The Sabbath Day: Saturday or Sunday?

[food4thought]

To be continued tomorrow...

 

[klutedavid]

Paul's letters show what his teaching and meaning were during his ministry.
Your denial of the principles of exegesis is your choice... not mine.



My first answer is that tossing exegesis out the window is the first clue that your doctrine does not survive scripture. You literally express a need to NOT let Paul define his own terms.. that is a huge eyeopener for just about any Bible student on planet Earth.



Ceremonial law - being contrasted with moral law in Gal 5

All the lost are without the Gospel and thus are seeking to be "justified" not by faith - but by their deeds because there is nothing else if you have rejected the Savior.

Gal 5
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

6 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Not under the condemnation of the LAW - as Paul points out the meaning of that term in Romans 3:19-21

But this is NOT arguing for 'taking God's name in vain"

19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God

Matt 19 Jesus is asked "What must I do to be saved" and His response was "KEEP the Commandments" -- then the NEXT question "WHICH ONES".. and His answer was a list of the Commandments of Moses - part of the MORAL LAW also applicable in Romans 3.

Notice that in Romans 13 Paul gives the SAME LIST!

Unchanged -- precross and post-cross

Hello Bob.

I asked you to explain Galatians 5:18, to which you responded.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Not under the condemnation of the LAW - as Paul points out the meaning of that term in Romans 3:19-21

You are trying to avoid the simple reading of the text.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

By redefining the meaning of the phrase above, 'the law'.

You want the phrase, 'the law', to actually say 'ceremonial law'.

So you reread the quotation above (Galatians 5:18) using the exergesis of change that text, as shown below.

Galatians 5:18 (Bob's version)
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the ceremonial Law?

The only problem you have Bob, is that is not what Paul said. No matter how much you attempt to erase that phrase, it remains the same.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are NOT UNDER THE LAW.

As I said before and I will repeat, the Galatians did not have a copy of the letter to the Romans, it had not yet been written. The simple reading of the text demands that the Galatians cannot be under the law, there is no alternative reading available.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No, that doesn't tell us that Saturday is the last day of the week.

LOL, well the day before the 1st day of the week logically is the last...

 

[Complete in Thee]

The sabbath was given to the Israelites on Mt Sinai for the first time. They were given the Torah wihich included the Laws of God just for them.

Gentiles have never had a day of rest/sabbath.

Those who are in Christ Jesus both Jew and Gentile ( now we are One in Christ there is no jew nor gentile) are not under the LAW but under grace. Christ is our eternal rest not a day of the week.

 

[RadiantGrace]

There are so many "Christians" or "Believers" that are wiling to run their mouths without doing the work...............

“The Pope is of great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws. The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but HWHY (Yahuah), and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth...” — Lucius Ferraris, in “Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica”, Volume V, article on “Papa, Article II”, titled

You mean by not randomly quoting senseless stuff like you just did?
Can you tell me what this is from and how it is relevant?

No?

“Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility”, #30, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.

You cut and pasted this. It is isn't even a full sentence.

“We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do... Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ.” Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col.99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).

Again, Can you tell me what this is from and how it is relevant?
You don't know, you just cut and pasted random stuff.

In 1562 the Archbishop of Reggio openly declared that tradition now stood above scripture. This is what he wrote. “The authority of the Church is illustrated most clearly by the scriptures, for on one hand she recommends them, declares them to be divine, and offers them to us to be read, and on the other hand, the legal precepts in the scriptures taught by the Lord have ceased by virtue of the same authority. The Sabbath, the most glorious day in the law, has been changed into the Lord’s day. These and other similar matters have not ceased by virtue of Christ’s teaching (for He says that He has come to fulfil the law, not to destroy it), but they have been changed by the authority of the

Church.” Gaspare de Posso, Archbishop of Reggio, Council of Trent.

That's totally not completely made up. Yup, you can just quote "Council of Trent" and everyone knows what you are talking about.

In the Roman Catholic Catechism we also find the following questions and answers in regards the Sabbath:

Question: Which day is the Sabbath day?

Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?

Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic

Church in the council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday. -- Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.

This is completely false. That's not the Catholic Catechism.

 

[RadiantGrace]

By what authority did some of the early church decide to negate the 7th day for the 1st? That is the crux of the matter. It comes down to authority... either God's proclaimed day, the 7th day, or mans proclaimed day, the 1st day. Which do you choose? As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

The tenacity that people hold onto man made tradition is baffling. All God asks of us is to be obedient to what He has ordained... you wouldn't think it would be that difficult.

No one did this, this was made up by the Seventh Day Adventists to confuse and threaten people into joining them. It is a strawman argument. It is a question based on a false premise that requires you to accept the premise to answer the question. That premise is that Christians worship on Sunday because it is the Sabbath. NO. That's completely made up. They want you to think if Saturday is the Sabbath, you must worship with all Christians on that day

No one negated the Sabbath. Christians met on Sunday. They always have. Ancient writings record this. When pockets of Christians were discovered they worshiped on Sunday.

 

[RadiantGrace]

no amount of information will satisfy you, it appears that your mind is closed.

May God bless you

You didn't provide any information. You cut and pasted something without the slightest understanding of what it was. The original quote wasn't even valid. I know that. That's why I asked for verification. My mind is indeed closed to cut and pastes of unverifiable garbage that anyone dribbles on the internet. Only a fool would believe something someone quoted on the internet that had no way of verifying the original source.

 

[RadiantGrace]

So in your belief tradition trumps the word of GOD

The Word of God does not command Christians to gather on Saturn's Day. The Books of Acts, every historical Christian writing, and every isolated Christian group does without a doubt prove that Christians gathered together on Sunday. It's not like you belong to Christian sect that resorts to convincing people Christians must worship on Saturday. Like, that's all they have. They can't talk about how great their sect is. They just obsess about this single issue over and over... because, they literally named themselves after their one bad argument. To the point of making arguments about how other Christians think Sunday is the Sabbath when no one says that. They don't make cut and pastes of made up, unverifiable sources.. such as Albert Cobbler in 1885 said the Catholic Church replaced the Sabbath.. or "We doth hold upon ourselves the changers of the Sabbath" Unium Sanctius Hora Lectio Apostolia, Rerum XVI, Tantum Ver 9, pars i. As if any person would think, well gee golly, you got me now, that sounds legit.

 

[Paidiske]

MOD HAT ON
This thread has been moved to the Sabbath and The Law subforum.
Please note and abide by the Statement of Purpose of this forum.
MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The sabbath was given to the Israelites on Mt Sinai for the first time. They were given the Torah wihich included the Laws of God just for them.

Gentiles have never had a day of rest/sabbath.

Those who are in Christ Jesus both Jew and Gentile ( now we are One in Christ there is no jew nor gentile) are not under the LAW but under grace. Christ is our eternal rest not a day of the week.

Don't remember Yeshua saying, "the Sabbath was made for Jews, not Jews for the Sabbath"... Mark 2:27

 

[Complete in Thee]

Who is Jesus talking to? Jews.

 

[food4thought]

But where does the Bible say that Saturday is the last day of the week?

In Genesis 2:3 and Exodus 20:8-11 the Bible makes it clear that the Sabbath is on the 7th day of the seven day week. We have a seven day week, starting on Sunday and ending on Saturday as the seventh day... so OBVIOUSLY Saturday is the Sabbath day.

 

[food4thought]

Acts 15 is a great place to find that the NT saints were "hearing Moses preached in the synagogues every Sabbath"

That is reading into the Scripture... it simply says:

For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
(Act 15:21)

It says nothing of gentile saints attending synagogue.

and we see both gentiles AND Jews doing that very thing in Acts 18:4 - to hear the Gospel preached "every Sabbath".

Those "gentiles" were not believers in Jesus Christ (thus why they needed to be "persuaded"), but God-fearing Greeks who were attending synagogue.

Acts 15 is a great place to NOT find "Do not take God's name in vain" as a commandment singled out and applied to gentiles.

Interesting that the Jerusalem council did not see fit to enjoin gentiles to keep this commandment as Law, wouldn't you say?

Acts 15 is a great place to NOT find "Love God with all your heart" as a commandment singled out and applied to gentiles.

Isn't it interesting that not even the greatest commandment was pushed upon the gentiles as Law by the Jerusalem council?

Acts 15 is a great place to NOT find "Honor your father and mother" as a commandment singled out and applied to gentiles.

Strange that this commandment was not enforced as Law by the Jerusalem council isn't it?

Acts 15 is not an "odd" ... downsized-Bible-for-Gentiles as some have much-imagined it to be.

Never said it was. But as gentile NT saints we are not enjoined to keep the 10 commandments as Law, or any part of the Law of Moses as Law. We are to be led by the Holy Spirit (Romans 7:6; 2Corinthians 3:6), and He will obviously lead us to be loving, good, moral people

It frees them from the ceremonial law as we see in Heb 10:4-12 -- and not the moral law that "defines sin" as even the sunday scholars freely admit.

Was it just the ceremonial Law, or the traditions of the elders, that was at issue in Acts 15? What does it say in verse 5?

But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
(Act 15:5)

No mention of a distinction between ceremonial and moral law. Furthermore, when they list the Laws we are to observe, it is not just ceremonial Law that is spoken of...

For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.
(Act 15:28-29)

These bolded things are obviously not part of the ceremonial Law, so your interpretation is not correct.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Who is Jesus talking to? Jews.

Then he would have said it, but He didn't...are you related to Adam?

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 15 is a great place to find that the NT saints were "hearing Moses preached in the synagogues every Sabbath" and we see both gentiles AND Jews doing that very thing in Acts 18:4 - to hear the Gospel preached "every Sabbath".

That is reading into the Scripture... it simply says:

For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
(Act 15:21)

It says nothing of gentile saints attending synagogue.

On the contrary Acts 13 "Sabbath after Sabbath" preaching to Gentiles
In Acts 17:4 "Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath" preaching to Gentiles
Acts 18:4 "EVERY Sabbath" preaching to gentiles

Nothing at all in either case about "come back tomorrow for week-day-1 service at my house"

Acts 15 problem with gentiles is being "resolved" by this fact.

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 15 is a great place to find that the NT saints were "hearing Moses preached in the synagogues every Sabbath" and we see both gentiles AND Jews doing that very thing in Acts 18:4 - to hear the Gospel preached "every Sabbath".

Those "gentiles" were not believers in Jesus Christ (thus why they needed to be "persuaded"), but God-fearing Greeks who were attending synagogue.

They return "every Sabbath" not just one or two where they are "persuaded".

Details matter there.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

But as gentile NT saints we are not enjoined to keep the 10 commandments as Law, or any part of the Law of Moses as Law. We are to be led by the Holy Spirit (Romans 7:6; 2Corinthians 3:6), and He will obviously lead us to be loving, good, moral people.

For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.
(Act 15:28-29)

Yeshua said love God and your neighbor...these 2 summarize the 10 Commandments. The first 4 are how to show you love God and the last 6 are how to love your neighbor.

Those are the Noahide laws in Acts...

 

[Complete in Thee]

Yeshua said love God and your neighbor...these 2 summarize the 10 Commandments. The first 4 are how to show you love God and the last 6 are how to love your neighbor.

Those are the Noahide laws in Acts...

Exactly

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 15 is a great place to NOT find "Do not take God's name in vain" as a commandment singled out and applied to gentiles.

Acts 15 is a great place to NOT find "Love God with all your heart" as a commandment singled out and applied to gentiles.

Acts 15 is a great place to NOT find "Honor your father and mother" as a commandment singled out and applied to gentiles.

Acts 15 is not an "odd" ... downsized-Bible-for-Gentiles as some have much-imagined it to be.

It frees them from the ceremonial law as we see in Heb 10:4-12 -- and not the moral law that "defines sin" as even the sunday scholars freely admit.

Interesting that the Jerusalem council did not see fit to enjoin gentiles to keep this commandment as Law, wouldn't you say?

Isn't it interesting that not even the greatest commandment was pushed upon the gentiles as Law by the Jerusalem council?

Strange that this commandment was not enforced as Law by the Jerusalem council isn't it?

At that point your entire argument failed because of Ephesians 6:2

I said "Acts 15 is a great place to NOT find "Honor your father and mother" as a commandment singled out and applied to gentiles.

You said

Strange that this commandment was not enforced as Law by the Jerusalem council isn't it?

And the surmise/infer/conjecture argument you make gets wiped out in Romans 13 and Eph 6:2

2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

That is a direct appeal to the law as a "commandment" and specifically to the unit of Law the "TEN Commandments" in which it is singularly "the first commandment with a promise" - not true of all the writings of Moses, not true of all the NT only true in that singular unit of TEN.

Paul goes out of his way in Eph 6:2 to drag the TEN into the discussion where the alternative was "Hey - I am Paul - I write scripture ... this is true because I say it is .. no appeal to TEN Commandments"

Acts 15 cannot be bent to the usages some have sought for it.

 

[BobRyan]

Yeshua said love God and your neighbor...these 2 summarize the 10 Commandments. The first 4 are how to show you love God and the last 6 are how to love your neighbor.

Those are the Noahide laws in Acts...

In Matthew 19 Jesus said "keep the Commandments" and He is asked "which ones" at which point we find the same list from the TEN as you find in Romans 13 given by Paul.

Nothing there about not taking God's name in vain.
Or loving God with all your heart..

Yet in Matthew 22 Jesus said that Loving God with all your heart also applies.

This shows the repeated efforts to "downsize" the Word of God that we have seen at times on this topic -efforts to delete/downsize the Commandments of God - have failed.