signs of a true apostle

[Daniel Marsh]

Of course, as I have said before, the word "miracle" is very suggestive word and depends entirely upon a persons perspective.

What you consider a "miracle" I may consider a natural occurrence.

Oscar, I am not trying to dissuade of your beliefs in any way what so ever. But I really think that you understand just as I do that Religion is bound to have mistaken some non-miracles for miracles. Miracles must have been mistaken for non-miracles too.

People see what they want to see, and then the more they tell others what they saw, the more suspicious the story becomes.

Think about ALIANS. If you talk with people, everyone has their own story of seeing an Alien. But every single time, when it come time to show the proof, there never is any.

BIGFOOT. Every body believes that there are these human/animals living in the woods.
But where is the proof? Not one single one has ever been produced. No bones, no graves no skeletons. Does that mean they eat their dead, body, blood and bones????

Humans tend to tell stories to make themselves look more important than others. It is just what we do.

I never believed in Bigfoot.

We are having Technical Difficulties.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

read to here

 

[Biblicist]

I would like to contact him personally.

One of the troubles with trying to contact University and college professors, or academics in general, is that due to their circle of associations they tend to restrict, either through intent or be accident, who they relate to which is something that I keep in mind when I travel through these various halls of higher learning. Most of my interactions, except for a few, are with the various head librarians and as I am a neither an academic nor a student of these various institutions I strenuously try to make sure that I do not interfere with student resources as they are the ones who have paid to have the library materials at hand, though I am a member of one large Christian College library.

For that matter, even though I am preparing to undertake an accredited Masters, even this qualification really only gives someone a foot in the door, where most academics are more inclined to accept queries from those who hold an accredited Doctoral degree or who are at least doctoral candidates. This is not always a result of snobbery but as most of them live very busy lives and where their working days are with fellow academics and with students who have committed themselves to serious study then they understandably are more inclined to relate to those who are of a similar academic standing to themselves; this is why I tread very carefully in these hallowed halls.

As I currently have a casual administrative staff role at a major secular University, this allows me to access a wealth of information, where our library staff even source materials for me that they do not normally hold and of course a University staff card does have its benefits outside of the institution.

 

[Major1]

I never believed in Bigfoot.

We are having Technical Difficulties.

Me neither. I do not even believe there are aliens either.

 

[Major1]

read to here

What are you trying to say my friend?

 

[Major1]

I know you are not trying to dissuade me from my beliefs. I included the quote from Augustine just to give you a prod to promote further discussion. I agree with what you are saying about people attributing natural phenomena to the miraculous. This is seen in the number of folks who claim supernatural healing of headaches and bad backs, when those tend to resolve themselves naturally, and with the help of pain killers. But I wouldn't say that about Augustine, because in his earlier years he was fairly adamant that the day of miracles had ceased, and this was evident in his earlier writings. But the occurrence of miraculous events in the churches under his jurisdiction in his later ministry at Hippo, caused him to realise that the miracles that happened in the First Century were happening in his churches. I don't think he was mistaken about that. Unfortunately, the Church held to his earlier cessationist writings and ignored his later ones. It is interesting to note that cessationist teaching did not exist in the Church before around 1870. For sure, the teaching was that the supernatural gifts did decline and were not longer part of the Church's central ministry, but the reasons were fairly vague and supposed that they declined after the Apostolic Age; but they did not give substantive reasons for it. Cessationist teaching that the gifts ceased because of the "mature Church" or the adoption of the Biblical canon, came into being in the late 1870s.

My 1st thought Oscar is that a teaching on the Cessation of sign gifts was not needed until the Charismatic Pentecostal denomination came into existence. As it became more popular the other denominations had to come up with an explanation of what was happening and even if it should be happening.

I for one believe in things taking place which can not be explained. Some call them miracles and that all depends on what the person sees.

I for one have seen some really wonderful things in my life and the only way to explain them is a miracle from God.

I will recount one for you that to this day astounds me. In the battle for Hue City in 1968, I was leading several men in an assault on a house. As my sergeant and I stood up to leave where we had been sitting, a mortar shell hit maybe 5 feet in front of us.
There was nothing left of Tom. We could not find his body but I did not receive a single scratch. There is n oher way to explain that than God's intervention.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

My 1st thought Oscar is that a teaching on the Cessation of sign gifts was not needed until the Charismatic Pentecostal denomination came into existence. As it became more popular the other denominations had to come up with an explanation of what was happening and even if it should be happening.

I for one believe in things taking place which can not be explained. Some call them miracles and that all depends on what the person sees.

I for one have seen some really wonderful things in my life and the only way to explain them is a miracle from God.

I will recount one for you that to this day astounds me. In the battle for Hue City in 1968, I was leading several men in an assault on a house. As my sergeant and I stood up to leave where we had been sitting, a mortar shell hit maybe 5 feet in front of us.
There was nothing left of Tom. We could not find his body but I did not receive a single scratch. There is n oher way to explain that than God's intervention.

I replied to a post in the General Theology forum in answer in a thread on Miracles, where I gave my view about where miracles are and are not necessary, and whose department miracles belong. If you can find it, you might find it interesting. The thread is "Why Pray for a Miracle?"

 

[Biblicist]

I notice the following online related to history of the
1600’s.

Owen, John

‘The Original, Duration, Use and End of Extraordinary Spiritual Gifts’ in A Discourse of Spiritual Gifts in Works, vol. 4 The works of John Owen

pp. 248-9 & 282 of Commentary on Heb. 2:4
An exposition of the Epistle to the Hebrews
An exposition of the Epistle to the Hebrews

Cessationism

One of the interesting outcomes of my ongoing research into the views of the scholars and commentators over earlier years is well reflected in Owen's comments on pages 474-75 which is a view that seems to be common (or with variations) by other scholars of earlier years:

There was no certain limited time for the cessation of these gifts. Those peculiar unto the apostles were commensurate unto their lives. None after their decease had either apostolical office, power, or gifts. The like may be said of the evangelists. Nor have we any undoubted testimony that any of those gifts which were truly miraculous, and every way above the faculties of men, -were communicated unto any after the expiration of the generation of them who conversed with Christ in the flesh, or those who received the Holy Ghost by their ministry. It is not unlikely but that God might on some occasions, for a longer season, put forth his power in some miraculous operations; and so he yet may do, and perhaps doth sometimes.​

As I do not know enough about John Owen's overall views at this stage I will limit my observations to the above passage.

 

[Biblicist]

I have never meet a cessationist that supports liberalism or homosexuality.
Who are they? Just curious.

Okay, one of the complexities for many, at least since the onset of the Charismatic Renewal of the 1960's and 70's, with regard to being compelled to openly agree with their denominations or congregations cessationist views, is that many are aware that the following groups are also cessationist;

• Atheists (the world in general)
  
• Liberal church goers
• Those who say 'God is dead' &
  
• Full Gospel backsliders

As all church attending liberals are cessationist (I couldn't imagine any that are Continuist), then this 'guilt-by-association' has made many feel very uncomfortable over the years, and when Continuists raise this point during discussions with cessationists, or at least those who are quasi-cessationists, where this particular world view has been imposed upon them by maybe their congregation, this has been a compelling reason for many quasi-cessationists to lay low so to speak.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

One of the troubles with trying to contact University and college professors, or academics in general, is that due to their circle of associations they tend to restrict, either through intent or be accident, who they relate to which is something that I keep in mind when I travel through these various halls of higher learning. Most of my interactions, except for a few, are with the various head librarians and as I am a neither an academic nor a student of these various institutions I strenuously try to make sure that I do not interfere with student resources as they are the ones who have paid to have the library materials at hand, though I am a member of one large Christian College library.

For that matter, even though I am preparing to undertake an accredited Masters, even this qualification really only gives someone a foot in the door, where most academics are more inclined to accept queries from those who hold an accredited Doctoral degree or who are at least doctoral candidates. This is not always a result of snobbery but as most of them live very busy lives and where their working days are with fellow academics and with students who have committed themselves to serious study then they understandably are more inclined to relate to those who are of a similar academic standing to themselves; this is why I tread very carefully in these hallowed halls.

As I currently have a casual administrative staff role at a major secular University, this allows me to access a wealth of information, where our library staff even source materials for me that they do not normally hold and of course a University staff card does have its benefits outside of the institution.

I probably get away with things because I was a Master Teacher who taught K thru College.
If I were to contact him it would be by snail mail, so he could put it on a back burner and get to it whenever. I will often email professors and those who are too busy will give my email to an assistant(a role I had while in University). In short, my request would not be urgent in anyway.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

What are you trying to say my friend?

It is simply a note to self, due to poor memory.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Let me tell you...Paul was speaking of himself. Those were the signs of his commission.

Paul taught us something about the Body of Christ, too. We are not all cookie-cutter Christians. Study the parts (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher) which is the hand of God.
Then study the spiritual gifts.
Then reason that we do not all have the same ministry/call/body-part, and we do not all have the same gift or gifts, one may have one gift, another has six, and another has four, and another has four also but four different spiritual gift(s). It just falls on the good pleasure of God's Will and where He baptizes you into the Body of Christ. Ya falla?

Study Paul's ministry and discern his gift-ministry/call/body-part (he might have more than one), and then see if you can discern his spiritual gifts. An apostle today may not have raised the dead (Pete also) but they are commissioned to do something for his/her Lord and the spiritual gifts assist in accomplishing that call/function of God. Plus there are the "pounds."
And the talents.
And here too, not every believer has the same talent but they will all have only one pound.
Right?
Maybe there is more to what the Holy Spirit said in Acts 13:2. Maybe there was someone who was there in the Antioch church that was at Corinth when he wrote and knew the person would be there with the epistle's/letter's arrival? Maybe part of the prophecy was exactly as he described in his Corinthian letter for benefit of someone who would read the letter or know its contents - Paul did write to the CHURCH at Corinth, so this was a letter that was read/shared with/to the brethren.

Then we date the letter. Etc. This should be fun.

"signs of an Apostle" covers more than just himself.

As I recall Peter did miracles too.

2 Corinthians 12:11-13 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Paul’s Love for the Believers in Corinth
11 I have been talking like a fool, but you made me do it. You people are the ones who should say good things about me. I am worth nothing, but those “super apostles” are not worth any more than I am! 12 When I was with you, I patiently did the things that prove I am an apostle—signs, wonders, and miracles. 13 So you received everything that the other churches have received. Only one thing was different: I was not a burden to you. Forgive me for this!

2 Corinthians 12:10-13 Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV)
10 That is why I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties, for the sake of Christ. For whenever I am weak, then am I strong.
11 I have become a fool. You forced me. After all, I ought to be commended by you, because I was not inferior to the “super-apostles” in any way, even if I am nothing. 12 The signs of an apostle—signs and wonders and miracles—were performed among you with all perseverance. 13 For how were you treated worse than the other churches, except that I myself was not a burden to you? Forgive me for this wrong.

2 Corinthians 12:10-13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

11 I have become foolish; you yourselves compelled me. Actually I should have been commended by you, for in no respect was I inferior to the most eminent apostles, even though I am a nobody. 12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and [f]miracles. 13 For in what respect were you treated as inferior to the rest of the churches, except that I myself did not become a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!

I have been a fool! You forced me to it, for I ought to have been commended by you. For I am not at all inferior to these superlative apostles, even though I am nothing. The signs of a true apostle were performed among you in all patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works. For in what were you less favored than the rest of the churches, except that I myself did not burden you? Forgive me this wrong! (2 Corinthians 12:11-13 RSV)

In context Paul is contrasting "signs of a true apostle" with the false ones that were upsetting the apple cart. Yes, he was applying that standard to himself, but he was defining the standard of a true apostle as opposed to the false ones.

Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.] [And they promptly reported all these instructions to Peter and his companions. And after that, Jesus Himself sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.]

In context, who was preaching?

Acts 2:43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.

Acts 5:12 At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s portico

Acts 14:3 Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord, who was testifying to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands.

Acts 15:12 All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.

Romans 15:19 in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Hebrews 2:4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

Aside from my point:

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

Acts 7:36 This man led them out, performing wonders and signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea and in the wilderness for forty years.

Acts 8:6 The crowds with one accord were giving attention to what was said by Philip, as they heard and saw the signs which he was performing.

Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

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