signs of a true apostle

[lamb7]

Paul never gave any similar teaching to any of the other churches. He gave teaching to Timothy about women, but that was much later on, and I suspect that there was more discrimination against women then than before. For the Corinthians, Paul was giving corrective teaching about things the Corinthians were doing wrong. However, in chapter 14, which was concerning the correct use of tongues, the verse about women seems out of place, and it Paul actually did write it, it might more have been the women's misuse of tongues and silly questions that might have been disrupting the order of the meetings. However, in the original manuscripts the note about women was a "gloss" in the margin and it was a later copyist who inserted into the main text. Perhaps it might have been written into the margin by a scribe who had questions about women because his personal belief was that women should not have a speaking role in the Church. And, good hermeneutics does not allow an important doctrine like the role of women in the Church to be based on a single verse that seems out of context with the rest of the chapter.

Interesting points! I do know the the Jewish religion was harsh on women so I did wonder if that was part of that culture at that time.

 

[lamb7]

How then does that account for healing, prophecy, miracles, and casting out of demons was commonplace in the Early Church right through to the Third Century. I can imagine a group of people being ministered to for healing and the first one got healed and halfway through the ministry for the next one, news of the Apostle John's death came through, and so the sick man was told, "Sorry you can't be healed now, the last Apostle has died." Doesn't that sound silly to you?

I know we can be healed and have miracles happen from direct prayer to God now and I have seen that in my lifetime so far. So healing is alive and well today. I know God doesn't always heal though kinda like Paul's thorn in the flesh. I always wondered why he could not heal himself .... and why God did not grant healing. I am assuming it was to hinder him from pride?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I know we can be healed and have miracles happen from direct prayer to God now and I have seen that in my lifetime so far. So healing is alive and well today. I know God doesn't always heal thougj kinda like Paul's throb in the flesh. I always wondered why he could not heal himself .... and why God did not grant healing. I am assuming it was to hinder him from pride?

We are not told that Paul's thorn in the flesh was a medical condition. When you read his accounts of being stoned, beaten, thrown in prison, etc., then I am not surprised that if he was affected in his physical body because of those things. He advised Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake, and that was for medical reasons. And he left the other guy sick somewhere, why, to allow him rest from his work so he could be restored to health. There are medical conditions that can be healed through rest, sleep, and medicine. The signs and wonders aspect of healing is when a person afflicted with an incurable disease of disability is miraculously healed, and all the examples of that type of healing caused the whole town to turn to Jesus. I can understand those who are skeptical about modern claims for healing, because those don't seem to turn vast sections of the community around that church to Christ. A person healed of a sore back, a headache, or common cold, or getting a few gold teeth are not the signs and wonders that would turn a whole region to Christ., but a well known personality in town whom everyone knows is dying of cancer is healed, and it becomes news, causing wonder, amazement, and conviction of sin through the power and reality of God.

 

[lamb7]

We are not told that Paul's thorn in the flesh was a medical condition. When you read his accounts of being stoned, beaten, thrown in prison, etc., then I am not surprised that if he was affected in his physical body because of those things. He advised Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake, and that was for medical reasons. And he left the other guy sick somewhere, why, to allow him rest from his work so he could be restored to health. There are medical conditions that can be healed through rest, sleep, and medicine. The signs and wonders aspect of healing is when a person afflicted with an incurable disease of disability is miraculously healed, and all the examples of that type of healing caused the whole town to turn to Jesus. I can understand those who are skeptical about modern claims for healing, because those don't seem to turn vast sections of the community around that church to Christ. A person healed of a sore back, a headache, or common cold, or getting a few gold teeth are not the signs and wonders that would turn a whole region to Christ., but a well known personality in town whom everyone knows is dying of cancer is healed, and it becomes news, causing wonder, amazement, and conviction of sin through the power and reality of God.

Right that makes sense more extreme diseases which in turn really makes the miracle profound thus grabbing attention from those who witness it. I'm skeptical of some I suppose, but am not ruling out it cannot happen.

 

[Major1]

How then does that account for healing, prophecy, miracles, and casting out of demons was commonplace in the Early Church right through to the Third Century. I can imagine a group of people being ministered to for healing and the first one got healed and halfway through the ministry for the next one, news of the Apostle John's death came through, and so the sick man was told, "Sorry you can't be healed now, the last Apostle has died." Doesn't that sound silly to you?

First of all brother, exactly what is a miracle? People use that term rather loosely—frequently, not at all in a scriptural sense.

We really are not obligated to defend as divine a modern event simply because it may have certain elements that are difficult to explain. There are many illusions that modern magicians perform which the average person cannot explain; but they do have natural explanations. They are not miracles.

 

[Major1]

You might have missed the point that he knew that there were too many people coming for ministry that he could cope with, so he trained a team of divine healing technicians to assist him with the workload. He was the only healing evangelist who did this. To receive the DHT certification, a student had to spend time with a sick person and achieve healing for that person through prayer and the healing had to be documented by a medical professional as achieved through prayer and not normal medicine. He was very strict about that, and so having a team of fully trained and certificated DHTs showed that his and their ministries actually worked. I have taken the time to read his biography and his book of complete teaching. Yes, I do believe that some can stretch the truth, but having a copy of John Lake's DHT manual that he used as the text for his training, I don't see any exaggerations at all. It is quite practical and straight forward.

Concerning the testimony of the elderly woman and the gold teeth, if it caused the whole town in which she lived to turn to Christ, the crime rate significantly decreased through the vast numbers convicted of sin, then I would be more inclined to believe it.

No sir. I did not miss it! I am saying it did not happen because it was impossible to take place as described.

What then is left for an answer......It was fabricated, exaggerated.

I would encourage you to read the information found at http://www.scielo.org.za/pdf/she/v42n1/06.pdf

 

[Blade]

Apostles. As with Prophets.. from what I read and understand there are GIFTS that flow go with these offices. What does it mean? One sent? Jesus said as my Father has sent me even so I send you. Now.. if I look haha look.. if I read about the 12.. each one of them seen Jesus, even Paul. Would seem to me that one would have to have a personal encounter. They were the ones that started it all. Like building a home.. they started it.. someone else was put in and on and on. And then the Apostles would keep track see how they are doing and visit and what not.

So what has changed? Not God. He started something and its not finished. There are REAL Apostles today.. and real Prophets today. You just won't find them posting all over the net or youtube..sorry. God never once asked us what we think about whom He calls nor will He. Theres a walk that many will not walk. A price many won't pay. God again has not changed. What was in Peter and John is in you and me. Theres ONE body...ONE God. Its not MY way or YOURS its His. But today we are busybodies. Each one has the REAL TRUTH. Am I right and your wrong? We all see read study and DUH we KNOW the real way. Yet if this was true... all of what we speak now would be working in our life's. God has not changed.

For me.. what I found is.. Prayer..always in everything about everything. Reading His word..always day and night. Every moment every thought is Him. Love mercy grace forgiveness. Walking in 1st cor 13, Phil and always showing the fruits of the Spirit. For me my job on this planet is not to control anyone. I am not their judge.. I can judge them.. but my heart must be true and pure. To want to help show them Him..lead them to HIM. Willing to become durty..become the last so they can be 1st. And then.. IF and How I judge them my Father will judge me.To always make sure HE my Father gets every glory all the praise and thanks.

So the Apostle... its never about you. Its ALWAYS about others. How many times do you read what our brother Paul says...when he is talking about others? The LOVE he has.. he really truly thought of them always and loved them. What do YOU see? Do you see baptist to word of Faith? Or your brother and sister? So you 1st see the fault or how much they love Jesus? For you would KNOW that your prayer for them the Father hears and its HIS Child and He is doing the work not us. WE so many times get in HIS way.

This path i write.... I know its mine. But.. I have to wonder if we all put HIM 1st in EVERYTHING. If we are willing to change..Father change me 1st. Take all that is not of you out.. what ever the cost.. to make me like you. So His eyes go to and fro..its not about them.. its about YOU. You can see where others have missed it.. so.. what will YOU do about it? didnt come here to debate so forgive me.

I do see SO many Apostles and Prophets that walk in a office they were never called to. Who are they? I would never talk about them. Take them before my Father.. in love to help to speak words of life.

He is in you...a GOD is in you. If He can not lie.. His will is HIS word. As long as we question things.. that is ALL we will see. One HAS to ... give ALL to Him..blind.. walk where you cant see cant feel cant see cant hear. To totaly rely on Him.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No sir. I did not miss it! I am saying it did not happen because it was impossible to take place as described.

What then is left for an answer......It was fabricated, exaggerated.

I would encourage you to read the information found at http://www.scielo.org.za/pdf/she/v42n1/06.pdf

The reviewer was part of the religious establishment. He is just an example of history repeating itself where the critics and opposers of all revivals have said the same things about the leaders of those revivals.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

First of all brother, exactly what is a miracle? People use that term rather loosely—frequently, not at all in a scriptural sense.

We really are not obligated to defend as divine a modern event simply because it may have certain elements that are difficult to explain. There are many illusions that modern magicians perform which the average person cannot explain; but they do have natural explanations. They are not miracles.

It is one thing to tear down the ministry of others, but it is quite another thing to do things that build up the body of Christ and the faith of believers. It seems that the critics of the modern revivals and the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements do more to tear down ministries than to do any actual building up of the body of Christ themselves. So what if some of the reports of John Lake's ministry are exaggerated? What is recorded of anything that the guy who criticised and tried to tear down his ministry having done anything significant to relieve the suffering of people in his country, other than write theological documents for other academics. Let's hear what Marius Nel has actually done in his ministry to win souls for Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Right that makes sense more extreme diseases which in turn really makes the miracle profound thus grabbing attention from those who witness it. I'm skeptical of some I suppose, but am not ruling out it cannot happen.

If you saw a real sign and a wonder, or heard of one, you would know without a doubt that it would be of God, because you would also be hearing about multitudes of people turning to Christ because of it. If you hear of a sign or a wonder that is promoting a watered down gospel or avoiding of holy living, or exalting the person instead of Christ, then you will know that it is false.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

First of all brother, exactly what is a miracle? People use that term rather loosely—frequently, not at all in a scriptural sense.

We really are not obligated to defend as divine a modern event simply because it may have certain elements that are difficult to explain. There are many illusions that modern magicians perform which the average person cannot explain; but they do have natural explanations. They are not miracles.

Simon the sorcerer did similar stuff among the Samaritans, but when he saw the signs and wonders that Philip did, he turned to the Lord and was baptised. But it was when Peter and John arrived and laid hands on people and they received the baptism with the Holy Spirit that he saw something he never had. He offered money for it so he could do the same and make money out of it.

The interesting thing about the magicians of Pharaoh was that they could replicate some of the miracles that Moses was able to perform, but one thing they couldn't do was to get rid of what they conjured up. Moses was able to get rid of the plagues when Pharoah pleaded with him. The magicians were not able to.

Jesus was accused of being a magician and doing His miracles through the power of Satan, so modern preachers who have miracles happen in their ministries can expect to have the same criticism directed at them. If they criticised and accused the master, then the servants cannot expect anything better.

I concur that you cannot prove that many of these modern miracles actually happened, but can you conclusively prove that they actually didn't? I don't think you can. Therefore, a person (the same as in American Law), is innocent of falsehood until proved guilty.

It is quite true that in modern healing crusades, more people leave not healed than those who are healed. That is a fact. But where a person is healed of an incurable disease or disability and this is supported by the doctor's medical report, how can you prove without a reasonable doubt that the healing was false?

I put it to you that you can't!

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Luke's account in the book of Acts is his diary about what was told to him and his involvement with the ministry of Paul. It is not a comprehensive account of everything that occurred in the Early Church. We don't know what the other Apostles did and how they went about preaching the Gospel. Luke never went into details about Timothy's ministry so we cannot say that Timothy never preached the gospel with signs and wonders. Also, the miraculous was so common in the ministries of the Early Church leaders, that only the most memorable are recorded. So if Timothy had signs and wonders attached to his ministry like all the others, then that was so commonplace that it wasn't worth taking up space in Luke's diary.

In actual fact, the miraculous was the normal component of the Early Church's ministry for the next 300 years after Peter's, Paul's and Timothy's ministries.

St. Timothy - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

St. Timothy - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

Interesting article, but inconclusive to the point I am making in this thread.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Simon the

It is quite true that in modern healing crusades, more people leave not healed than those who are healed. That is a fact. But where a person is healed of an incurable disease or disability and this is supported by the doctor's medical report, how can you prove without a reasonable doubt that the healing was false?

I put it to you that you can't!

Two tests that come to mind are: Look at the doctrine and lifestyle fruit And follow up with the healed a month later to see if they are still healed. I have seen people claim one can lose their healing. When Jesus healed people He instructed them to see the Priests to verify their healing -- the man born blind comes to mind.

Why today do they not cause a limb to regrow or the born blind to see?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Interesting article, but inconclusive to the point I am making in this thread.

I realize you are speculating about Luke's dairy. Are you aware of any copies of his notes outside of Acts today? Just curious.

There is a Dictionary of Miracles by
Ebenezer Cobham Brewer

 

[Daniel Marsh]

It is one thing to tear down the ministry of others, but it is quite another thing to do things that build up the body of Christ and the faith of believers. It seems that the critics of the modern revivals and the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements do more to tear down ministries than to do any actual building up of the body of Christ themselves. So what if some of the reports of John Lake's ministry are exaggerated? What is recorded of anything that the guy who criticised and tried to tear down his ministry having done anything significant to relieve the suffering of people in his country, other than write theological documents for other academics. Let's hear what Marius Nel has actually done in his ministry to win souls for Christ.

Exaggerated reports is lying and discredits people in the minds of many people.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

No sir. I did not miss it! I am saying it did not happen because it was impossible to take place as described.

What then is left for an answer......It was fabricated, exaggerated.

I would encourage you to read the information found at http://www.scielo.org.za/pdf/she/v42n1/06.pdf

What exactly was impossible as the story was told? thanks, daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

We are not told that Paul's thorn in the flesh was a medical condition. When you read his accounts of being stoned, beaten, thrown in prison, etc., then I am not surprised that if he was affected in his physical body because of those things. He advised Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake, and that was for medical reasons. And he left the other guy sick somewhere, why, to allow him rest from his work so he could be restored to health. There are medical conditions that can be healed through rest, sleep, and medicine. The signs and wonders aspect of healing is when a person afflicted with an incurable disease of disability is miraculously healed, and all the examples of that type of healing caused the whole town to turn to Jesus. I can understand those who are skeptical about modern claims for healing, because those don't seem to turn vast sections of the community around that church to Christ. A person healed of a sore back, a headache, or common cold, or getting a few gold teeth are not the signs and wonders that would turn a whole region to Christ., but a well known personality in town whom everyone knows is dying of cancer is healed, and it becomes news, causing wonder, amazement, and conviction of sin through the power and reality of God.

Galatians 4:15
What has become of the satisfaction you felt? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Correct.

In addition, if we would read verse 14 of Mark 16, it is clear that Jesus was speaking to the ELEVEN APOSTLES!

They, the Apostles had the sign gifts.
They, the Apostles healed the sick.
They, the Apostles raised the dead.
They, the Apostles drank poisoned water and lived.
They, the Apostles were bitten by snakes and survived.
They, the Apostles spoke in the languages wherever they went.

I keep forgetting whom Jesus is described as speaking to.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

That is correct.............
"a person who carries a message or is employed to carry messages.
synonyms: courier · runner · envoy · emissary · agent · go-between ·

The Great Commission was given to the ELEVEN Apostles by Jesus.
THEY had the "Sign Gifts" and when the last one died, so did the sign gifts.

WHY?

Because the Bible was completed!

This is the case that the foundation was laid.
When did the Apostolic Dispensation End?