and wonders into our church", they should be praying, "Give us boldness to share Your gospel to the lost and let signs and wonders be done [among the lost] in the Name of Jesus."

Oscar, I love you brother but and your loyalty to the Pentecostal religion.

However, you must understand that everything you hear is not actually the truth. People do actually LIE and stretch the truth.

I want you to consider John C. Lake who you just used as an example.

From the Newspaper, "The Healer- Dr. John Lake" we read........
“Dr. Lake indicated that at least one hundred thousand people were ministered to each year either by car, telephone, telegraph, letter, or cable” (The Healer: Dr. John Graham Lake
).

Now just sit there in your chair for a moment and think about that. That is 100,000 people a year he saw to individually.
That is incredible- this is approx. 333 a day (with 1 day a week off). This would be 15 people every hour for twenty hours each day. And the number would be far greater if he had a regular day of 10 hours; Do you actually believe that??? Does it sound reasonable????

Could there be some truth being exaggerated do ya think??????????

Oscar, about 30 years in a revival meeting in Cullman Al., a dear sweet Christian elderly lady gave a testimony. She said that during the night, Jesus Christ came to her bedroom and personally pulled two teeth that were giving her pain. Then she said that He replaced those teeth with two GOLD teeth and she did not wake up and she had no pain.

Do you think she may have been exaggerating just a little bit?????

You see brother, some people want to be known as one who is close to God and has experienced great things from God and will stretch reality in order to do so.
 
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Major1

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I see that you are a Christian with no denomination associated to your faith...isn't that non-denomination? Would it be better if I change my denomination of faith to Christian...ok.....no problem.

You certainly could do that.

It probably should be "Independent".
 
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Major1

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The long ending to Mark is not likely the correct ending since there are other endings including just stopping at verse 8, thus making theology on that text is poor exegesis. James places the responsibility for faith on the healers or elders, not on others. For example, the dead man who was thrown into a cave and was resurrected...

I am betting there were just as many people percentage wise who lacked faith as there is today. Your statement is just an excuse by those who teach poor theology.

Ephesians 4:13
New International Version
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Correct.

In addition, if we would read verse 14 of Mark 16, it is clear that Jesus was speaking to the ELEVEN APOSTLES!

They, the Apostles had the sign gifts.
They, the Apostles healed the sick.
They, the Apostles raised the dead.
They, the Apostles drank poisoned water and lived.
They, the Apostles were bitten by snakes and survived.
They, the Apostles spoke in the languages wherever they went.
 
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Major1

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I read somewhere that another meaning of Apostle is one sent out like a Missionary. The Pastor must have the great commission in mind that every believer is expected to share their faith.

That is correct.............
"a person who carries a message or is employed to carry messages.
synonyms: courier · runner · envoy · emissary · agent · go-between ·

The Great Commission was given to the ELEVEN Apostles by Jesus.
THEY had the "Sign Gifts" and when the last one died, so did the sign gifts.

WHY?

Because the Bible was completed!
 
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Major1

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This is one part of showing the true intent and the heart of why they sought them....but to address the signs of a true apostle is that signs and wonders will follow the preaching of the Word. This is not sign- seeking this is cause and effect of the preaching of the Word.

There can not be any TRUE Apostles today in that they can do signs and wonders my dear friend. It appears that many people have no problem adding biblical titles to their names. Every title requires qualifications that must be met first today we will look at the Title Apostleship

A True Apostle as seen and recorded in the Bible must have...........

1).
Candidates needed to have been with Jesus during the whole three years that Jesus was among them.

2).
He needed to be an eyewitness of Jesus’ baptism when the Heavenly Father validated Jesus’ person and work.

3).
Apostles had to witnessed Jesus sacrifice Himself on the cross and to have seen Jesus walk, talk, and eat among the disciples again after His resurrection.

Now, there is absolutely No biblical evidence that exists to indicate that these original apostles were replaced when they died. See Acts 12:1–2, for example.

Jesus appointed the apostles to do the founding work of the Church, and foundations only need to be laid once. After the apostles’ deaths, other offices besides apostleship, not requiring an eyewitness relationship with Jesus, would carry on the work. WE as followers of Jesus Christ must obey and get this right. I do not believe we have anyone in the world the age of Jesus Christ today therefore there are no "eye witness's" alive.

Now some people confuse the word "Apostle" with the meaning of a MESSENGER.

Then YES, there are messengers today but those messengers are not able to do the sings and wonders as did the original APostles.
 
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lamb7

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2 Corinthians 12:12
The signs of a true apostle were performed among you in all patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.

Many people are claiming to be an apostle today, where are their signs, wonders and mighty works that are documented by independent sources??


Hmm good question! I was thinking about this... it seemed the signs and wonders were mainly in Israel or at least started there, and then the Jews went to the Samaritans and the other Gentile nations if I am remembering that right. (Acts?)

Jews required the signs. All the Prophets were Jewish Men, and the 144K will be Jewish Men during the Trib. Seems the Trib is focused again on Israel God trying to win back the remement as He promised. ( I am aware women can prophesy but that word is loaded in meaning)

Oh and the 2 witnesses will be Jewish too I think.. I am seeing a theme, Jews and Israel. They need the signs since they are blind. We believers are already believe on Christ as savior but the Jews need signs to believe on Him. Jews require a sign. Ever since Moses really.

I feel IMHO from seeing the pattern in scripture, it started with the Jews and will end with them.

Sorry if my reply is kinda random thoughts mixed into a few sentences!
 
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lamb7

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Hmm good question! I was thinking about this... it seemed the signs and wonders were mainly in Israel or at least started there, and then the Jews went to the Samaritans and the other Gentile nations if I am remembering that right. (Acts?)

Jews required the signs. All the Prophets were Jewish Men, and the 144K will be Jewish Men during the Trib. Seems the Trib is focused again on Israel God trying to win back the remement as He promised. ( I am aware women can prophesy but that word is loaded in meaning)

Oh and the 2 witnesses will be Jewish too I think.. I am seeing a theme, Jews and Israel. They need the signs since they are blind. We believers are already believe on Christ as savior but the Jews need signs to believe on Him. Jews require a sign. Ever since Moses really.

I feel IMHO it started with the Jews and will end with them.

Sorry if my reply is kinda random thoughts mixed into a few sentences!
 
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lamb7

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1 In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.


This love it friend!
 
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lamb7

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There is a very inspiring book called "Signs and Wonders" which is the life and ministry of Maria Woodworth-Etter a late 19th and early 20th Century evangelist. Also read about Kathryn Khulman as well. You will see what those women of faith went through and how they prayed through with God to make their ministries very powerful for God. They had to start somewhere, and they had to grow through some very challenging periods of their lives, but they were determined against all odds to see souls won for Christ. If you are walking with God to prepare yourself for a soul-winning ministry, you are in very good company. Never sell yourself short and don't let others, especially "spiritual" men, limit your potential in Christ. These two women didn't and even their own husbands weren't able to stop them having a ministry of the Lord. Kathryn Khuman's husband tried to block her ministry in the early days, but she had married him against the advice of all her mentors. She realised that she had to separate from him to continue her calling in Christ. She was rejected for a long while because of her divorce, but a small church took her on and helped her develop her ministry and the rest was history.


I have a question please don't be mad. I am a female saying this... I don't know those women you listed so I cannot judge them or their ministry or their heart. ♥

BUT I read women are supposed to keep silent and not lead? I am conflicted on this issue. People like to make all of Corinthians apply today EXCEPT the women keep silent. Can we pick and choose? Or is it possible that book was written to the Corinthians?

I do notice a focus on women in the Pentecostal denomination... so just curious. (women are very smart DUH ;) )

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.


God made Adam first then Eve from Adam..... God's original plan of design?????

1 Timothy 2:13-14 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Adam does get blame for not stepping in on the matter of eve and the serpent.

I am not sexist just curious I get into A LOT of trouble bringing this up in this day in age.

Any advice or input would be great. Thanks
 
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Major1

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Hmm good question! I was thinking about this... it seemed the signs and wonders were mainly in Israel or at least started there, and then the Jews went to the Samaritans and the other Gentile nations if I am remembering that right. (Acts?)

Jews required the signs. All the Prophets were Jewish Men, and the 144K will be Jewish Men during the Trib. Seems the Trib is focused again on Israel God trying to win back the remement as He promised. ( I am aware women can prophesy but that word is loaded in meaning)

Oh and the 2 witnesses will be Jewish too I think.. I am seeing a theme, Jews and Israel. They need the signs since they are blind. We believers are already believe on Christ as savior but the Jews need signs to believe on Him. Jews require a sign. Ever since Moses really.

I feel IMHO from seeing the pattern in scripture, it started with the Jews and will end with them.

Sorry if my reply is kinda random thoughts mixed into a few sentences!

I agree with your comment.

Remember, Jesus came to seek and save the JEWS. It was only after they killed Him that
God then turned to the Gentiles.
 
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Major1

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I have a question please don't be mad. I am a female saying this... I don't know those women you listed so I cannot judge them or their ministry or their heart. ♥

BUT I read women are supposed to keep silent and not lead? I am conflicted on this issue. People like to make all of Corinthians apply today EXCEPT the women keep silent. Can we pick and choose? Or is it possible that book was written to the Corinthians?

I do notice a focus on women in the Pentecostal denomination... so just curious. (women are very smart DUH ;) )

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.


God made Adam first then Eve from Adam..... God's original plan of design?????

1 Timothy 2:13-14 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Adam does get blame for not stepping in on the matter of eve and the serpent.

I am not sexist just curious I get into A LOT of trouble bringing this up in this day in age.

Any advice or input would be great. Thanks

Now you did not ask me but I will give you the Bible's teaching.

What you see today in the different religions where women are seen as Pastors is un-Biblical. They are doing it because they want to.

1 Timothy 3:1-2..........
"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

That is what the Bible says. Man does not mean "Humanity" and even if it did, it would not answer the question of "Husband of one wife".

1 Corth. 14:34 is in my opinion Paul telling the women that they can not "speak in tongues" in the church.

If you read chapters 12-14 of 1 Corth., the context is all about "Gifts" and how they apply or do not apply.
 
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lamb7

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I agree with your comment.

Remember, Jesus came to seek and save the JEWS. It was only after they killed Him that
God then turned to the Gentiles.

Yes! I think of the run in with the Canaanite women, who's child is demon possessed, where Jesus says He came for the Lost Sheep Of Israel FIRST. The Gospels are really about them First it seems.

Matthew 15:22-29 King James Version (KJV)
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.


Matthew Matthew 10:5-10:6
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
 
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lamb7

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Now you did not ask me but I will give you the Bible's teaching.

What you see today in the different religions where women are seen as Pastors is un-Biblical. They are doing it because they want to.

1 Timothy 3:1-2..........
"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

That is what the Bible says. Man does not mean "Humanity" and even if it did, it would not answer the question of "Husband of one wife".

1 Corth. 14:34 is in my opinion Paul telling the women that they can not "speak in tongues" in the church.

If you read chapters 12-14 of 1 Corth., the context is all about "Gifts" and how they apply or do not apply.

Anyone can answer Reading!
 
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lamb7

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Now you did not ask me but I will give you the Bible's teaching.

What you see today in the different religions where women are seen as Pastors is un-Biblical. They are doing it because they want to.

1 Timothy 3:1-2..........
"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

That is what the Bible says. Man does not mean "Humanity" and even if it did, it would not answer the question of "Husband of one wife".

1 Corth. 14:34 is in my opinion Paul telling the women that they can not "speak in tongues" in the church.

If you read chapters 12-14 of 1 Corth., the context is all about "Gifts" and how they apply or do not apply.


RIGHT I knew I was missing that Timothy response! I have heard of the Women being quiet to be about tongues but was not sure if it meant "speaking in general" Interesting.
 
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Major1

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RIGHT I knew I was missing that Timothy response! I have heard of the Women being quiet to be about tongues but was not sure if it meant "speaking in general" Interesting.

We know from other Scriptures that women did speak publically, Phoebe being one of them. So the only logical answer to 1 Corth. 14:34 is that Paul does not want them to speak in TONGUES in the church.

Also, in those days, there were several "Pagan Cults" that had women Priests and the fear was that it could creep into the church as well.
 
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We know from other Scriptures that women did speak publically, Phoebe being one of them. So the only logical answer to 1 Corth. 14:34 is that Paul does not want them to speak in TONGUES in the church.

Also, in those days, there were several "Pagan Cults" that had women Priests and the fear was that it could creep into the church as well.

Ahhh ok makes sense, yea I am aware of the pagan cults of the oracle of delphi etc... good points!
 
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I have a question please don't be mad. I am a female saying this... I don't know those women you listed so I cannot judge them or their ministry or their heart. ♥

BUT I read women are supposed to keep silent and not lead? I am conflicted on this issue. People like to make all of Corinthians apply today EXCEPT the women keep silent. Can we pick and choose? Or is it possible that book was written to the Corinthians?

I do notice a focus on women in the Pentecostal denomination... so just curious. (women are very smart DUH ;) )

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.


God made Adam first then Eve from Adam..... God's original plan of design?????

1 Timothy 2:13-14 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Adam does get blame for not stepping in on the matter of eve and the serpent.

I am not sexist just curious I get into A LOT of trouble bringing this up in this day in age.

Any advice or input would be great. Thanks
Paul never gave any similar teaching to any of the other churches. He gave teaching to Timothy about women, but that was much later on, and I suspect that there was more discrimination against women then than before. For the Corinthians, Paul was giving corrective teaching about things the Corinthians were doing wrong. However, in chapter 14, which was concerning the correct use of tongues, the verse about women seems out of place, and it Paul actually did write it, it might more have been the women's misuse of tongues and silly questions that might have been disrupting the order of the meetings. However, in the original manuscripts the note about women was a "gloss" in the margin and it was a later copyist who inserted into the main text. Perhaps it might have been written into the margin by a scribe who had questions about women because his personal belief was that women should not have a speaking role in the Church. And, good hermeneutics does not allow an important doctrine like the role of women in the Church to be based on a single verse that seems out of context with the rest of the chapter.
 
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Oscar, I love you brother but and your loyalty to the Pentecostal religion.

However, you must understand that everything you hear is not actually the truth. People do actually LIE and stretch the truth.

I want you to consider John C. Lake who you just used as an example.

From the Newspaper, "The Healer- Dr. John Lake" we read........
“Dr. Lake indicated that at least one hundred thousand people were ministered to each year either by car, telephone, telegraph, letter, or cable” (The Healer: Dr. John Graham Lake
).

Now just sit there in your chair for a moment and think about that. That is 100,000 people a year he saw to individually.
That is incredible- this is approx. 333 a day (with 1 day a week off). This would be 15 people every hour for twenty hours each day. And the number would be far greater if he had a regular day of 10 hours; Do you actually believe that??? Does it sound reasonable????

Could there be some truth being exaggerated do ya think??????????

Oscar, about 30 years in a revival meeting in Cullman Al., a dear sweet Christian elderly lady gave a testimony. She said that during the night, Jesus Christ came to her bedroom and personally pulled two teeth that were giving her pain. Then she said that He replaced those teeth with two GOLD teeth and she did not wake up and she had no pain.

Do you think she may have been exaggerating just a little bit?????

You see brother, some people want to be known as one who is close to God and has experienced great things from God and will stretch reality in order to do so.
You might have missed the point that he knew that there were too many people coming for ministry that he could cope with, so he trained a team of divine healing technicians to assist him with the workload. He was the only healing evangelist who did this. To receive the DHT certification, a student had to spend time with a sick person and achieve healing for that person through prayer and the healing had to be documented by a medical professional as achieved through prayer and not normal medicine. He was very strict about that, and so having a team of fully trained and certificated DHTs showed that his and their ministries actually worked. I have taken the time to read his biography and his book of complete teaching. Yes, I do believe that some can stretch the truth, but having a copy of John Lake's DHT manual that he used as the text for his training, I don't see any exaggerations at all. It is quite practical and straight forward.

Concerning the testimony of the elderly woman and the gold teeth, if it caused the whole town in which she lived to turn to Christ, the crime rate significantly decreased through the vast numbers convicted of sin, then I would be more inclined to believe it.
 
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That is correct.............
"a person who carries a message or is employed to carry messages.
synonyms: courier · runner · envoy · emissary · agent · go-between ·

The Great Commission was given to the ELEVEN Apostles by Jesus.
THEY had the "Sign Gifts" and when the last one died, so did the sign gifts.

WHY?

Because the Bible was completed!
How then how does that account for healing, prophecy, miracles, and casting out of demons was commonplace in the Early Church right through to the Third Century? I can imagine a group of people being ministered to for healing and the first one got healed and halfway through the ministry for the next one, news of the Apostle John's death came through, and so the sick man was told, "Sorry you can't be healed now, the last Apostle has died." Doesn't that sound silly to you?
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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RIGHT I knew I was missing that Timothy response! I have heard of the Women being quiet to be about tongues but was not sure if it meant "speaking in general" Interesting.
The Corinthian verse about women was a marginal note written by a scribe in a 4th Century manuscript. It may never have appeared in earlier manuscripts at all. By the fourth century most believed that ministry was for men only. Evidence from Acts shows it was different in practice. The verse was added in from the margin in a much later manuscript, probably around the 10th Century where most manuscripts supporting our translations of the Bible come from.
 
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