Muslims claim Jerusalem as theirs.

TerryWoodenpic

Well-Known Member
Nov 23, 2017
440
208
89
Oldham
✟39,925.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Widowed
We are Messianics, not Christians in the normal sense of that word, as you might think of it.

There is no 'required' version(s) of Scripture. Many use the JPS 1917 (or 1985) for the Tanach. The Christian Testament has a variety of possible versions that are available.

Scripture, however, is taken very seriously, as written, and we work on any areas that are less clear to find a correct understanding, using both the Tanach and the Christian Testament, as we grow in our faith. The Apocrypha is not a closed book to us by any means.

Places of worship that Messianic's attend make their own decisions as to readings etc., in their services. There is no Messianic 'Lectionary' if that is what you are asking, but many do follow, and take part in, the Moedim.

I hope that helps

Yes thank you, that is very useful....
Do you take the view, as I have been told by a number Jewish Rabbis on other forums, that the scriptures need re-interpreting by each generation to keep their understanding of it relevant to new circumstances. And that for every two Rabbis their are three or more views.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
The Anglican Church is one of the largest world wide Christian denominations.
I have posted a list separately below.
The Bible is not something you take as being with out error or with out need for interpretation and understanding. There is not even a singe Bible, with the same number and selection of books. Some also include the apocrypha.I have a KJV and a NRSV that do so. The Catholics and Anglicans use some of their passages in their tri-annual cycle of readings.
Some of the Bible is taught and read as metaphor, some as historical, some as law and some as prophecy. And some as myth from prehistory. All scripture is profitable and instructional.
However it should be read with understanding and an open mind, and with regard to the nature of the particular passage.
The historical portions of the old Testament suggest that the Isralites believed that God led them to, and gave them the promised land when they left Egypt. The Bible certainly recorded this as their belief. I am not convinced they were correct in this belief.

You are entitled to your believes -- as am I. The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the OT is the very same as during the time of Christ as it is today. It is that same OT that Jesus and His disciples used and by which all first Christians were converted as the NT had not been written yet. I'll take the bible over any new ideas that are coming along, I don't care how many people may believe those ideas. Unless the passages are obviously prophetic, allegorical, parable, I take it as literal. There is no indication that Jesus felt otherwise. Thank you for your input.
 
Upvote 0

Heber Book List

Theologian [Applied Theology]
Jul 1, 2015
2,609
851
Whippingham, Isle of Wight, England
✟132,416.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Yes thank you, that is very useful....
Do you take the view, as I have been told by a number Jewish Rabbis on other forums, that the scriptures need re-interpreting by each generation to keep their understanding of it relevant to new circumstances. And that for every two Rabbis their are three or more views.

I would have little to do if we did not need to keep re-assessing Scripture in the light of new understandings of the texts, and of archeological finds, that often feed into new understandings of texts, as in the Qumran find, and the find just a few months ago of a clay tablet that proves there was a Governor of Jerusalem - dating yet to be confirmed!

Re differing views - if you ask in a Christian congregation you will probably get as many views as there are people, or none at all :) :) Does not Paul say that we will disagree with each other - so that the one who is correct may be found? But, yes, there are differences of view and opinion, as you might expect. The early Church fathers certainly had differing views - had they not, we would not have Protestantism?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
A group with no actual authority.
They did the wrong thing.
Did they? According to Torah, ONLY levites and priests could go into much of the Temple, and only the HIGH Priest on the day of Atonement into the Holy of Holys. Since they do not know precicely where those areas were/are, they are just saying to normal Jews from tribe Judah or Benjamin they cannot go there.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
The object of Scripture is not to interpret it to our modern definitions of the words, but to find the true meaning of the Hebrew words as they were written, in their time and culture. It is to find what the authors meant, not what we think that matters.
 
Upvote 0

Heber Book List

Theologian [Applied Theology]
Jul 1, 2015
2,609
851
Whippingham, Isle of Wight, England
✟132,416.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
The object of Scripture is not to interpret it to our modern definitions of the words, but to find the true meaning of the Hebrew words as they were written, in their time and culture. It is to find what the authors meant, not what we think that matters.


Not just Hebrew.
 
Upvote 0

TerryWoodenpic

Well-Known Member
Nov 23, 2017
440
208
89
Oldham
✟39,925.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Widowed
I would have little to do if we did not need to keep re-assessing Scripture in the light of new understandings of the texts, and of archeological finds, that often feed into new understandings of texts, as in the Qumran find, and the find just a few months ago of a clay tablet that proves there was a Governor of Jerusalem - dating yet to be confirmed!

Re differing views - if you ask in a Christian congregation you will probably get as many views as there are people, or none at all :) :) Does not Paul say that we will disagree with each other - so that the one who is correct may be found? But, yes, there are differences of view and opinion, as you might expect. The early Church fathers certainly had differing views - had they not, we would not have Protestantism?

I can not but agree. however there seems to be a trend for some Christian denominations in America to have profoundly fixed Ideas about all things Biblical and all things Christian, to the exclusion of Science or modern study and discoveries.

On a totally different Tack
have you studied the Didache? which can be thought of as a "hand book" for the training of new Gentile recruits in to the ways of the new Judeo- Christian communities in the mid 1st century.

Aaron Milavec in his book "The Didache Text Translation, analysis and commentary" gives a particularly interesting insight into those early times. before such doctrines as the divinity of Jesus, the trinity, or even the virgin birth, had been incorporated into what was still a close relative of Judaism. They were looking forward to the, soon to be, second coming and end of times.
Theirs was an almost entirely Eschatalogical outlook.
 
Upvote 0

Heber Book List

Theologian [Applied Theology]
Jul 1, 2015
2,609
851
Whippingham, Isle of Wight, England
✟132,416.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
I can not but agree. however there seems to be a trend for some Christian denominations in America to have profoundly fixed Ideas about all things Biblical and all things Christian, to the exclusion of Science or modern study and discoveries.

On a totally different Tack
have you studied the Didache? which can be thought of as a "hand book" for the training of new Gentile recruits in to the ways of the new Judeo- Christian communities in the mid 1st century.

Aaron Milavec in his book "The Didache Text Translation, analysis and commentary" gives a particularly interesting insight into those early times. before such doctrines as the divinity of Jesus, the trinity, or even the virgin birth, had been incorporated into what was still a close relative of Judaism. They were looking forward to the, soon to be, second coming and end of times.
Theirs was an almost entirely Eschatalogical outlook.

I do have a copy of, and I have read, the Didache.

We are in danger of being off topic now. This thread is about Muslim claims on Jerusalem and we have strayed a long way from that!

Back to the OP subject...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Please explain who owns a land.
Is it the people who lived therethere continously as citizens or a people who control it by force.

When Germany conquered France did France and its people become German...of course not.
The uk has been ruled by Norse, Danish, Saxon, Norman, Dutch, And for many years now a German family, in all that time the majority has remaind the same british people. They have not rented it off anyone.
Apart from genocide a land always belongs to the indiginous inhabitants.

No, a land is owned by those who hold title to it.
In the case of Israel, that was the Ottoman empire
until WW1, when it was taken by the League of Nations..
History of Israel and Palestine in VERY Easy To Understand Maps
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Did they? According to Torah, ONLY levites and priests could go into much of the Temple, and only the HIGH Priest on the day of Atonement into the Holy of Holys. Since they do not know precicely where those areas were/are, they are just saying to normal Jews from tribe Judah or Benjamin they cannot go there.

Since there is no temple at the moment, there is
no 'inside' the temple and no Holy of Holies. If
I were going to ban anyone from the Mount, it
would be the Muslims.
 
Upvote 0

CherubRam

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2012
6,777
781
✟103,730.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oneness
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0

NeedyFollower

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,024
437
63
N Carolina
✟71,145.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Celibate
There is a temple in heaven. There will be another
physical temple on earth. Parables about the body
do not preclude the facts.
Yes , I agree . It is interesting that the Jewish teachers in Christ day ( while He walked among us in the flesh ) had access to the same writings which we used today and are verified by the Dead Sea Scrolls. "Search the scriptures for in them you think you have life and they testify of me. " I believe there was and is a new and better covenant. If not, Christ ( being from the tribe of Judah ) can in no wise be our high priest. Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood. So , I cannot be part of that either.
Is Christ the cornerstone and believers living stones ? Are we not the temple of God who's maker and builder is God ? God does not dwell in a temple made with hands. This was hidden beforehand but was made manifest in Christ. Shall we tell Israel according to the flesh ? Do we stand also with our brother Stephen who was stoned for making this statement ? For what reason Christ ? So that we shall continue with the Old understanding and a physical temple ? Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it again ? Did Shall we encourage Israel to " take " Jerusalem , rebuild the temple and offer again the blood of animals and forsake the Blood of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world ? Shall we say " No thank you " to what God has wrought ? In my opinion that would be an abomination and it would make desolate . There IS a physical temple on earth . And you are part of it ( by God grace through faith in Christ Jesus...living stones jointly fit together . ( Though we are not doing that very well . )
 
Upvote 0

NeedyFollower

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,024
437
63
N Carolina
✟71,145.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Celibate
The real problem is that 'east Jerusalem' will include the Temple Mount, the Western Wall and the Old City - that is a large chunk of the Jewish and Christian areas. The most holy places where Yeshua walked will come under the control of Islam and our faiths will destroyed - probably assisted by UNESCO, who have already written off these areas as having nothing to do with Judaism or Christianity, either now, or in the past.

My Brother ..Our faith destroyed ? How so ? Was our faith destroyed in 70 AD ? I really have to ask ...Can the blood of Jesus Christ become unshed ? No , our faith is in " It is Finished " And what shall we add to what God has wrought through the obedience of His Son ? Shall we count His blood an unholy thing ? The blood and what ? The Word of our testimony . And our testimony is Christ and Him crucified. ? Behold the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world ? Is Christ the Messiah ? Has He not sat down on the right hand of Power ? Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin ? Faith is destroyed by unbelief not the occupation of a city or the destruction of a building .
Is man ...any man or any army of men able to undo what God has done ? No. He who trust in man is cursed. What is the difference if Israel or Islam deny Christ ? And Yeshua said , " And bring all those who would not that I should rein over them and slay them before me . " We preach Christ and Him crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the greeks , foolishness .
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

NeedyFollower

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,024
437
63
N Carolina
✟71,145.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Celibate
I agree that Palestine is a Arab jihad against Israel.
I am reminded of a couple of things ..One is that God fulfilled His promise to Israel regarding the " promised land. " I am also instructed by God's word that the Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. We may claim ownership to anything we create and not forsake ...otherwise it belongs to someone else and we are only caretakers. You are no doubt familiar with the prodigal son . Remember the oldest son was angry but the father said , " Son , you have ever been with me and ALL that I own has EVER BEEN YOURS . " Are we not children of God through adoption via the blood of His Son , Yeshua ? Is God eternal ? Can God be trusted ? Do we have His Word ? Does God need us to make His word valid ? Did Christ come so there can remain a separation ? Jewish children of God and others ? This seems to go against the WORD of God. Father , I pray that they all be one as you and I are one . We are instructed by God's living word to go make disciples. I am a gentile according to the flesh . So are the muslims . How exactly do we make them disciples according to the commandment of God who is not willing that any should perish ? I wonder if the Jews or the muslims see us as strangers and pilgrims or do they think of us as someone who has no eternal inheritance so we must fight for this kingdom . What did Yeshau say ? My kingdom is not of this world , if it were , then would my disciples fight .
 
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
They never owned the land. You can live in an apartment
or motel for generations and you will never own it.
That's blatantly untrue, Pat. Many were tenants of foreign landowners, but some legally owned their own land.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
Apart from genocide a land always belongs to the indiginous inhabitants.
So no one in the US owns the land except Native Americans? No one in Scotland owns the land except descendants of the Picts? (Gee, I'd love a piece of that)
 
Upvote 0

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Yes , I agree . It is interesting that the Jewish teachers in Christ day ( while He walked among us in the flesh ) had access to the same writings which we used today and are verified by the Dead Sea Scrolls. "Search the scriptures for in them you think you have life and they testify of me. " I believe there was and is a new and better covenant. If not, Christ ( being from the tribe of Judah ) can in no wise be our high priest. Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood. So , I cannot be part of that either.
Is Christ the cornerstone and believers living stones ? Are we not the temple of God who's maker and builder is God ? God does not dwell in a temple made with hands. This was hidden beforehand but was made manifest in Christ. Shall we tell Israel according to the flesh ? Do we stand also with our brother Stephen who was stoned for making this statement ? For what reason Christ ? So that we shall continue with the Old understanding and a physical temple ? Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it again ? Did Shall we encourage Israel to " take " Jerusalem , rebuild the temple and offer again the blood of animals and forsake the Blood of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world ? Shall we say " No thank you " to what God has wrought ? In my opinion that would be an abomination and it would make desolate . There IS a physical temple on earth . And you are part of it ( by God grace through faith in Christ Jesus...living stones jointly fit together . ( Though we are not doing that very well . )

I can tell you that anyone who comes against the Temple
will answer for it to Yahweh. Like it or not, anything that
is dedicated to him belongs to him, especially the Temple.

Remember the example of Korah in Numbers 16.
Yahweh destroyed the rebels AND their families.
But that didn't end it.

36 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
37 “Tell Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, to pick up the censers out of the blaze, for they are holy, and scatter the fire some distance away.
38 The censers of these men who sinned against their own souls, let them be made into hammered plates as a covering for the altar. Because they presented them before the Lord, therefore they are holy; and they shall be a sign to the children of Israel.”
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
That's blatantly untrue, Pat. Many were tenants of foreign landowners, but some legally owned their own land.

Not in any appreciable amount. The government owned
the vast majority, the absentee landowners had most of
the rest. And Jewish organizations bought up that land.
Did the Jews Steal the Palestinians’ Land?

What do you think happened in any country that had
changed hands in the last few thousand years? If you were
lucky, as long as you followed the rules and accepted the
new government, they let you be. Otherwise, you were
either killed or driven out.

Israel let the Muslims stay. They were under no obligation
to give them a separate state within Israel.
 
Upvote 0