Arguments/hypotheticals against Christianity

Silmarien

Existentialist
Feb 24, 2017
4,337
5,254
38
New York
✟215,724.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
And then, even further back, there was Abraham, who was also troubled by how God would deal with the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. [Which is the moral dilemma within, and the point of, Abraham's dialogue with the personage in Genesis who is essentially ... the pre-incarnate Jesus. What irony! What Jewish genius! :D ] And for an interesting, but decidedly non-Christian, yet Jewish legal evaluation of this, you might want to read the treatment of this account presented by Alan M. Dershowitz in his book, The Genesis of Justice. I'm sure that one who is as academically and as legally minded/trained as yourself would appreciate Dershowitz' comments (although I'm not saying that his are the only ones we might consider--no, but I'd consider his first, in this case. ;)).

Well, I've managed to read the bits and pieces of it that are available on the Amazon preview. It does look interesting, so I'll need to grab the whole thing at some point.

I'm not sure how helpful it is, though, since the conclusion seems to be, "There is no perfect justice in this world, so religion only works if you believe in an afterlife where all is put right." Which may well be true, though as a believer in restorative rather than retributive justice, I will still have some differences with the standard interpretation of that.

My takeaway is that the Old Testament is basically the Israelites attempt to reconcile belief in a God who cares about justice with the reality of an ultimately unjust world. If we'd killed off all our enemies when we had the chance, they would not have been around to oppress us later, so surely God is angry at us for not wiping everyone out. And related sentiments.

Bigger issues in theodicy set aside, I really don't see how you could hold that God actually commanded genocide without committing yourself to a radical moral relativism.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Of course, it's all ...about the Son!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,224
9,981
The Void!
✟1,135,385.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Well, I've managed to read the bits and pieces of it that are available on the Amazon preview. It does look interesting, so I'll need to grab the whole thing at some point.

I'm not sure how helpful it is, though, since the conclusion seems to be, "There is no perfect justice in this world, so religion only works if you believe in an afterlife where all is put right." Which may well be true, though as a believer in restorative rather than retributive justice, I will still have some differences with the standard interpretation of that.

My takeaway is that the Old Testament is basically the Israelites attempt to reconcile belief in a God who cares about justice with the reality of an ultimately unjust world. If we'd killed off all our enemies when we had the chance, they would not have been around to oppress us later, so surely God is angry at us for not wiping everyone out. And related sentiments.

Bigger issues in theodicy set aside, I really don't see how you could hold that God actually commanded genocide without committing yourself to a radical moral relativism.

Darth-Vader-Lack-of-Cheer-Holiday-Sweater2.jpg


...but Merry Orthodox Christmas, anyway, Silmarien!!! :cool:
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Silmarien
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Of course, it's all ...about the Son!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,224
9,981
The Void!
✟1,135,385.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Well, I've managed to read the bits and pieces of it that are available on the Amazon preview. It does look interesting, so I'll need to grab the whole thing at some point.
Well, if you want, I can cull out some bullet points over which we can discuss from Dershowitz' book, so you wouldn't have to buy the book, unless it really does look interesting to you. Of course, this isn't the only book that informs my overall axiology. There's much more from where that came from. ;)

I'm not sure how helpful it is, though, since the conclusion seems to be, "There is no perfect justice in this world, so religion only works if you believe in an afterlife where all is put right." Which may well be true, though as a believer in restorative rather than retributive justice, I will still have some differences with the standard interpretation of that.
I'm a believer in both kinds of justice, but it's also a matter of discerning all of the issues involving "when, where, what, why and/or for whom" which cause the most problems when evaluating each moral situation involving issues of justice. To which you can just respond and say, "Well, Duh, Philo!!!"

My takeaway is that the Old Testament is basically the Israelites attempt to reconcile belief in a God who cares about justice with the reality of an ultimately unjust world. If we'd killed off all our enemies when we had the chance, they would not have been around to oppress us later, so surely God is angry at us for not wiping everyone out. And related sentiments.
I can understand that this may be your "takeaway" at this point. But, I would say that there are a number of biblical contexts to consider, as well as issues regarding our grounds for holding whatever moral view we do happen to hold and by which we attempt to "judge" God and His actions. It's my contention that none of those grounds are anything that any of us can just appeal to as self-evident, except by way of the flimsiest of axioms.

I also think that Marcion deserves a good spanking ... ^_^

Bigger issues in theodicy set aside, I really don't see how you could hold that God actually commanded genocide without committing yourself to a radical moral relativism.
I guess this is (surprisingly) yet one more area in which we may disagree. I see this as a matter of recognizing that God is absolute in His view and in His nature, even if not precisely for the simple reason that some theologians try to dredge out instead, i.e. that God is somehow "right" due to some cheaply defined Divine Command Theories. No, I think there's more complexity to it than it all than that, and from where I stand, respectively and relatively, it isn't a matter of moral relativism.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Silmarien

Existentialist
Feb 24, 2017
4,337
5,254
38
New York
✟215,724.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Well, if you want, I can cull out some bullet points over which we can discuss from this book, so you wouldn't have to buy the book, unless it really does look interesting to you. Of course, this isn't the only book that informs my overall axiology. There's much more from where that came from. ;)

Oh, my local library system has it, so I won't need to buy it at all. I want to get through a couple of the books that I have bought first, though, so you may need to remind me. ^_^

I can understand that this may be your "takeaway" at this point. But, I would say that there are a number of biblical contexts to consider, as well as issues regarding our grounds for holding whatever moral view we do happen to hold and by which we attempt to "judge" God's actions. It's my contention that none of those grounds are anything that any of us can just appeal to as self-evident, except by way of the flimsiest of axioms.

It's not even necessarily a matter of judging God's actions for me. The nature of the Old Testament and how it came about makes it almost impossible for me to view it as entirely theologically reliable in its own right. If people clearly understood God's nature and what was expected of them, they'd be perfect already, no need for the Incarnation.

I guess this is (surprisingly) yet one more area in which we may disagree. I see this as a matter of recognizing that God is absolute in His view and in His nature, even if not precisely for the simple reason that some theologians try to dredge out instead, i.e. that God is somehow "right" due to some cheaply defined Divine Command Theories. No, I think there's more complexity to it than it all than that, and from where I stand, respectively and relatively, it isn't a matter of moral relativism.

Well, I do it's inappropriate to look at the concept of omnibenevolence from a purely human perspective--the Problem of Evil makes this approach rather untenable. On the other hand, if the concept of goodness as applied to God is so different than the concept when applied to humans, can God even be considered good at all? So you can't do away with the human perspective on morality entirely without losing omnibenevolence as well.

The real problem with divinely mandated genocide, however, is that it would mean that it is sometimes okay for humans to commit such crimes. I don't think the various acts of destruction committed by God personally in the Old Testament are as serious a problem as some make them out to be, since we do need to account for the reality of natural disasters regardless, but if it was at one point justified or even commendable for humans to commit genocide, then there can't be anything inherently evil about it. I don't know how you can avoid a crude Divine Command Theory, since the only thing that seems to be "good" is obedience.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2PhiloVoid
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Of course, it's all ...about the Son!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,224
9,981
The Void!
✟1,135,385.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Oh, my local library system has it, so I won't need to buy it at all. I want to get through a couple of the books that I have bought first, though, so you may need to remind me. ^_^
No problem. Take your time. In fact, I really wouldn't want to interrupt any intensive studies you may be doing at the present moment.

It's not even necessarily a matter of judging God's actions for me. The nature of the Old Testament and how it came about makes it almost impossible for me to view it as entirely theologically reliable in its own right. If people clearly understood God's nature and what was expected of them, they'd be perfect already, no need for the Incarnation.

Well, I do it's inappropriate to look at the concept of omnibenevolence from a purely human perspective--the Problem of Evil makes this approach rather untenable. On the other hand, if the concept of goodness as applied to God is so different than the concept when applied to humans, can God even be considered good at all? So you can't do away with the human perspective on morality entirely without losing omnibenevolence as well.

The real problem with divinely mandated genocide, however, is that it would mean that it is sometimes okay for humans to commit such crimes. I don't think the various acts of destruction committed by God personally in the Old Testament are as serious a problem as some make them out to be, since we do need to account for the reality of natural disasters regardless, but if it was at one point justified or even commendable for humans to commit genocide, then there can't be anything inherently evil about it. I don't know how you can avoid a crude Divine Command Theory, since the only thing that seems to be "good" is obedience.

Hmmmmm....... ...based on the three paragraphs you've written above, I can see we have a whole LOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTT to discuss at some point in the future, if and when you get time and if you feel you want to do that. And it should be interesting since you can bring in your knowledge on the Legal Philosophies and Ethics that may apply to these intricate, interlaced issues, and I can bring in the Social Philosophy/Ethics/Theological side of it (which is all directly related to the legal/political, as I'm sure you also already know). :cool:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Silmarien
Upvote 0

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟168,333.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
Hearing the two of you argue, I find my own sense of morality validated once more:

@2PhiloVoid's stance basically embodies the morally void, authoritarian religiosity that could wade knee-deep through the blood and entrails of butchered victims if sufficiently convinced that this was the Divine Will. A dead-eyed, theistic Stalinism where good and evil are determined by power, and where the best thing anybody could hope for is ingratiating themselves with the most powerful entity around, since that one gets to determine whether it's good or evil to bash your brains out.

@Silmarien, on the other hand, basically is of my party without knowing it, identifying God with the dialogic, argued, and collectively developed sense of "common human decency" that our species has gradually refined (and is still refining) over the course of history.

And, yes, I'm willing to concede that a good part of the way there led through Judaism and Christianity - or at least, certain versions of the same.

See, the Bible is not like the Qur'an, not a monolithic whole. It's an anthology of different people communicating their unique interpretation of deity and their relationship with the same - Judaism more so than Christianity. One of the greatest strengths of that religion is its immense appreciation for dialogue and discussion. Heck, a considerable part of their tradition is a collection of debates on how to read the Scriptures.
Christians were not *much* worse, although their scriptures do not cover a similarly wide range, and most of church history was spent trying to pretend that they *were* a monolithic whole. But discussion had a place in its history, ultimately inspiring the formation of universities and - on a tangent - the scientific method.
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,796
✟247,431.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I'm working on a sermon and it sort of relates to this topic in a way so it got me wondering...

1. What are the most common hypotheticals/arguments against Christianity

2. What are some hypotheticals/arguments that you have heard or read yourself?


3. If you're an atheist or agnostic then what are some you use or believe in that cause you to not be convinced of the Christian God.

I was a christian most of my life, but there were several reasons i could no longer reconcile the basic christian theology.

The momentum started when i chose to thoroughly investigate the NT, by reading the works of various well credentialed NT scholars and historians. I learned quite a bit through that process, which causes me to take a step back and really analyze my belief. As i did and i overlay the basic christian theology, with the evidence we have about the world and universe we live in, it just did not align with any level of logic to me. The traits christianity places on god, dont relate to the world we live in. Also, the whole piece of christianity (most christians at least) that one must be a christian or they are basically doomed, appears morally corrupt to me and quite primitive. Tends to smell like a man made religion, that wants to scare people to stay in line. If you look at the world, ones religion is mostly formed by where one was born and who their parents where, which is another indicator different cultures search for answers and form their own religion. According to many who are christians, 2/3 of the worlds population is doomed. Not quite the loving god who cares for all his creation equally.
 
Upvote 0

JESUS=G.O.A.T

Well-Known Member
Dec 29, 2016
2,681
659
27
Houston
✟68,441.00
Country
United States
Faith
Apostolic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I was a christian most of my life, but there were several reasons i could no longer reconcile the basic christian theology.

The momentum started when i chose to thoroughly investigate the NT, by reading the works of various well credentialed NT scholars and historians. I learned quite a bit through that process, which causes me to take a step back and really analyze my belief. As i did and i overlay the basic christian theology, with the evidence we have about the world and universe we live in, it just did not align with any level of logic to me. The traits christianity places on god, dont relate to the world we live in. Also, the whole piece of christianity (most christians at least) that one must be a christian or they are basically doomed, appears morally corrupt to me and quite primitive. Tends to smell like a man made religion, that wants to scare people to stay in line. If you look at the world, ones religion is mostly formed by where one was born and who their parents where, which is another indicator different cultures search for answers and form their own religion. According to many who are christians, 2/3 of the worlds population is doomed. Not quite the loving god who cares for all his creation equally.

If one defines God as just being Love and not being Holy then sure I can understand your last sentence. I just feel people have to take that into account some as myself look at God as a holy God and a God of love. As a result sure he loves people...but if they aren't holy it defies his Holy nature to have much to do with that.

But sure if one defines God as love alone (which most seem to be doing nowadays) then yeah the whole hell thing doesn't make sense. Why not take everyone seperate or not.


ANd interesting Good reply.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Of course, it's all ...about the Son!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,224
9,981
The Void!
✟1,135,385.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Hearing the two of you argue, I find my own sense of morality validated once more:

@2PhiloVoid's stance basically embodies the morally void, authoritarian religiosity that could wade knee-deep through the blood and entrails of butchered victims if sufficiently convinced that this was the Divine Will. A dead-eyed, theistic Stalinism where good and evil are determined by power, and where the best thing anybody could hope for is ingratiating themselves with the most powerful entity around, since that one gets to determine whether it's good or evil to bash your brains out.

Theistic Stalinism? The morally void? Wow. I'm impressed, Jane. You figured me out all by your lonesome, without asking me a single question. I guess my religious cover is blown now; time for me to run for the hills. :rolleyes:
 
Upvote 0

Silmarien

Existentialist
Feb 24, 2017
4,337
5,254
38
New York
✟215,724.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
@Silmarien, on the other hand, basically is of my party without knowing it, identifying God with the dialogic, argued, and collectively developed sense of "common human decency" that our species has gradually refined (and is still refining) over the course of history.

Well, no. I'm actually more of a Platonist, so I identify God with the Ultimate Good that humanity has always been grasping for (albeit imperfectly). The idea that we're "refining" morality is incoherent to me if there is nothing transcendent involved--we would just be going around in circles, with no system of morality inherently "better" than any other. I do believe that all moral systems are ultimately approximations and thus imperfect, but I'm not a relativist.

How I view Christianity, including how it relates to the Old Testament, is best summed up with this quote by the Anglican theologian John Macquarrie:

"That God should come into history, that he should come in humility, helplessness and poverty - this contradicted everything - this contradicted everything that people had believed about the gods. It was the end of the power of deities, the Marduks, the Jupiters.. .yes, and even of Yahweh, to the extent that he had been misconstrued on the same model. The life that began in a cave ended on the cross, and there was the final conflict between power and love, the idols and the true God, false religion and true religion."
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟168,333.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
Ah, Platonists, always putting ideas before existence instead of the other way around.
And all because the Greeks adopted a script without also adopting the sounds' meaning, creating a frame of reference that was removed from reality. But... that's a different story.

See, value judgments aren't rocket science, nor do they depend upon metaphysical authorities.
Nature knows many different survival strategies and forms of "fitness", admittedly, and even anti-social behaviour has roots in natural selection (such as the mimikry of a sociopath, or mass rape in war zones).
But if a species evolves to survive by means of cooperation and bonding, there's a limited number of configurations that will be successful, and these remain consistent even in non-human species.

What makes homo sapiens so interesting is our capacity to expand upon the humble social impulses we inherit: whereas nature supplies us with social responses that simultaneously trigger displays of intense solidarity AND lynch mobs (both based on feelings of reciprocity), recorded history shows that we *are* gradually improving our social interactions, if at a snail's pace. The death penalty is, for the most part, a thing of the past. Torture is no longer regarded as a legitimate means of punishment. Some countries even realize that the very concept of justice as revenge only creates more dangerous monsters, and gradually starts to seek to re-socialize rather than de-humanize inmates.
Marriages are no longer ownership contracts placing women in utter socio-economic dependency. Monarchies are no longer the default form of rule.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: bhsmte
Upvote 0

Silmarien

Existentialist
Feb 24, 2017
4,337
5,254
38
New York
✟215,724.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Ah, Platonists, always putting ideas before existence instead of the other way around.
And all because the Greeks adopted a script without also adopting the sounds' meaning, creating a frame of reference that was removed from reality. But... that's a different story.

I am not sure how you could even begin to argue that Parmenides' and Heraclitus's philosophies of being and change are the result of confusion over the Phoenician alphabet. Did this alleged detachment from reality also affect the Greek mathematicians, scientists, and statesmen, or were only the Platonists affected?

See, value judgments aren't rocket science, nor do they depend upon metaphysical authorities.

No, they're not rocket science. Metaethics is much trickier than engineering. We have gone over this before--the problem is not with using evolutionary psychology to explain moral intuitions, the problem lies in equating evolutionary success with moral truth. You need an Aristotelian natural law to say that what we are biologically adapted for is good for us, and even there, a little bit of Platonism goes a long way. If you can't identify existence with goodness, then there is no reason to see the survival of a species as positive at all.

This is not a matter of needing metaphysical authority. My focus is not authority at all.

What makes homo sapiens so interesting is our capacity to expand upon the humble social impulses we inherit: whereas nature supplies us with social responses that simultaneously trigger displays of intense solidarity AND lynch mobs (both based on feelings of reciprocity), recorded history shows that we *are* gradually improving our social interactions, if at a snail's pace. The death penalty is, for the most part, a thing of the past. Torture is no longer regarded as a legitimate means of punishment. Some countries even realize that the very concept of justice as revenge only creates more dangerous monsters, and gradually starts to seek to re-socialize rather than de-humanize inmates.
Marriages are no longer ownership contracts placing women in utter socio-economic dependency. Monarchies are no longer the default form of rule.

What is wrong with the death penalty?

What is wrong with torture?

What is wrong with placing women in positions of socio-economic dependency?

What is wrong with monarchies?

You can't have progress without an actual standard. Why are our ideals, based Western traditions of individual liberty, better than a authoritarian society based around social stability or even warrior virtues? Outside of a religious context, there is nothing axiomatic about human dignity. Singapore has some of the lowest crime rates in the world, as one would expect of a county with draconian legal punishments. It clearly works in maintaining a stable society, so what's wrong with it?
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,796
✟247,431.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I am not sure how you could even begin to argue that Parmenides' and Heraclitus's philosophies of being and change are the result of confusion over the Phoenician alphabet. Did this alleged detachment from reality also affect the Greek mathematicians, scientists, and statesmen, or were only the Platonists affected?



No, they're not rocket science. Metaethics is much trickier than engineering. We have gone over this before--the problem is not with using evolutionary psychology to explain moral intuitions, the problem lies in equating evolutionary success with moral truth. You need an Aristotelian natural law to say that what we are biologically adapted for is good for us, and even there, a little bit of Platonism goes a long way. If you can't identify existence with goodness, then there is no reason to see the survival of a species as positive at all.

This is not a matter of needing metaphysical authority. My focus is not authority at all.



What is wrong with the death penalty?

What is wrong with torture?

What is wrong with placing women in positions of socio-economic dependency?

What is wrong with monarchies?

You can't have progress without an actual standard. Why are our ideals, based Western traditions of individual liberty, better than a authoritarian society based around social stability or even warrior virtues? Outside of a religious context, there is nothing axiomatic about human dignity. Singapore has some of the lowest crime rates in the world, as one would expect of a county with draconian legal punishments. It clearly works in maintaining a stable society, so what's wrong with it?

Crime rates and quality of life indexes are not a good measure for more religious countries. In general, countries that have a LOWER percentage of religious people, have lower crime rates.
 
Upvote 0

Silmarien

Existentialist
Feb 24, 2017
4,337
5,254
38
New York
✟215,724.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Crime rates and quality of life indexes are not a good measure for more religious countries. In general, countries that have a LOWER percentage of religious people, have lower crime rates.

What does religion have to do with anything? An atheist can be a moral Platonist. It's simultaneously championing moral relativism and Western values which makes no sense.
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,796
✟247,431.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
What does religion have to do with anything? An atheist can be a moral Platonist. It's simultaneously championing moral relativism and Western values which makes no sense.

The data is the data and their is a strong correlation.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Silmarien

Existentialist
Feb 24, 2017
4,337
5,254
38
New York
✟215,724.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
The data is the data and their is a strong correlation.

Between moral relativism and Western values???

I don't think we're even having the same conversation.
 
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Ah, Platonists, always putting ideas before existence instead of the other way around.
And all because the Greeks adopted a script without also adopting the sounds' meaning, creating a frame of reference that was removed from reality. But... that's a different story.
What fresh silliness is this? Funny that you would talk of being 'removed from reality'...

The West Semitic Abjads that became the Greek Alphabet had already made the leap from representation of object to pure abstract of sound. The very fact of them being abjads mean that they no longer represented the word themselves. True they started out as A is for Apple, B is for Bear (of course not representing vowels though), but this direct connection between a word and its initial sound had long ago been lost. So the Greeks were already adopting an abstract system to begin with.

I find it odd, and frankly a bit insulting to Middle Eastern civilisations, that you think an abstract frame of reference 'divorced from reality' had to be created. Have you ever read the Epic of Gilgamesh? Or read up on near eastern mythology or Astrology? The Egyptians had major gods that essentially embodied concepts like Ma'at for truth, or broad Indo-European ideas like Rta for right conduct.

Anyway, what do you think modern theoretical physics is doing other than putting abstract models ahead of reality? Essentially we are taught none of our observations are completely reliable, since they change depending on our speed and so forth, or that the act of observation alters the observed state. They try and base it on empiric observation, but fashion a reality to which the observations are asked conform to; an idealised state is essentially assumed which our observations are taken to imperfectly reflect - as in the Perfect Gas Laws or concepts of pressure. Does this not sound awfully familiar?

See, value judgments aren't rocket science, nor do they depend upon metaphysical authorities.
Nature knows many different survival strategies and forms of "fitness", admittedly, and even anti-social behaviour has roots in natural selection (such as the mimikry of a sociopath, or mass rape in war zones).
But if a species evolves to survive by means of cooperation and bonding, there's a limited number of configurations that will be successful, and these remain consistent even in non-human species.

What makes homo sapiens so interesting is our capacity to expand upon the humble social impulses we inherit: whereas nature supplies us with social responses that simultaneously trigger displays of intense solidarity AND lynch mobs (both based on feelings of reciprocity), recorded history shows that we *are* gradually improving our social interactions, if at a snail's pace. The death penalty is, for the most part, a thing of the past. Torture is no longer regarded as a legitimate means of punishment. Some countries even realize that the very concept of justice as revenge only creates more dangerous monsters, and gradually starts to seek to re-socialize rather than de-humanize inmates.
Marriages are no longer ownership contracts placing women in utter socio-economic dependency. Monarchies are no longer the default form of rule.
As I told you before, to measure one thing against another as an improvement, requires a third thing against which both must be measured that one conforms to more closely than the other.
In morality, this must be an absolute moral state or at least the concept that such a thing exists. If morality is determined by convention, it is merely my preference vs yours. How are we "improving social interactions"? If the Third Reich ruled the world, would it not have been improvement then to euthanise the genetically defective? That exact same argument could then also have been made, and probably fits mechanism of natural selection much better. Be careful of the company you keep.

No, there is no Progess if nothing to progress to. There would only be what is, and whatever way that developed would then be perceived as 'progress' retrospectively. Morality conceived along those lines is no morality at all, merely the facetious and Jingoistic acceptance of whatever you agree with as if so. This is how we breed more clever devils, or create Men without Chests in Lewis' parlance.
 
Upvote 0

Silmarien

Existentialist
Feb 24, 2017
4,337
5,254
38
New York
✟215,724.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
You brought up crime and i followed up.

No, I brought up a successful, stable city-state that has a very different approach to justice than the Western world. Singapore is secular, so the point isn't religion. It's that we can't say that Singapore is wrong about their draconian legal system without appealing to a moral standard.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,796
✟247,431.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
No, I brought up a successful, stable city-state that has a very different approach to justice than the Western world. Singapore is secular, so the point isn't religion. It's that we can't say that Singapore is wrong about their draconian legal system without appealing to a moral standard.

You mentioned crime rates in the post, i responded in regards to crime rate trends throughout the world, in relation to how religious the population is.
 
Upvote 0