Romans 14 settles the whole debate

[LoveGodsWord]

Here is a look at Romans 14, focusing on the chapter's CONTEXT and overall subject matter.

Some helpful questions that need to be considered is what is the CONTEXT of the chapter talking about?

Where in the chapter or in the whole book of Romans does it even mention God's 4th commandment of the 7th day Sabbath of God's commandment?

If the whole chapter or book of Romans does not even mention God's LAW, the 4th commandment of the 7th day Sabbath of God's LAW why do you think it is talking about God's LAW (10 commandments)?

The simple truth is that the Chapter is not about God's commandment as it is not even mentioned.

Let's look at the chapter and see what it is talking about...........

Romans 14
1, Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.The first thing we see here is that this chapter is about relating to a weak brother.
2, For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3, Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4, Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Now to the meat and potatoes…

5, One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6, He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Why is eating and fasting (not eating) connected to days here? Let’s see…...............

(6), He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

links to .....

Isaiah 58
5, Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

links to.....

Luke 18
11, The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12, I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

From Bullingers Companion Bible…........

Luke 18:12
Twice in the week. The law prescribed only one in the year (Lev_16:29. Num_29:7). By the time of Zec_8:19 there were four yearly fasts. In our Lord's day they were bi-weekly (Monday and Thursday), between Passover and Pentecost; and between the Feast of Tabernacles and the Dedication.

Yes they fasted sometimes two days a week and also annually in the feasts of Lev 23.

7, For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8, For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9, For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10, But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother?
for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11, For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12, So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13, Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14, I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean <ceremonially profaned, defiled or unholy> of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean<ceremonially profaned, defiled or unholy>, to him it is unclean.
15, But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

(14) At the time meat and drink were offered to pagan idols. After it was offered it was sold in a meat market called the ‘Shambles’.

1Cor 10
25, Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

Shambles ; μάκελλον; makellon; mak'-el-lon Of Latin origin [macellum ]; a butcher's stall, meat market or provision shop: - shambles.

There were those who were weak in the faith (verse 1) who were offended by the thought of food being offered to idols. They somehow thought that eating that food was somehow connecting them with the idolatrous practices around them.

It is very clear from reading the scriptures that this whole Chapter has nothing whatsoever at all to do with the 4th commandment which is to keep Holy the 7th day Sabbath

What is Romans 14:1-15 talking about ?

1. The chapter is talking about a number of related topics
2. Overall it is talking about not juding those who are weak in the faith in relation to FOOD connected to days or days dedicated to the Lord and that is all it is talking about.
3. Food connected to days in usually in relation to the annual festivals or fasting connected to weekly or Holy days unto the Lord (Lev 16:29. Num 29:7; Issaiah 58:5; Luke 18:11-12).
4. There is no mention of the Sabbath or God's 4th commandment in this chapter or the entire book of Romans.
5. Romans 14 is not talking about ABOLISHING ANY DAYS but only talking about judging others in relation to food or fasting connected to days dedicated to the LORD and food offered to idols.
6. The Chapter is consistant with all the other writing of Paul in relation to the jewish annual holy days fulfilled in Christ (eg, Colossains 2; Ephesians 2; Galatains 4:10; Hebrews 9:9-15; 10:1-17).
7. Paul's topics is summarised in v17; For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

It is very clear from reading the scriptures that this whole Chapter has nothing whatsoever at all to do with the 4th commandment which is to keep Holy the 7th day Sabbath

.............

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

There is not one scripture in ALL of God's WORD that says God's 4th commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to worship God on Sunday in it's place.

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

In times of ignorance God winks at but now calls all men every where to REPENT for the KINGDOM of HEAVEN is at HAND (Acts 17:30-31)

Hope this helps. May God bless you as you seek him through His Word and seek to follow it.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I guess that is one way to try to wiggle out of it.

 

[ralliann]

the attention to Galatians 4 details would be helpful

Here Paul looks at the "details" of these formerly-pagan Christians stating that they are losing Christianity if they observe pagan days.

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

The issue was Judaizing. Which was a turning from the priesthood of Christ being persuaded or bewitched to return to the equally weak elements of the Levitical order.
Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak <772> and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?


Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness <772> and unprofitableness thereof.

Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

 

[BobRyan]

Worship of the True God for the one worshiping Him is not a pagan holiday, no matter what the Pagans are doing.

the attention to Galatians 4 details would be helpful

Here Paul looks at the "details" of these formerly-pagan Christians stating that they are losing Christianity if they observe pagan days.

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

The issue was Judaizing. Which was a turning from the priesthood of Christ

That was only one of the issues as the details above show.

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

The "return to paganism" was also a problem

Paul does not argue that the pagans "used to be Jews" before becoming Christians.

Paul also does not argue that scripture "is paganism"

 

[ralliann]

the attention to Galatians 4 details would be helpful

Here Paul looks at the "details" of these formerly-pagan Christians stating that they are losing Christianity if they observe pagan days.

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.




That was only one of the issues as the details above show.

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

The "return to paganism" was also a problem

Paul does not argue that the pagans "used to be Jews" before becoming Christians.

Paul also does not argue that scripture "is paganism"

Paul argues that earthly worldly order of the Levitical priesthood is weak, and unprofitable. He is not addressing paganism, but Judaizing.
Here he is speaking Israel, which gave the Levites all the tenth.
Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

The Sons of Aaron, and the Levites were no more god by nature, than pagan priests.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

 

[BobRyan]

Paul argues that earthly worldly order of the Levitical priesthood is weak, and unprofitable. He is not addressing paganism, but Judaizing.
Here he is speaking Israel, which gave the Levites all the tenth.
Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

The Sons of Aaron, and the Levites were no more god by nature, than pagan priests.

Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glory in Matthew 17.. because the Gospel worked before the cross just like it still works today.

Gal 4 starts off dealing with the sinful nature of all mankind.

Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

However a few verses later Paul then gets into the "gentiles" the pagans that converted to Christianity -- ie - the church in Galatia.

Gal 4

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.


Notice that in Hebrews 11 Paul provides a long list of OT saints that DID know God.

 

[ralliann]

Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glory in Matthew 17.. because the Gospel worked before the cross just like it still works today.

Gal 4 starts off dealing with the sinful nature of all mankind.

Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

However a few verses later Paul then gets into the "gentiles" the pagans that converted to Christianity -- ie - the church in Galatia.

Gal 4

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.


Notice that in Hebrews 11 Paul provides a long list of OT saints that DID know God.

This is what Paul was addressing. He was not addressing them being bewitched by other pagans, to keep their holy days. He was addressing their being bewhiched to keep the law.
None of the rulers were by nature God.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

There is no more left to argue here anymore I think it will be fruitless for both of us,,,,so....
Blessings to you

 

[Sheep dog]

Here is a look at Romans 14, focusing on the chapter's CONTEXT and overall subject matter.

Some helpful questions that need to be considered is what is the CONTEXT of the chapter talking about?

Where in the chapter or in the whole book of Romans does it even mention God's 4th commandment of the 7th day Sabbath of God's commandment?

If the whole chapter or book of Romans does not even mention God's LAW, the 4th commandment of the 7th day Sabbath of God's LAW why do you think it is talking about God's LAW (10 commandments)?

The simple truth is that the Chapter is not about God's commandment as it is not even mentioned.

Question: do you regard one day different than the rest? If so what day would that be?

 

[BobRyan]

Question: do you regard one day different than the rest? If so what day would that be?

In reference to the Bible approved list of annual holy days given in Lev 23 we have this

Rom 14
5 One person obsreves one day above another; another observes every day . Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

But in reference to observing pagan days we have this

Gal 4
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.


Romans 14 defends the observance of all the annual holy days of the Bible. Gal 4 condemns any sort of observance of even ONE pagan day.

Neither of them deal with deleting or downsizing God's Commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

This is what Paul was addressing. He was not addressing them being bewitched by other pagans,

He addresses many topics even in Gal 4 where in vs 1-5 he is dealing with the sinful nature and the fact that all are sinners according to the moral law of God that defines what sin is.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the LAW"

Gal 4
Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons





But then Gal 4:8-11 goes on to deal specifically with gentiles - formerly-pagan Galatians. Condemning them for returning to a form of paganism. He does not call the Word of God -- paganism.

Gal 4
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

 

[Sheep dog]

In reference to the Bible approved list of annual holy days given in Lev 23 we have this

Rom 14
5 One person obsreves one day above another; another observes every day . Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

The question is: do you regard one day different than the rest? True enough you posted the verse in question. The person I asked also posted it. So you've not responded to the question.

But in reference to observing pagan days we have this

Gal 4
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

Let's take your idea and run with it.

There's no pro law statements in Galatians.

Paul is still dealing with the Judaizers. They followed him everywhere.

This issue was discussed at the council held in Jerusalem. The results were the gentiles didn't have to observe the law. There is no command from the council to attend the synagogue. If there were, do you attend? Why or why not?

Romans 14 defends the observance of all the annual holy days of the Bible. Gal 4 condemns any sort of observance of even ONE pagan day.

There's no evidence in Galatians the previously pagans returned to worshiping pagan gods. The observance of days are the Jewish religious days.

Neither of them deal with deleting or downsizing God's Commandments.

Paul no where promotes obligation to the law. In Galatians 4 Paul relates by allegory we're to throw out the law. In 5 Paul indicates to return to the law voids salvation. He also admonishes the Galatians to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit instead of the law in v 18. If Paul was promoting obligation to the law why would he instruct us to be led by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Sheep dog]

He addresses many topics even in Gal 4 where in vs 1-5 he is dealing with the sinful nature and the fact that all are sinners according to the moral law of God that defines what sin is.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Please show where Paul says Christians are under the law. Paul said: But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom 7:6 This makes no distinction about some part or effect of the law.

1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the LAW"

This is a partial quote. You probably are making reference to the ten commandments. Since the Christian is delivered from the law, it's impossible to violate it. Jesus said: “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. LK 22:20 Jesus didn't say anything about an amended or continued covenant.

Gal 4
Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons

Your red underlined is speaking specifically to the Jews. Romans 2:12 states gentiles are with out the law. Your red underlined doesn't apply. Roman 3:19 doesn't place the entire world under the law. The next verse indicates no one can be righteous God requires by the law. This is also taught in the OT.

But then Gal 4:8-11 goes on to deal specifically with gentiles - formerly-pagan Galatians. Condemning them for returning to a form of paganism. He does not call the Word of God -- paganism.

Gal 4
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

Sorry but your statement above isn't true. Paul is addressing the days and months of Lev 23 the Judaizers were trying to force on new converts. They weren't converts to Judaism. If you care to look in Acts the Jews persecuted those of the Way and those called Christians. Christians weren't known as or called Jews even though many of them were in the early church.

 

[ralliann]

The question is: do you regard one day different than the rest? True enough you posted the verse in question. The person I asked also posted it. So you've not responded to the question.Let's take your idea and run with it.

There's no pro law statements in Galatians.

Paul is still dealing with the Judaizers. They followed him everywhere.

Indeed. It is quite obvious IMO. It was a universal problem since the gospel was just newly being preached beyond Jews. The perversion of the gospel was coming from Jew's, not Gentiles.
Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

This issue was discussed at the council held in Jerusalem. The results were the gentiles didn't have to observe the law. There is no command from the council to attend the synagogue. If there were, do you attend? Why or why not?There's no evidence in Galatians the previously pagans returned to worshiping pagan gods. The observance of days are the Jewish religious days.Paul no where promotes obligation to the law. In Galatians 4 Paul relates by allegory we're to throw out the law. In 5 Paul indicates to return to the law voids salvation. He also admonishes the Galatians to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit instead of the law in v 18. If Paul was promoting obligation to the law why would he instruct us to be led by the Holy Spirit?

Again, indeed it is pretty obvious in reading the entire new testament.
The warnings were concerning the perversion of the Gospel which was preached to the Jew's first, and those Jews which chose to pervert it, and pretend to be believers as well.
Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

The continued arguments of Paul ( James does so as well) in Galatians addresses the continuing subject of Judaizing going on.

Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Ga 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
And of course Hebrews tells us of the weakness of the Levitical priesthood and it's works of service. They could never cause freedom (unprofitableness) from sin, rather only brought to remembrance their sin yearly. Of course this would be (an example) speaking of keeping the day of Atonement.....
Excellent post....

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Paul argues that earthly worldly order of the Levitical priesthood is weak, and unprofitable. He is not addressing paganism, but Judaizing.
Here he is speaking Israel, which gave the Levites all the tenth.
Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

The Sons of Aaron, and the Levites were no more god by nature, than pagan priests.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Amen

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Should Police, Fire Departments, Nursing Homes and Hospitals send everyone home on Saturdays? or what?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Question: do you regard one day different than the rest? If so what day would that be?

Hello Sheep dog,

Nice to meet you. Please forgive my slow replies as I am not as active here lately. The point of my post # 201 is that using Romans 14 to say that God does not require you to OBEY the 4th commandment is a mute argument because this is NOT what Romans 14 is talking about. There is no mention of God's 4th commandment in the whole chapter whatsoever and the Sabbath versus another day was never an issue at the time the book of Romans was written or the 4th Commandment Sabbath versus any other day.

Romans 14 as highlighted above is talking about;

1. Not juding those who are weak in the faith in relation to FOOD connected to days or days dedicated to the Lord and that is all it is talking about.

2. Food connected to days in usually in relation to the annual festivals or fasting connected to weekly or Holy days unto the Lord (Lev 16:29. Num 29:7; Issaiah 58:5; Luke 18:11-12).

3. There is no mention of the Sabbath or God's 4th commandment in this chapter or the entire book of Romans.

4. Romans 14 is not talking about ABOLISHING ANY DAYS but only talking about judging others in relation to food or fasting connected to days dedicated to the LORD and food offered to idols.

5. The Chapter is consistant with all the other writing of Paul in relation to the jewish annual holy days fulfilled in Christ (eg, Colossains 2; Ephesians 2; Galatains 4:10; Hebrews 9:9-15; 10:1-17).

6. Paul's topics is summarised in v17; For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

It is very clear from reading the scriptures that this whole Chapter has nothing whatsoever at all to do with the 4th commandment which is to keep Holy the 7th day Sabbath that is a part of the 10 commandments

God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 commandments if we break it we commit SIN because SIN is the transgression of God's LAW (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; James 2:11).

God's 10 commandments are not Shadow laws. They are the KNOWLEDGE of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS.

IF you have no KNLOWLEDGE of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS you do have no need of a Savior because you do not know your standing with God. IF you have no need of a Savior you have NO SALVATION.

If you have NO SALVATION you are lost because you are still IN your SINS and do not KNOW him who calls you.

Rom 2:12
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

We BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD through FAITH not because we have to do this for salvation but because we LOVE him who first LOVED US.

...................

In times of ignorance God winks at but now calls all men every where to REPENT for the KINGDOM of HEAVEN is at HAND (Acts 17:30-31)

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.

Hope this help..

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Smile, I already posted historical sources that showed the early church worshiped on other days besides Saturday.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Smile, I already posted historical sources that showed the early church worshiped on other days besides Saturday.

Yes of course God's people met together for many different reasons but only God's has only commanded us to keep the 7th Day as a Holy day. Here you go friend, these might help provide you with a better perspective of why things are the way they are. Here you go some historical sources....

There has already been too many scripture references provided already, let's look at just a few Historical references....

The original churches generally held the Sabbath. "The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day...It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius (A.D. 297-373, Bishop of Alexandria) likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. Epiphanius says the same." (Antiquities of the Christian Church, Vol. II, Bk.xx, Ch.3, Sec 1, 66. 1136,1137)

The forsaking of the Sabbath, and the enforcing of Sunday observance was instigated by a Roman Emperor who was a devoted "Sun-Worshipper". Here are bits and pieces from a letter he wrote in about A.D. 365 to the "heretics" (non-Catholics / true Christians), -"Forasmuch, then, as it is no longer possible to bear with your pernicious errors, we give warning by this present statute (Law) that none of you henceforth presume to assemble yourselves together. We have directed, accordingly, that you be deprived of all the houses in which you are accustomed to hold your assemblies....Take the far better course of entering the Catholic church."(Eusebius' -Life of Constantine, Book III) Commentary: Notice that even after more than 300 years Christians were still observing the Sabbath day.

In 781 the famous China Monument was inscribed in marble to tell of the growth of Christianity in China at that time. The inscription of 763 words was unearthed near the city of Changan in 1625 and now stands in the "Forest of Tablets" at Changan. The extract from the tablet states as follows. "On the SEVENTH-DAY we offer sacrifices, (possibly offerings of praise and thanksgiving) after having purified our hearts, and received absolution for our sins. This religion (Christianity), so perfect and so excellent, is difficult to name, but it enlightens darkness by its brilliant precepts.(Laws)" Christianity in China, Vol.I, Ch.2, pgs 48-49, by M. 1'Abbe Hue)

Sabbath observance was widespread and appears to have been opposed by the Roman Catholic Church. It was kept holy by Christians in Egypt in the third century, as the Oxyrhynchus Papyrus shows.(c. 200-250 A.D.)"Except ye make the Sabbath a real Sabbath [Greek, "sabbatize the Sabbath"], ye shall not see the Father." (The Oxyrhynchus Papyri, Pt. 1, pg 3, Logion 2, verses 4-11, London: Offices of the Egyptian Exploration Fund, 1898)

Early Church leader, Origen also enjoined the keeping of the Sabbath. "After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice (the crucifixion) is put the second festival of the Sabbath, and it is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to KEEP ALSO THIS FESTIVAL of the SABBATH. There remaineth therefore a sabbatismus, that is a keeping of the Sabbath, to the people of God."[Hebrews 4:9] (Homily on Numbers 23, para. 4, in Migne, Patrologia Groeca, Vol. 12, cols. 749,750)

The early church taught the Sabbath was for God's work of providence and meditation on His way of life."Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence; it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands." (Constitution of the Holy Apostles, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 7, pg 413, 3rd century) This was over 300 years after the resurrection of Christ.

Although the abolishment of the Sabbath and establishment of Sunday worship came through the Roman Catholic church, they freely admit there is absolutely no Biblical authority for it. Notice these statements by Roman Catholic Cardinal Gibbon, -"Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify SUNDAY, and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this LAW among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of SUNDAY. The SCRIPTURES enforce the religious observance of SATURDAY (Seventh-day), a day we never sanctify." (Faith of our Fathers, by Cardinal Gibbon)

According to the noted historian, H.G. Wells, Christian Sunday worship was borrowed from Pagan Sun-Worship. "During this indefinite time a considerable amount of a sort of theocrasia (intimate union) seems to have gone on between the Christian cult and the almost equally popular and widely diffused Mithraic cult, and the cult Serapis-Isis-Horus. From the former it would seem the Christians ADOPTED SUNDAY as their chief DAY OF WORSHIP instead of the Jewish SABBATH." (The Outline of History 1, pg 455)

In an effort to stamp out Sabbath keeping the Roman church commanded Christians to fast on that day. (Go without food or water, 24 hours). From canon 26 of the Council of Elvira (c.305 A.D.) It appears that the Christian church in Spain were Sabbath keepers. Rome had introduced the practice of fasting on the Sabbath to counteract Sabbath keeping. Pope Sylvester (314-335) was the first to ORDER the churches to fast on the Sabbath, and Pope Innocent (402-417) made it a binding law in the churches that obeyed him.

The Sabbath keeping Churches in Persia underwent forty years of persecution under Shapur II from 335 to 375 specifically because they were Sabbath keepers. "They despise our SUN-GOD. Did not Zoroaster (Prophet of Mithra, the sun-god), the sainted founder of our divine beliefs, institute Sunday one thousand years ago in honour of the sun and supplant the Sabbath of the Old Testament. Yet these Christians have divine services on Saturday." (The Syriac Church and Fathers, by O'Leary, pg 83-84)

The Sabbath was kept in the early Eastern Churches, and some Churches of the West. "For in the Church ofMillaine (Milan), it seemes that Saturday was held in a farre esteeme... Not that the Easterne Churches, or any of the rest which observed that day were inclined to Judaism; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Jesus Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." (History of the Sabbath, Dr. Peter Heylyn, London 1636, Part 2, para. 5, pgs 73-74)

Sabbath keeping was the original position of the Church. "Sabbath-keeping, the original position of the Church, had spread west into Europe and from Palestine it spread East into India (Early Spread of Christianity, Mingana, Vol. 10, pg 460) and then into China. The introduction of Sabbath-keeping to India caused a controversy in Buddhism in 220 A.D. According to Lloyd (The Creed of Half Japan, pg 23), the Kushan Dynasty of North India called a council of Buddhist priests at Vaisalia to bring uniformity among the Buddhist monks on the observance of their weekly Sabbath." Even many Buddhist monks embraced the Sabbath after receiving and studying the Holy Bible.

Notice this puzzling quote from the historian Socrates. "For although almost all Churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and Rome (Catholics), on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." (Ecclesiastical History, Socrates, Bk 5, Ch.22, pg 289) This ancient tradition was the keeping of Sunday as their day of worship. Sunday worship existed long before the birth of Jesus Christ.

The Roman Catholic Church pronounced all Christians keeping the Sabbath as being condemned and cut off from Christ. Council of Laodicea (c.366), Canon 29, -"Christians must not Judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day honouring rather the Lord's day (reference to Sunday) by resting, if possible, as Christians. However if any shall be found Judaizing, let them be ANATHEMA for Christ." (Mansi, II, pgs 569-570, also Hefele Councils, Vol. 2, b. 6) Notice the definition of "anathema" according to the World Book Dictionary, -"A person or thing that is utterly detested or condemned." And, -"A solemn curse by church authorities excommunicating some person from the church." Also, -"The act of denouncing and condemning some person or thing as evil."

There are too many more historical references these are but a few...

My dear friend, scripture and historical Christianity is all I have been promoting.

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Hope this helps.

 

[listed]

Yes of course God's people met together for many different reasons but only God's has only commanded us to keep the 7th Day as a Holy day. Here you go friend, these might help provide you with a better perspective of why things are the way they are. Here you go some historical sources....

There has already been too many scripture references provided already, let's look at just a few Historical references....

The original churches generally held the Sabbath. "The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day...It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius (A.D. 297-373, Bishop of Alexandria) likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. Epiphanius says the same." (Antiquities of the Christian Church, Vol. II, Bk.xx, Ch.3, Sec 1, 66. 1136,1137)

Isn't this a quote taken from a general google search? Isn't Alexandria know for heresy?

Now of course this is indeed true about the early church. Why would I agree about that? The early church was largely made up of Jews, who were sabbath keepers by law. What happened to those Jews who followed Jesus? We read in Acts they were severely persecuted even to death. Most likely even Saul known widely as Paul was guilty of this. These followers of Jesus were pushed out of the synagogue by the Jews. They commonly worshiped after the sabbath maybe even in the synagogue after the Jews left. This was soon remedied by the Jews. Most likely why Paul taught outside of the synagogue in a believer's house. Read about it in Acts. There have been many posts quoting noted church fathers showing worship being conducted on what we call Sunday long before 325. So I guess your quotes are a fair exchange. What I need to know is why the quotes from the church fathers is being totally rejected.

 

[listed]

Indeed. It is quite obvious IMO. It was a universal problem since the gospel was just newly being preached beyond Jews. The perversion of the gospel was coming from Jew's, not Gentiles.
Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Again, indeed it is pretty obvious in reading the entire new testament.
The warnings were concerning the perversion of the Gospel which was preached to the Jew's first, and those Jews which chose to pervert it, and pretend to be believers as well.
Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

The continued arguments of Paul ( James does so as well) in Galatians addresses the continuing subject of Judaizing going on.

Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Ga 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
And of course Hebrews tells us of the weakness of the Levitical priesthood and it's works of service. They could never cause freedom (unprofitableness) from sin, rather only brought to remembrance their sin yearly. Of course this would be (an example) speaking of keeping the day of Atonement.....
Excellent post....

They're still with us except now it is mostly from a gentile segment trying to be Jews without circumcision.