signs of a true apostle

[Heart2Soul]

I see that you are "Non-Denominational" but what you just said is Spoken like a true Charismatic Pentecostal.

You said a LOT of things and ran them all together so it is really hard to separate your comments.

If you would like to do them one at a time I would be glad to talk with you.

In your 1st (and only paragraph) you said........
"....and I don't know what church you go to but there are signs, wonders and miracles in many churches...perhaps broaden your search."

The question then must be, WHY do you think that there needs to be signs, wonders and miracles????

Have you considered Romanns 1:16 that says........
"The gospel is the power of God unto salvation."

The gospel, not signs and wonders. Paul says in 1 Cor, 1:22-23......
"Jews demand signs, Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified . . . the power of God . . .".

The "word of the cross is . . . the power of God" in 1 Cor. 1:18.

Sign-seeking is a diversion from the power of Christ crucified. Thus Jesus himself said, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign" (Matthew 12:39; 16:4).

This is one part of showing the true intent and the heart of why they sought them....but to address the signs of a true apostle is that signs and wonders will follow the preaching of the Word. This is not sign- seeking this is cause and effect of the preaching of the Word.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I see that you are "Non-Denominational" but what you just said is Spoken like a true Charismatic Pentecostal.

I see that you are a Christian with no denomination associated to your faith...isn't that non-denomination? Would it be better if I change my denomination of faith to Christian...ok.....no problem.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I see that you are "Non-Denominational" but what you just said is Spoken like a true Charismatic Pentecostal.

You said a LOT of things and ran them all together so it is really hard to separate your comments.

If you would like to do them one at a time I would be glad to talk with you.

In your 1st (and only paragraph) you said........
"....and I don't know what church you go to but there are signs, wonders and miracles in many churches...perhaps broaden your search."

The question then must be, WHY do you think that there needs to be signs, wonders and miracles????

Have you considered Romanns 1:16 that says........
"The gospel is the power of God unto salvation."

The gospel, not signs and wonders. Paul says in 1 Cor, 1:22-23......
"Jews demand signs, Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified . . . the power of God . . .".

The "word of the cross is . . . the power of God" in 1 Cor. 1:18.

Sign-seeking is a diversion from the power of Christ crucified. Thus Jesus himself said, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign" (Matthew 12:39; 16:4).

You are correct because the operative word is "seeking signs". No ministry what won thousands to Christ, either in the Evangelical, Holiness, or Pentecostal movements ever sought signs and wonders as their first priority. They sought souls for Christ. If you look carefully at the ministries of Jonathan Edwards, Charles Finney, William Seymour, Edward Irving, Maria Woodworth-Etter, Kathryn Kuhlman, you will see that their first priority was to win souls for Christ. That was their passion. The signs and wonders that came were a byproduct of the power of God that came as the result of the preaching of repentance. This put signs and wonders at God's discretion not theirs. The first sign of the power of God being present is the conviction of sin and unbelievers crying out to God for mercy and salvation. This is what happened with Maria Woodworth-Etter. When she had her tent meetings, unbelievers up to 20 miles away were convicted of their sin and came almost running to her tent to receive Christ.

When It says that Paul preached the gospel among the pagans with signs and wonders in Acts, the signs and wonders happened among the pagans to show that the power of Christ was greater than that of their own demon gods, and to draw them to Christ. There is no evidence in Acts that signs and wonders happened in the Christian meetings. They happened out among the pagan unbelievers. When the group under persecution in Jerusalem got together and prayed, the place was shaken, they were all filled with the Spirit, and spoke the Word with boldness - to whom? The unbelievers of course! They asked that signs and wonders be done in the name of Jesus. Where? Among the unsaved! So, when there is a "full-gospel" crusade in your town, who are the ones who attend it? 90% Christian believers and those they invite to it. I attended a massed crusade a couple of years ago in Auckland with 2000 people in the church building. Most were Christians. There were around 40 people who came for to receive Christ. A large crowd came forward for their "touch from God". I didn't see any signs and wonders, although some said it was a great meeting with wonderful results. It is interesting that the preacher did have thousands come to Christ in Africa when he had over a million unbelievers gather in a large field to hear the gospel. In Auckland, he basically preached to the choir!

John G Lake, a pioneer Pentecostal, had remarkable results when he went to South Africa and preached the gospel to mainly unbelievers. Smith Wigglesworth was the same, his passion was for souls for Christ, and the remarkable healings resulted in thousands turning to Christ. Maria Woodworth-Etter did not want to pray for healing at first because she felt it was a distraction from her gospel preaching. The Lord assured her that if she prayed for healing, even more souls would come to Christ, which they did.

These are so far different from the "mega-churches" full of believers, seeking for and pretending that signs and wonders are occurring in those churches. When in the book of Acts, and in any subsequent revival, the signs and wonders happened among unbelievers under the preaching of repentance. In the Welsh Revival, they did have to lay off great numbers of the police force in some areas, because of the significant reduction of crime, and many bar owners went out of business, because fewer people patronised them.

So, if people are seeking signs and wonders in their churches, they are barking up the wrong tree. They would be better off praying that the power of God would go with them as they got out where the unbelievers are and shared the gospel with them. Instead of praying, "Lord bring signs and wonders into our church", they should be praying, "Give us boldness to share Your gospel to the lost and let signs and wonders be done [among the lost] in the Name of Jesus."

 

[Heart2Soul]

So, if people are seeking signs and wonders in their churches, they are barking up the wrong tree.

When people aren't seeking signs and wonders and they happen anyway following the preaching of the Word what would you say this is?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

When people aren't seeking signs and wonders and they happen anyway following the preaching of the Word what would you say this is?

My point is, and has been in my last few posts, is that genuine signs and wonders among unbelievers changes the community to greater godliness and less crime. If it is not happening in a significant and observable way, then the signs and wonders are not happening as they should be, and the preaching of the gospel is just in word without the accompanying power of God. The trouble is that Christian people are seeking signs and wonders in their services and their preaching without spending the time in prayer, going through the hard yards to bring God's power to save the lost. When there were miraculous healings in the ministries of Peter and Paul they were out where the unbelievers were, and just one healing turned who regions to Christ. Are we seeing that in our cities? No.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

When people aren't seeking signs and wonders and they happen anyway following the preaching of the Word what would you say this is?

I am sure you know of ministries that feature an apostle. You did mention Rick Joyner. I am not putting him down, because I believe he is sincerely serving the Lord in his ministry. But when he has had "miracle" conferences, have there been reports of hundreds of prostitutes, criminals, alcoholics, and other unbelievers streaming into his meetings from up to 20 miles away, convicted of sin and desperately wanting to turn to Christ? Has anything like that happened in the massed meetings of any other "apostle" you know of? If not, then there could be a reasonable doubt that God's presence and power is anywhere near that meeting, even though the preaching is uplifting, and the atmosphere is exciting. But God's real presence and power is there to save souls, not to provide a "hallelujah hootenanny" for self indulgent Christians.

 

[Heart2Soul]

My point is, and has been in my last few posts, is that genuine signs and wonders among unbelievers changes the community to greater godliness and less crime. If it is not happening in a significant and observable way, then the signs and wonders are not happening as they should be, and the preaching of the gospel is just in word without the accompanying power of God. The trouble is that Christian people are seeking signs and wonders in their services and their preaching without spending the time in prayer, going through the hard yards to bring God's power to save the lost. When there were miraculous healings in the ministries of Peter and Paul they were out where the unbelievers were, and just one healing turned who regions to Christ. Are we seeing that in our cities? No.

God's Word assures as that in the last days we will.....
Acts 2:17-21 King James Version (KJV)
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Are we in the last days? You will hardly find a church to say we aren't or a believer to say we are not......

 

[Heart2Soul]

I am sure you know of ministries that feature an apostle. You did mention Rick Joyner. I am not putting him down, because I believe he is sincerely serving the Lord in his ministry. But when he has had "miracle" conferences, have there been reports of hundreds of prostitutes, criminals, alcoholics, and other unbelievers streaming into his meetings from up to 20 miles away, convicted of sin and desperately wanting to turn to Christ? Has anything like that happened in the massed meetings of any other "apostle" you know of? If not, then there could be a reasonable doubt that God's presence and power is anywhere near that meeting, even though the preaching is uplifting, and the atmosphere is exciting. But God's real presence and power is there to save souls, not to provide a "hallelujah hootenanny" for self indulgent Christians.

I will not judge anyone personally.....so count me out on this conversation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I will not judge anyone personally.....so count me out on this conversation.

"By their fruits, you shall know them" is what the Scripture says. The fruit of an apostle ministry is that there is a wholesale turning to Christ in whole communities when the gospel is preached by them, because the power of the Holy Spirit will be with them with the type of signs and wonders that will amaze them, fill them with wonder, and convict them of their sinfulness before God. It will be the power of God through their ministries that will bring people to repentance and saving faith. If we don't see that in a guy's ministry, he may be a good preacher, encouraging the saints, but certainly not a New Testament apostle.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Also, any signs and wonders that people claim that do not amaze unbelievers, fill them with wonder, convict them of sin and their desperate need for having Jesus as Saviour and cause them to turn to Christ, are not true signs and wonders. There may be a bit of a fizz in the bottle in some churches with a few getting healed, but nothing much happening in the community around them. The godless community just carries on as it always has been with no amazement, no wondering, no conviction of sin, and no care about the gospel of Jesus.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

2 Corinthians 12:12
The signs of a true apostle were performed among you in all patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.

Many people are claiming to be an apostle today, where are their signs, wonders and mighty works that are documented by independent sources??

Lots of people down through the ages have signs, wonders and mighty works. Independent documentation doesn't mean beans though as far as someone believing or not believing the miracles happen. Seen all kinds of people say if there are doctors reports then I'd believe it. Then when they get three doctors reports they still don't. That being said. Signs, wonders and might works can follow anyone filled with the Holy Spirit......anyone called to the ministry too. Look at Phillip the evangelist.

I am saying this because I don't believe signs, wonders and mighty work make an apostle. Nor do I believe one with the ability or power to start a bunch of churches makes an apostle. Nor do I think one with a superior knowledge of God's Word makes for an Apostle. Or all three of these things put together. I think an apostle is one who has a very particular miraculous empowerment that is pretty rare and no one knows about it except the few that have that empowerment.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Some people have big egos and like to call themselves things. More often I see people call themselves prophets. I know a pastor, though, who seems to think everybody is an apostle because everyone is called to do something. In the final analysis, we all need to repent of our sin, and then we are all equal.

I read somewhere that another meaning of Apostle is one sent out like a Missionary. The Pastor must have the great commission in mind that every believer is expected to share their faith.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

We are never going to get back to the point of signs and wonders with all the unbelievers and doubters in the world. Secondly, for the most part churches don't even attempt to train and raise up those who are called in the ministry....whether apostle or prophet....they have totally put this under the table, so to speak. So how will we ever get back to this? His Word says in the last days....
Acts 2:17 “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:”
If God says it will come to pass then it WILL come to pass.
Mark 16:17-18King James Version (KJV)
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

So when did we stray so far from this? How do we get back to it?
Faith and Obedience...this is how.

The long ending to Mark is not likely the correct ending since there are other endings including just stopping at verse 8, thus making theology on that text is poor exegesis. James places the responsibility for faith on the healers or elders, not on others. For example, the dead man who was thrown into a cave and was resurrected...

I am betting there were just as many people percentage wise who lacked faith as there is today. Your statement is just an excuse by those who teach poor theology.

Ephesians 4:13
New International Version
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Surely a person who is skilled in the knowledge of His Word can rightly discern who is genuine and who is fake. Apostles and prophets have nothing to brag about...it is a burdensome call. It is only those who think of themselves highly that puts a status quo of importance of themselves. The apostles of the NT suffered greatly and were imprisoned, stoned to death and persecuted often.
If you care to study this here is a link.
Why Satan hates the restoration of the Apostolic?

Galatians 6:17 Henceforth let no man trouble me; for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

So...equal in salvation? equal in calling? According to God's Word....many are called but FEW are chosen....that doesn't sound equal to me.

Matthew 22 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
The Parable of the Wedding Banquet
22 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast; but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, Behold, I have made ready my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves are killed, and everything is ready; come to the marriage feast.’ 5 But they made light of it and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite to the marriage feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the streets and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good; so the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; 12 and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

 

[Emli]

Also, any signs and wonders that people claim that do not amaze unbelievers, fill them with wonder, convict them of sin and their desperate need for having Jesus as Saviour and cause them to turn to Christ, are not true signs and wonders. There may be a bit of a fizz in the bottle in some churches with a few getting healed, but nothing much happening in the community around them. The godless community just carries on as it always has been with no amazement, no wondering, no conviction of sin, and no care about the gospel of Jesus.

Thank you, Oscarr, for your well-chosen words (given from God without a doubt) in this thread. I have been having an inner struggle about this for some time now. And I've been feeling that the signs and wonders are outward signs to unbelievers. Of course He can and will heal His children, and cast out evil spirits from us, and do great miracles for us. But if we already have saving faith and a relationship with Him, why would we need signs from Him? I don't. How faithless wouldn't it be to require them?

But I've seen them. I've seen Him do miracles through me when preaching the Gospel, which did amaze people. And it was never for me, but through me.

So... would it be okay for me to ask Him to keep doing miracles as I preach the Gospel? I want to do everything that Jesus did, and Paul. I want this godless country (Sweden) to see Jesus Christ!

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The ministry of Apostle and Prophet require a totally unified Church as existed in the First Century A.D. ...

In more modern times there has been an attempt to restore the role of Apostle and Prophet to the Church, but although some are calling themselves Apostle and Prophet, they can't fulfill the true role, because not all the different denominations will accept their ministry. If several denominations accept a man's ministry, he is more likely to fulfill the role of Bishop than Apostle.

As far as people calling themselves "Apostle" or "Prophet", I have doubts about self-advertising. It seems a type of "puffing up" to me. I don't have a problem with others who recognize the ministry to call someone a Prophet. That is not self advertising. But there are snags in that too, and it can go to the extreme of hero worship which is just as bad. The best way of dealing with that is to always see a ministry as a man who is involved in the prophetic ministry. That keeps things in their right perspective.

Hi Friend, the later part, I see no problem. But on the opening, not even the Corinthians themselves were united. As Paul goes on to teach them, a local body of Christ must work as one body for their church to become healthy. I do not know from Church History if that goal was ever reached there. I do not expect it to occur in the Church Universal until the Second Coming. Last I checked even Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches teach their Missionaries to speak in a language to reach out to their target group. God has given me on every rare times what is called a missionary tongue. I do not know of anyone who regularly speaks in a missionary tongue. Each time it occurred with me, there was a witness who was an unbeliever who could understand the language God had me Witness in. I heard everything in a language I knew, to the observer we were talking in the other guys' language. As a young Christian, I did not know that I should have documented this.

1 Corinthians 1:13
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thank you, Oscarr, for your well-chosen words (given from God without a doubt) in this thread. I have been having an inner struggle about this for some time now. And I've been feeling that the signs and wonders are outward signs to unbelievers. Of course He can and will heal His children, and cast out evil spirits from us, and do great miracles for us. But if we already have saving faith and a relationship with Him, why would we need signs from Him? I don't. How faithless wouldn't it be to require them?

But I've seen them. I've seen Him do miracles through me when preaching the Gospel, which did amaze people. And it was never for me, but through me.

So... would it be okay for me to ask Him to keep doing miracles as I preach the Gospel? I want to do everything that Jesus did, and Paul. I want this godless country (Sweden) to see Jesus Christ!

Certainly you can ask Him to do that through you. As long as you keep praying and asking, God will work through you to cause people to turn to Christ. We always ought to pray and not give up. That's what the disciples asked for in Acts, that they would preach the Word with boldness and that signs and wonders be done in the Name of Jesus. So your request is right in line with Scripture.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hi Friend, the later part, I see no problem. But on the opening, not even the Corinthians themselves were united. As Paul goes on to teach them, a local body of Christ must work as one body for their church to become healthy. I do not know from Church History if that goal was ever reached there. I do not expect it to occur in the Church Universal until the Second Coming. Last I checked even Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches teach their Missionaries to speak in a language to reach out to their target group. God has given me on every rare times what is called a missionary tongue. I do not know of anyone who regularly speaks in a missionary tongue. Each time it occurred with me, there was a witness who was an unbeliever who could understand the language God had me Witness in. I heard everything in a language I knew, to the observer we were talking in the other guys' language. As a young Christian, I did not know that I should have documented this.

1 Corinthians 1:13
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Paul wrote to the Corinthians because they were backsliding into a dysfunctional church. If Paul wrote to most Charismatic churches today, he would write exactly the same things.

If Charismatic teachers were teaching people to use the gift of tongues to go and preach the gospel, then they are giving error teaching. The New Testament does not support teaching about the gift of tongues that way. But, as has been demonstrated through Church history, the Holy Spirit has given a missionary the ability to share the gospel in the language of the listeners. These are not the normal use of the gift of tongues, but part of the "extraordinary" miracles that happened with Paul and people who came after him. Some early Pentecostals went over to China believing that if they spoke in tongues to the people, they would be understood. Of course, it didn't happen and these missionaries returned to America, broke, disillusioned, and with their tails between their legs.

 

[Emli]

Certainly you can ask Him to do that through you. As long as you keep praying and asking, God will work through you to cause people to turn to Christ. We always ought to pray and not give up. That's what the disciples asked for in Acts, that they would preach the Word with boldness and that signs and wonders be done in the Name of Jesus. So your request is right in line with Scripture.

Awesome! I'm gonna keep praying that!

Freely you have received, freely give.