Muslims claim Jerusalem as theirs.

[Heber Book List]

The people who we now call Palestinians populated that land continuously, they were the indigenous subjects of various rulers.

From Wiki
The adoption of Christianity by the Roman Empire in the 4th century led to a Christian majority which lasted until the 7th century when the area was conquered by the Arab Empire. It gradually became predominantly Moslem until the Crusades between 1096 and 1291, when it was the focal point of conflict between Christianity and Islam. From the 13th Century it was mainly Moslem with Arabic as the dominant language and was first part of the Syrian province of the Mamluk Sultanate and then part of the Ottoman Empire until the British conquest in 1917.

So it needs to be returned to non-Arab nations*, according to the 'Palestinian' claims that land taken over by war should be returned to the original people. That defeats your point in one go, using the clear 'Palestinian' line of thought that you promote.

I note that you cannot answer the questions to prove that 'Palestinians' existed in control of the land in the past two centuries.

* ie Israel from whom the Romans stole the land.

PS. Wikipedia is not an authority on anything!

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

So it needs to be returned to non-Arab nations*, according to the 'Palestinian' claims that land taken over by war should be returned to the original people. That defeats your point in one go, using the clear 'Palestinian' line of thought that you promote.

Not at all, It needs to be returned to the indigenous people who have continued to live there. they are largely the same people, whoever ruled them. Their religions changed, from time to time, Christian Judaism and Moslem, at the present time most are now Moslem, but they are the same people.

I note that you cannot answer the questions to prove that 'Palestinians' existed in control of the land in the past two centuries.

they are the people who individually owned and lived in the land. who ever was the ruler at the time.
In the same way a vast majority of the inhabitants of England were the same people before and after the Norman conquest.

* ie Israel from whom the Romans stole the land.

The Romans already Owned and ruled the land when they dispersed the revolting Jews. the remaining loyal inhabitants still lived there afterwards, including many romanised Jews, as Roman citizens.

PS. Wikipedia is not an authority on anything!

Who ever said it was? however the portion I quoted is not in dispute.

 

[Heber Book List]

Not at all, It needs to be returned to the indigenous people who have continued to live there. they are largely the same people, whoever ruled them. Their religions changed, from time to time, Christian Judaism and Moslem, at the present time most are now Moslem, but they are the same people.

they are the people who individually owned and lived in the land. who ever was the ruler at the time.
In the same way a vast majority of the inhabitants of England were the same people before and after the Norman conquest.

The Romans already Owned and ruled the land when they dispersed the revolting Jews. the remaining loyal inhabitants still lived there afterwards, including many romanised Jews, as Roman citizens.


Who ever said it was? however the portion I quoted is not in dispute.

Interesting revision of the history books - make it all so vague that definitive answers are avoided. Reading up on real history may be an advantage in this discussion.

PS - anyone who quotes Wikipedia cannot expect serious discussion. Wikipedia is a definite 'no,no' where facts are important.

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

Interesting revision of the history books - make it all so vague that definitive answers are avoided. Reading up on real history may be an advantage in this discussion.

PS - anyone who quotes Wikipedia cannot expect serious discussion. Wikipedia is a definite 'no,no' where facts are important.

The history of the land, now known as Israel, is well known and well illustrated by the potted version that I quoted from the passage in Wiki. The full history is far to long to include in a thread like this.
I have said nothing contraversial, and avoided taking sides.
I have lived through the Israel saga from 1935 onward, and am well aware of the history of that period.
Including the time when Ben gurian was a terrorist leader fighting the British palastinian police. And had friends who were in that force.

 

[pat34lee]

This is the US Embassy in Lima Peru.

I guess I should have double checked. The picture I posted came
from a cycling site where they post photos from their journeys.

The point is, they don't need 500 rooms and a staff of hundreds.

 

[pat34lee]

The people who we now call Palestinians populated that land continuously, they were the indigenous subjects of various rulers.

They never owned the land. You can live in an apartment
or motel for generations and you will never own it.

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

They never owned the land. You can live in an apartment
or motel for generations and you will never own it.

Please explain who owns a land.
Is it the people who lived therethere continously as citizens or a people who control it by force.

When Germany conquered France did France and its people become German...of course not.
The uk has been ruled by Norse, Danish, Saxon, Norman, Dutch, And for many years now a German family, in all that time the majority has remaind the same british people. They have not rented it off anyone.
Apart from genocide a land always belongs to the indiginous inhabitants.

 

[mmksparbud]

Please explain who owns a land.
Is it the people who lived therethere continously as citizens or a people who control it by force.

When Germany conquered France did France and its people become German...of course not.
The uk has been ruled by Norse, Danish, Saxon, Norman, Dutch, And for many years now a German family, in all that time the majority has remaind the same british people. They have not rented it off anyone.
Apart from genocide a land always belongs to the indiginous inhabitants.

Indigenous peoples is who the land belongs to? You would think so, America is land taken from the Indians. You gonna move out?
Now far back do you want to go for indigenous in Israel? Before anyone else came, the indigenous people were the Canaanites. God said to drive them out and take over the land and it would be theirs forever. The forever part was not dependent on obedience. The may have been conquered at times, and ruled by others by the Babylonians and Romans and English---it is still their property given to them by God but if you think the Canaanites should get it back you may have to argue with God about that. He gives it to whomsoever He wants and He wanted Israel for the Jews. They became the indigenous people when God gave it to them.

 

[Heber Book List]

Please explain who owns a land.
Is it the people who lived therethere continously as citizens or a people who control it by force.

When Germany conquered France did France and its people become German...of course not.
The uk has been ruled by Norse, Danish, Saxon, Norman, Dutch, And for many years now a German family, in all that time the majority has remaind the same british people. They have not rented it off anyone.
Apart from genocide a land always belongs to the indiginous inhabitants.

Even the Koran (circa 600 CE), states that the land was given to the Hebrews by G_d. So why are you arguing against Islam's own holy book by insisting that the land is theirs, when they clearly say the opposite? This discussion is not making sense - you can't have things both ways round!!

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

Indigenous peoples is who the land belongs to? You would think so, America is land taken from the Indians. You gonna move out?
Now far back do you want to go for indigenous in Israel? Before anyone else came, the indigenous people were the Canaanites. God said to drive them out and take over the land and it would be theirs forever. The forever part was not dependent on obedience. The may have been conquered at times, and ruled by others by the Babylonians and Romans and English---it is still their property given to them by God but if you think the Canaanites should get it back you may have to argue with God about that. He gives it to whomsoever He wants and He wanted Israel for the Jews. They became the indigenous people when God gave it to them.

It is hard to argue with someone who believes that God gave them something for all time.
I do not believe that is true.
I do not believe God involves himself in our conquests.
Holy wars are usually the most base and blood thirsty of all. A God of Love would want no part in such things.

In the case of Israel why would God allow them to be conquered so many times, and their temple to him be destroyed twice, and their entire people to be scattered and dispersed. and the Arc of God lost for ever.
That does not sound like a God that believes they should own that land forever.
These are all Biblical events.

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

Even the Koran (circa 600 CE), states that the land was given to the Hebrews by G_d. So why are you arguing against Islam's own holy book by insisting that the land is theirs, when they clearly say the opposite? This discussion is not making sense - you can't have things both ways round!!

See my post #50
I have no reason to believe the Koran about anything.
Religion has no legal part to play in the ownership of a land.

 

[mmksparbud]

It is hard to argue with someone who believes that God gave them something for all time.
I do not believe that is true.
I do not believe God involves himself in our conquests.
Holy wars are usually the most base and blood thirsty of all. A God of Love would want no part in such things.

In the case of Israel why would God allow them to be conquered so many times, and their temple to him be destroyed twice, and their entire people to be scattered and dispersed. and the Arc of God lost for ever.
That does not sound like a God that believes they should own that land forever.
These are all Biblical events.

Sorry---I thought you believed in the bible.
God allowed them to be conquered and so forth because they often turned to the worship of idols. It's theirs according to the bible which I guess you do not believe in---what is Anglican?

 

[Ygrene Imref]

I am of course only speculating ( not being a muslim) but I believe prior to the Quran that Mohammad was influenced by the hearing of the Torah ( he was illiterate ) and also was influenced by various sects of christians . I believe it is natural ( verses supernatural ) being in the flesh , one still has a veil before the eyes and is unable to see eternal things . It becomes about me and not about God. ( Paul mentioned that the veil was still over the eyes of many the Jews of his day during the reading of the Torah. ) So for a Muslim , Jerusalem belongs to THEM. Many Jews and Christians still hold to their understanding of the old covenant ( which excludes the gentiles ..though it actually predicts those that were not a people , will be called the sons of God . ) Many still hold to the old Jerusalem rather than the New Jerusalem which is above ( whose maker and builder is God . ) How tragic to fight over a temporal piece of clay based on an old covenant and to forsake a new covenant which is eternal. The old Jerusalem was built through bloodshed . The new Jerusalem was built through shed blood. Who shall tell the gospel to the Jews ? The good news ? How shall they be taught to love their enemies ?

Spot. On.

Israel is a people, not land.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Brother ...do you sincerely believe the anti-christ spirit which is subtle will deceive anyone dressed as a muslim ? No , the anti-christ is another Jesus . An angel of light . A Jesus with out His Words or worse ...a jesus without His Spirit. ) Learn of me for I am lowly and meek ...I would watch out for a Jesus which grasp for things of this world ( demonstrating that he is not eternal and that he is temporal.) I would watch out for a Jesus that is proud and seeks His own . He was led as a lamb to the slaughter . I would watch out for a jesus that demanded his rights ...That is the anti-jesus .

This is why when people say Obama, Bush, or Trump, Merkel, Blair, Ahmedinajad, BiBi, Hitler... will be antichrist, they are grossly mistaking. This A.C. to finally come would be so persuasive the entire world will follow it.

Also, Christians will to "shake their heads" to realize the little horn is Antichrist. I guarantee there will a FAKE end of the world scenario, and then a FAKE messiah type who comes and pretends to act as AC. Then when the FAKE AC begins to fall, the real A.C. that "conquers" the FAKE A.C. as a "christ." It is this A.C. people will believe is god.

This is actually spelled put in Daniel 11-12, and other apocryphal books.

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

Sorry---I thought you believed in the bible.
God allowed them to be conquered and so forth because they often turned to the worship of idols. It's theirs according to the bible which I guess you do not believe in---what is Anglican?

The Anglican Church is one of the largest world wide Christian denominations.
I have posted a list separately below.
The Bible is not something you take as being with out error or with out need for interpretation and understanding. There is not even a singe Bible, with the same number and selection of books. Some also include the apocrypha.I have a KJV and a NRSV that do so. The Catholics and Anglicans use some of their passages in their tri-annual cycle of readings.
Some of the Bible is taught and read as metaphor, some as historical, some as law and some as prophecy. And some as myth from prehistory. All scripture is profitable and instructional.
However it should be read with understanding and an open mind, and with regard to the nature of the particular passage.
The historical portions of the old Testament suggest that the Isralites believed that God led them to, and gave them the promised land when they left Egypt. The Bible certainly recorded this as their belief. I am not convinced they were correct in this belief.

 

[Heber Book List]

It is hard to argue with someone who believes that God gave them something for all time.
I do not believe that is true.
I do not believe God involves himself in our conquests.
Holy wars are usually the most base and blood thirsty of all. A God of Love would want no part in such things.

In the case of Israel why would God allow them to be conquered so many times, and their temple to him be destroyed twice, and their entire people to be scattered and dispersed. and the Arc of God lost for ever.
That does not sound like a God that believes they should own that land forever.
These are all Biblical events.

3 out of 3 of the 3 Abramatic faiths agree that G_d gave the land to the Hebrews. If you are a Christian, your own Bible will tell you the same. It will also answer your questions, above. Have you read it through in order to understand it?

If you read the SOP for these fora, you will see that Messianics believe the whole Bible to be G_d's true word for us today, from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22, without exception. If you do not hold to that view you may consider that you are in a minority on this forum.

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

This is a list of Anglican churches by province it is also available by Country
From Member Churches
Member Churches
The Anglican Episcopal family consists of an estimated 85 million Christians who are members of 45 different Churches. These make up 39 Member Churches (also called Provinces) and six other national or local churches known as Extra Provincials, spread across the globe.

These are listed below arranged by Member Church or by country.

• Member Churches by Province

• Member Churches by Country

• The Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia
• The Anglican Church of Australia
• The Church of Bangladesh
• Igreja Episcopal Anglicana do Brasil
• The Anglican Church of Burundi
• The Anglican Church of Canada
• The Church of the Province of Central Africa
• Iglesia Anglicana de la Region Central de America
• Province de L'Eglise Anglicane Du Congo
• The Church of England
• Hong Kong Sheng Kung Hui
• The Church of the Province of the Indian Ocean
• The Church of Ireland
• The Nippon Sei Ko Kai (The Anglican Communion in Japan)
• The Episcopal Church in Jerusalem & The Middle East
• The Anglican Church of Kenya
• The Anglican Church of Korea
• The Anglican Church of Melanesia
• La Iglesia Anglicana de Mexico
• The Church of the Province of Myanmar (Burma)
• The Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion)
• The Church of North India (United)
• The Church of Pakistan (United)
• The Anglican Church of Papua New Guinea
• The Episcopal Church in the Philippines
• Province de L'Eglise Anglicane au Rwanda
• The Scottish Episcopal Church
• Church of the Province of South East Asia
• The Church of South India (United)
• The Anglican Church of Southern Africa
• The Anglican Church of South America
• Province of the Episcopal Church of South Sudan
• Province of the Episcopal Church of Sudan
• The Anglican Church of Tanzania
• The Church of the Province of Uganda
• The Episcopal Church
• The Church in Wales
• The Church of the Province of West Africa
• The Church in the Province of the West Indies
• The Church of Ceylon (E-P to the Archbishop of Canterbury)
• Iglesia Episcopal de Cuba
• Bermuda (Extra-Provincial to Canterbury)
• The Lusitanian Church (E-P to the Archbishop of Canterbury)
• The Reformed Episcopal Church of Spain (E-P to the Archbishop of Canterbury)
• Falkland Islands (Extra-Provincial to Canterbury)

 

[Heber Book List]

This is a list of Anglican churches by province it is also available by Country
From Member Churches
Member Churches
The Anglican Episcopal family consists of an estimated 85 million Christians who are members of 45 different Churches. These make up 39 Member Churches (also called Provinces) and six other national or local churches known as Extra Provincials, spread across the globe.

These are listed below arranged by Member Church or by country.

• Member Churches by Province

• Member Churches by Country

• The Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia
• The Anglican Church of Australia
• The Church of Bangladesh
• Igreja Episcopal Anglicana do Brasil
• The Anglican Church of Burundi
• The Anglican Church of Canada
• The Church of the Province of Central Africa
• Iglesia Anglicana de la Region Central de America
• Province de L'Eglise Anglicane Du Congo
• The Church of England
• Hong Kong Sheng Kung Hui
• The Church of the Province of the Indian Ocean
• The Church of Ireland
• The Nippon Sei Ko Kai (The Anglican Communion in Japan)
• The Episcopal Church in Jerusalem & The Middle East
• The Anglican Church of Kenya
• The Anglican Church of Korea
• The Anglican Church of Melanesia
• La Iglesia Anglicana de Mexico
• The Church of the Province of Myanmar (Burma)
• The Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion)
• The Church of North India (United)
• The Church of Pakistan (United)
• The Anglican Church of Papua New Guinea
• The Episcopal Church in the Philippines
• Province de L'Eglise Anglicane au Rwanda
• The Scottish Episcopal Church
• Church of the Province of South East Asia
• The Church of South India (United)
• The Anglican Church of Southern Africa
• The Anglican Church of South America
• Province of the Episcopal Church of South Sudan
• Province of the Episcopal Church of Sudan
• The Anglican Church of Tanzania
• The Church of the Province of Uganda
• The Episcopal Church
• The Church in Wales
• The Church of the Province of West Africa
• The Church in the Province of the West Indies
• The Church of Ceylon (E-P to the Archbishop of Canterbury)
• Iglesia Episcopal de Cuba
• Bermuda (Extra-Provincial to Canterbury)
• The Lusitanian Church (E-P to the Archbishop of Canterbury)
• The Reformed Episcopal Church of Spain (E-P to the Archbishop of Canterbury)
• Falkland Islands (Extra-Provincial to Canterbury)

and...?

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

3 out of 3 of the 3 Abramatic faiths agree that G_d gave the land to the Hebrews. If you are a Christian, your own Bible will tell you the same. It will also answer your questions, above. Have you read it through in order to understand it?

If you read the SOP for these fora, you will see that Messianics believe the whole Bible to be G_d's true word for us today, from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22, without exception. If you do not hold to that view you may consider that you are in a minority on this forum.

I acknowledge that you believe that to be so..... nevertheless you probably acknowledge that other Christian denominations have other views.
Which Bible do the Messianics use? do you accept the full KJV and NRSV with apocrypha?
or do you have your own approved Bible?
Do you never use the Apocrypha for church readings?

 

[Heber Book List]

I acknowledge that you believe that to be so..... nevertheless you probably acknowledge that other Christian denominations have other views.
Which Bible do the Messianics use? do you accept the full KJV and NRSV with apocrypha?
or do you have your own approved Bible?
Do you never use the Apocrypha for church readings?

We are Messianics, not Christians in the normal sense of that word, as you might think of it.

There is no 'required' version(s) of Scripture. Many use the JPS 1917 (or 1985) for the Tanach. The Christian Testament has a variety of possible versions that are available.

Scripture, however, is taken very seriously, as written, and we work on any areas that are less clear to find a correct understanding, using both the Tanach and the Christian Testament, as we grow in our faith. The Apocrypha is not a closed book to us by any means.

Places of worship that Messianic's attend make their own decisions as to readings etc., in their services. There is no Messianic 'Lectionary' if that is what you are asking, but many do follow, and take part in, the Moedim.

I hope that helps