The Sabbath Day: Saturday or Sunday?

[BobRyan]

delete

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

The ten commandments have been annulled for Christians.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
.

That does not mean what you think it means according to Paul in Romans 3:19-20 and 1 Cor 7:19 and Romans 3:31.

Hence -- it is "still a sin" to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 (even for Christians)... and most of us know it.

Nice try though.

Hello Bob.
There is no getting around the clear instruction of Paul to the Galatians.
Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Agreed. And no getting around the "context" and "meaning" for that phrase "under the law" - that Paul GIVES IT - in Romans 3:19-20

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable ("Guilty" KJV) to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
...
23 "FOR ALL have sinned"
...
31 "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 the SAINTS "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

1 John 5:2-3 "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"


It is not valid to contradict what Paul said in Romans 3 by attempting to wrench the text in Galatians 5 as if we could just assign any private meaning you wish to the term Paul himself defines for it.

Hence -- it is "still a sin" to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 (even for Christians)... and most of us know it.

 

[BobRyan]

How do you handle the ten commandments in Ex 34? Do you follow all of those?

Ex 34:28 .....And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 34 Now the Lord said to Moses, “Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered. 2 So be ready by morning, and come up in the morning to Mount Sinai, and present yourself there to Me on the top of the mountain.

What exactly is your question?

Are you suggesting that what God wrote - is not what God spoke in Exodus 20???

=====================================

In any case - wouldn't you agree that it is pretty handy that all Christian theologians from the major groups agree on what the Ten Commandments are - and that they are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the Jeremiah 31:31-33 New Covenant??

So then that would include groups like this..

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

And of course 7th day groups

Seventh-day Baptists
Seventh-day Adventists
(and 100's of others)
============================

So then it is "still a sin " to take God's name in vain Ex 20:7 in that same law from the OT - written on the heart under the Jer 31 'New Covenant' ... and even in the NT "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

You were talking about following the 10 commandments. So, do you follow the ten commandments? There they are listed in Exodus 34:

Ex 34:28 ...........And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

They are listed in Exodus 20 and Ex 34: says He wrote the same ones as written before.

Exodus 34 Now the Lord said to Moses, “Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered. 2 So be ready by morning, and come up in the morning to Mount Sinai, and present yourself there to Me on the top of the mountain.

As you noted "This is simply a question about consistency, interpretation, and application."

By contrast to the words written by God Himself in vs 1 --- we have this in Exodus 34

27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

And there you have the TWO sets... tine one Written by God - on stone -- which is what we see in Exodus 20 also SPOKEN by God audibly to the people....

And by contrast you have "what is written by Moses" in Exodus 34:27 and spoken only to Moses ...

Two different sets of commands.

In the second set which we find in Ex 34 spoken only to Moses -- there is nothing about not taking God's name in vain.

Is this what you are trying to get at??

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Deleted by LLoJ

 

[food4thought]

Without a doubt, Saturday is the Sabbath according to the Law of Moses (Gen 2:3; Exo 20:8-11; etc.).
That said, which day I choose to worship has nothing to do with my salvation.

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
(Col 2:16-17)

We are not under the law, but under grace (Rom 6:14b). To not observe the Sabbath is not a sin, otherwise Paul would not have said what he said in Colossians (not to mention Galatians). I can't understand how this is even a dispute among people who believe Paul's epistles are inspired Scripture.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Bob.

The quotation from Galatians has nothing to do with the letter to the Romans.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Do you honestly think that Paul told the church in Galatia, that they were not under the law. Then fully expects the Galatians to then somehow get a copy of the letter to the Romans. So that they can misread Romans 3:19-20 and consider themselves, in fact to the contrary, are under the law. Think it through Bob, the conclusion is obvious.

You somehow as if by magic, are under the impression that the church in Galatia had a complete New Testament, when they received this letter from Paul. This letter to the Galatians was written years before the letter to the Romans. Your interpretation is impossible.

 

[BobRyan]

Without a doubt, Saturday is the Sabbath according to the Law of Moses (Gen 2:3; Exo 20:8-11; etc.).
That said, which day I choose to worship has nothing to do with my salvation.

Because you are above God?

Do you think the same holds true in the case of "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 is this also an example of the "Law of Moses" that does not apply to you?

How about "Love God with all your heart" Deu 6:5 is this also a part of the Law of Moses that you are above?

What is the rule that you would use for discarding this or that part of the Bible?


Matt 7 before the cross "do not judge"

Col 2 -- after the cross
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Col 2:16-17)

No change

And so ... it is "still sin" to take God's name in vain.

We are not under the law, but under grace (Rom 6:14b).

True of all the saved in both OT and NT.

And in that condition we are under the "New Covenant" with the moral law of God written on the heart not merely external on stone.

"SIN is transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 even in the NT

To not observe the Sabbath is not a sin,
[/quote

You "quoted you" just then... you knew that -right?

Col 2 is about not being bound to "commandments of men"

 

[klutedavid]

Without a doubt, Saturday is the Sabbath according to the Law of Moses (Gen 2:3; Exo 20:8-11; etc.).
That said, which day I choose to worship has nothing to do with my salvation.

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
(Col 2:16-17)

We are not under the law, but under grace (Rom 6:14b). To not observe the Sabbath is not a sin, otherwise Paul would not have said what he said in Colossians (not to mention Galatians). I can't understand how this is even a dispute among people who believe Paul's epistles are inspired Scripture.

Hello f4t.

The way a person reads and understands the scripture, comes down to the way they have been taught to read it. The Seventh Day Adventists are taught to ignore the context of a letter. Hence, the SDA can eventually place themselves under the law, in complete disregard of the direct teaching of the scripture.

 

[food4thought]

Hello f4t.

The way a person reads and understands the scripture, comes down to the way they have been taught to read it. The Seventh Day Adventists are taught to ignore the context of a letter. Hence, the SDA can eventually place themselves under the law, in complete disregard of the direct teaching of the scripture.

Thank you for the insight, klutedavid, you are correct. I know how SDA's work, I live near Berrien Springs, MI, which is a stronghold of the SDA.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

The quotation from Galatians has nothing to do with the letter to the Romans.

No true in real life - in real life they are both written by Paul - and Paul defines his own terms. We call that "exegesis".

So then we are not allowed to make up our own definitions for Paul's terms... he can do that... we can't.

================================

Which gets us right back to this

no getting around the "context" and "meaning" for that phrase "under the law" - that Paul GIVES IT - in Romans 3:19-20

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable ("Guilty" KJV) to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
...
23 "FOR ALL have sinned"
...
31 "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 the SAINTS "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

1 John 5:2-3 "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"


It is not valid to contradict what Paul said in Romans 3 by attempting to wrench the text in Galatians 5 as if we could just assign any private meaning we wish to the term Paul himself defines for it.

Hence -- it is "still a sin" to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 (even for Christians)... and most of us know it.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello f4t.

The way a person reads and understands the scripture, comes down to the way they have been taught to read it. The Seventh Day Adventists are taught to ignore the context of a letter. .

utter nonsense and we both know it.

In fact you have repeatedly argued for ignoring the context for Paul's phrase "under the law" and the meaning he himself gives to that term in scripture - for example in Rom 3:19-20 -- and we both know it.

in fact we both know that your stated rejection of God's Ten Commandments is flatly refuted not only by the Bible but also by these groups --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.


Which means your attempt slander Adventists "as if opposition" against the failed logic you presented here would end in such a case -- is also utter nonsense.

 

[BobRyan]

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Do you honestly think that Paul told the church in Galatia, that they were not under the law. Then fully expects the Galatians to then somehow get a copy of the letter to the Romans.

The letter to the Romans is scripture
The letter to the Galatians is scripture.

Your argument is with exegesis itself!!

Is there no limit???

 

[BobRyan]

You somehow as if by magic, are under the impression that the church in Galatia had a complete New Testament, when they received this letter from Paul. This letter to the Galatians was written years before the letter to the Romans. Your interpretation is impossible.

You could use some study on the topic of exegesis before posting things like that.

Also - an understanding of how the Bible was written would help. For example you seem to be under the false idea that Paul never thinks or says anything that is not written in one of his letters. By contrast in real life his letters reveal what his teaching already is. Instead of having to "re-print" a letter for each church that contains everything already said to the previous church - the "accepted" concept is that the letters inform us of Paul's teaching they do not "limit" his teaching such that anything written to the Romans cannot also have been taught to the Galatians unless he "rewrites it for them".


And before you go falsely accusing others in defense of your views - remember that these groups as listed will also admit to this glaringly obvious Bible detail.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No true in real life - in real life they are both written by Paul - and Paul defines his own terms. We call that "exegesis".

So then we are not allowed to make up our own definitions for Paul's terms... he can do that... we can't.

I find interesting that the same people Peter is talking about in 2 Peter 3, are the same ones Jesus is talking to in John 5:

John 5:39
"Ye are searching the Writings that ye are seeming in them life age-during to be having, and those are the ones-testifying about Me".

2Peter 3:16
As also/and in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things; in which are difficult to understand any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rest of Writings,
toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>. [# 684 used reve 17:8, 11]

If you look at Reve 17, the 8th beast symbolizes both the 8th day circumcision and the tribe of Levi, which is 8th in order in Reve 7, the OC Mosaic Law and Priesthood being abolished. Will be glad to discuss that on another thread.......

Reve 17:
8 The beast which you perceived was, and not is, and is being about to be ascending out of the abyss, and into destruction/apwleian <684> it is going away.
11 And the beast which was, and not is, and he an-eighth is, and out of the seven is, and into destruction/apwleian <684> is going away.

Reve 7:
8. Levi

 

[food4thought]

Because you are above God?

No, I am not above God.

Do you think the same holds true in the case of "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 is this also an example of the "Law of Moses" that does not apply to you?

If I take the LORD's name in vain, do I lose my salvation?

How about "Love God with all your heart" Deu 6:5 is this also a part of the Law of Moses that you are above?

If I fail to love God with all my heart, all my soul, all my mind, and all my strength for a day, do I lose my salvation?

Do you, without fail, even for a moment, love God with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul and all your strength?

What is the rule that you would use for discarding this or that part of the Bible?

I do not discard any part of the Bible... but I do take everything in it's context. I believe I am under the New Covenant of grace, not under the Old Covenant of the Law of Moses. I do not need to become a Jew to be saved!!! As a gentile I am not under the Law of Moses!!! Read Acts 15!!!

Matt 7 before the cross "do not judge"

Col 2 -- after the cross
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Col 2:16-17)

No change

Nice how you don't bother quoting Matthew 7:1. Let me do so in context:

"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
(Mat 7:1-5)

This passage is saying that we should not judge one another hypocritically, not that we should never make a judgment. We are called to make judgments regarding the actions of others, just not hypocritically. Let me illustrate from another passage in the same chapter:

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
(Mat 7:15-20)

Do I really need to explain?

And so ... it is "still sin" to take God's name in vain.

What does that have to do with the Sabbath?

True of all the saved in both OT and NT.

And in that condition we are under the "New Covenant" with the moral law of God written on the heart not merely external on stone.

"SIN is transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 even in the NT

That is true for those who are under the Law... the unsaved. The saved are under the law of grace, not the Law of Moses. You choose the old KJV for this quote, while more accurate translations say "sin is lawlessness", which is being in the state of not obeying God through the Holy Spirit. Read Romans 7-8!!!

Hope this helps;
Michael

 

[dreadnought]

When it says Yeshua rose on the 1st...

No, that doesn't tell us that Saturday is the last day of the week.

 

[dreadnought]

Your point is to apparently show interest in the "names" given to the days of the week.. names given in our calendars, and how that maps to the Bible names of the days of the week.

Yet when the subject of calendars and history and historians and science and the glaringly obvious fact that historians today DO know exactly what day of the week was week-day-1,2,3,4,5,6 etc during the time of Jewish captivity and while Rome was using the Julian calendar... you want to run off to visit with Gulliver.

There is no Christian scholarship today arguing against science and history as you have been doing as you seem to have "imagined" that it is "a miracle" that Christians worship on Sunday as week-day-1 and Jews on Saturday as "the 7th day of the week" - and even Islam agrees with this fact of the 7 day week where Saturday is the 7th day, and all of the historians affirm it as well.

But as you keep pointing out and argument of the form - "Gulliver would differ with them" and of course you have free will and can circle the wagons on that one if you wish.

I simply want to know where the Bible says that Saturday is the last day of the week, to support your claim that we all must recognize Saturday as the sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

Without a doubt, Saturday is the Sabbath according to the Law of Moses (Gen 2:3; Exo 20:8-11; etc.).
That said, which day I choose to worship has nothing to do with my salvation.

Because you are above God?

Do you think the same holds true in the case of "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 is this also an example of the "Law of Moses" that does not apply to you?

How about "Love God with all your heart" Deu 6:5 is this also a part of the Law of Moses that you are above?

What is the rule that you would use for discarding this or that part of the Bible?


Matt 7 before the cross "do not judge"

Col 2 -- after the cross
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Col 2:16-17)

No change

And so ... it is "still sin" to take God's name in vain.

We are not under the law, but under grace (Rom 6:14b).

True of all the saved in both OT and NT.

And in that condition we are under the "New Covenant" with the moral law of God written on the heart not merely external on stone.

"SIN is transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 even in the NT

To not observe the Sabbath is not a sin,
[/quote

You "quoted you" just then... you knew that -right?

Col 2 is about not being bound to "commandments of men"

No, I am not above God.
If I take the LORD's name in vain, do I lose my salvation?

Depends - are you committing yourself to that form of rebellion against the Commandments of God or are you saying it was a momentary flaw?

The point is - that is a "Law of Moses" that we find in the Ten Commandments.. though you are being a bit cagey about it - you seem to be hinting that maybe you might agree with not taking God's name in vain as being an actual "commandment of God" -- law of Moses Exodus 20:7 -- not to be ignored.

If I fail to love God with all my heart, all my soul, all my mind, and all my strength for a day, do I lose my salvation?

Here again you appear to be admitting that this part of the Law of Moses in Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 which a Christian should not choose to live in rebellion against.

Do you, without fail, even for a moment, love God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength?

I never claimed to be sinless.

The question is -- do you choose rebellion - determined disregard of the commandments of God such as "do not take God's name in vain". Ex 20:7

 

[food4thought]

I simply want to know where the Bible says that Saturday is the last day of the week, to support your claim that we all must recognize Saturday as the sabbath.

I don't think it can be debated that the 7th day of the week is the Sabbath... see Gen 2:3; Exo 20:8-11; etc.

 

[BobRyan]

No, that doesn't tell us that Saturday is the last day of the week.

Without a doubt, Saturday is the Sabbath according to the Law of Moses (Gen 2:3; Exo 20:8-11; etc.).

A lot of groups will admit to that --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

And of course 7th day groups

Seventh-day Baptists
Seventh-day Adventists
(and 100's of others)

The list is almost endless

I don't think it can be debated that the 7th day of the week is the Sabbath... see Gen 2:3; Exo 20:8-11; etc.

True. It is kind of like asking "what Bible text says a day is 24 hours in Christ's day - or how many minutes in an hour back in Christ's day according to the Bible...what hour of hour day was the 6th hour of the day according to the Bible"... The question would need a bit of history to get to the right answer.