Lord's Supper - Wine or Grape Juice?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The lambs were killed on the 14th at the beginning of twilight, which to our calendar would have been the evening of the 13th, roasted and eaten the same day, the 14th, all on the same day as the Crucifixion.

The 15th is the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened bread, a high Sabbath, but many consider Passover as the first day of the whole feast.

Jesus rose from the dead on Saturday night - the beginning of the first day of the week.

That is strange because that is not what the scriptures say. He was crucified BEFORE the seder was eaten, the lambs being killed that day. The Priests did not want to defile themselves so they could eat the Passover. You said previously it was already the days of unleavened when He was killed. the Last Supper was not a Passover seder...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Interestingly, it is the same as mine:

Nissan 13 - Tuesday.
Nissan 13/14 (eve) Tuesday night - Passover Seder meal
Nissan 14 - Wed. Crucifixion/preparation day for High Sabbath feast
Nissan 14/15 (eve) #1 eve
Nissan 15 - Thurs. Feast of Unleavened Bread. #1 day
Nissan 15/16 (eve) #2 eve
Nissan 16 - Fri - #2 day
Nissan 16/17 (eve) start of Sabbath #3 eve
Nissan 17 weekly Sabbath #3 day
Nissan 17/18 1st day of the week begins - Resurrection

No it isn't, you say Yeshua rose after sunset while the link says He rose at 3 PM in the afternoon on Shabbat.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That is strange because that is not what the scriptures say. He was crucified BEFORE the seder was eaten, the lambs being killed that day. The Priests did not want to defile themselves so they could eat the Passover. You said previously it was already the days of unleavened when He was killed. the Last Supper was not a Passover seder...

I already showed you SCRIPTURE that Christ and the disciples ate the Passover meal and it was a seder. I already EXPLAINED what I meant by Passover being the first day of the feast of unleavened bread.

 

[1stcenturylady]

No it isn't, you say Yeshua rose after sunset while the link says He rose at 3 PM in the afternoon on Shabbat.

What link? I never provided a "link." And I never said He rose at 3 PM in the afternoon. You're confused. Perhaps you saw my #3 and thought that read 3 PM. No, it was to indicate 3 days and 3 nights.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That is strange because that is not what the scriptures say. He was crucified BEFORE the seder was eaten, the lambs being killed that day. The Priests did not want to defile themselves so they could eat the Passover. You said previously it was already the days of unleavened when He was killed. the Last Supper was not a Passover seder...

I see you provide no scriptures with your theories.

Luke 22
14 When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him. 15 Then He said to them, “With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”

 

[Yarddog]

A few months ago there was a new thread about whether or not Jesus turned water into fermented wine, or grape juice. The poster claimed grape juice. Many disagreed. That post is now closed as it is old and had no responses for a long time. While I still believe the wine was fermented, it made me wonder about our Lord's Supper. Should that wine be grape juice or fermented wine (Mormons use water). What I found has to do with what kind of wine was used by Jews during Passover and the Seder meal. I was astonished to find it was grape juice, called "new wine." Here is something I just found and thought I would share. Note, this is ONLY at Passover, not for regular meals. There the wine was fermented.


There are two Hebrew used translated as "wine" in our English
Bible. The first word is the Strong's word (3196) and is the Hebrew
word, "yayin". This is alcoholic wine.

The second word is the Strong's word (8492). It is the Hebrew
word "tiyrosh". This is non-alcoholic grapejuice or sweet wine. This
is the type of wine that would have been used at Passover -
non-alcoholic wine. This kind of wine is often called in the Bible
"new wine".

While "Yayin" is declared "kosher for Passover" today,
Yeshua/Jesus would have partook of "Tiyrosh" at His seder. This is the
sweet non-alcoholic wine that is called in the Bible "new wine" and
"sweet wine". "Tiyrosh" is associated with the outpouring of God's
Holy Spirit.

I'm not sure that this is correct. "New Wine or Tirosh" doesn't mean unfermented wine. It is wine from the "first drippings" of the grapes and could be very potent, as we see in this verse from Hosea.
Hosea 4:11 Harlotry, wine and new wine take away the understanding.
Of course this doesn't clear much up since the term in scripture during the Last Supper doesn't say "wine", it says "fruit of the vine". In Greek-γενήματος τῆς ἀμπέλου.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I'm not sure that this is correct. "New Wine or Tirosh" doesn't mean unfermented wine. It is wine from the "first drippings" of the grapes and could be very potent, as we see in this verse from Hosea.
Hosea 4:11 Harlotry, wine and new wine take away the understanding.
Of course this doesn't clear much up since the term in scripture during the Last Supper doesn't say "wine", it says "fruit of the vine". In Greek-γενήματος τῆς ἀμπέλου.

Interesting find.

It is freshly squeezed. So the fermentation would then depend on if the grapes were fresh or not, I guess. Someone made the point that the harvest of grapes would have been in the fall, and Passover was 6 months later.

I need to do more research for sure. Thanks for bringing up this puzzling verse.

 

[Antig]

Wine.....end of thread.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Wine.....end of thread.

ignored...

 

[Antig]

ignored...

Lol.....

Everyone knows that in those days, alcohol, wine, was a stable part of their diet. Non alcoholic wine had not been invented! Its only modern day alcohol free believers that say such.

Jesus turned water into WINE! Jesus drank WINE. Jesus turned WINE into His Blessed and Holy Blood at the last supper.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

All wine back then was at least somewhat alcoholic. Grapes naturally ferment into wine unless pasteurized, a process that did not exist back then. And grape juice will do so quickly without any needed intervention, since pressed grape juice naturally contains alcohol-producing yeasts.

For the purposes of our sacrament, the exact content of alcohol does not matter, but traditionally we prefer to use naturally fermented wine.

It's not clear that Jesus Last Supper was a Jewish seder, even if some of the elements are similar. Scholars disagree about this point. It's not really relevant to our sacrament.

Actually, there was a way of preserving grape juice by a sort of pasteurization back then. They would boil the grape juice down to a syrup, thus preserving it, Water was then added as needed. There are mentions of adding differing amounts of water to wine in the Bible and this is why, to account for differing concentrations of syrup.

 

[Antig]

Actually, there was a way of preserving grape juice by a sort of pasteurization back then. They would boil the grape juice down to a syrup, thus preserving it, Water was then added as needed. There are mentions of adding differing amounts of water to wine in the Bible and this is why, to account for differing concentrations of syrup.

It was alcoholic then as it is now.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

In biblical times wine was normally fermented to the maximum of about 16%. At that concentration the alcohol actually kills the yeast. Biblically this was called strong drink. However the wine was usually cut with water to bring down the alcohol content to 5% to 8%. Grape juice would only be available a few weeks a year during and just following harvest season. Beyond that time the wild yeasts would already be turning the juice into wine. Distillation of alcohol was not known until about the twelfth century. Among the common people the consumption of weak beer (about 2 or 3%) was actually more common than wine which was often reserved for special occasions.

i
Please read my post #71 for the explanation of adding water. Welsh may have been the first to preserve the grape juice without removing the water content but concentration methods were known.

 

[Hank77]

We know for a fact (because we have 2 eyewitness on the road to Emmaus), that He dies on a Friday and raised on Sunday.

Please explain the witness of Him dying on Friday. One can't get three nights, not even partial nights, if He died on Friday.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

It was alcoholic then as it is now.

Any proof for your contention or are we just to take your word for it?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Lol.....

Everyone knows that in those days, alcohol, wine, was a stable part of their diet. Non alcoholic wine had not been invented! Its only modern day alcohol free believers that say such.

Jesus turned water into WINE! Jesus drank WINE. Jesus turned WINE into His Blessed and Holy Blood at the last supper.

Ummm... the blood reference at the Last supper was symbolic unless you think Jesus contradicted the ordinance to not eat or drink blood.

 

[Hank77]

The lambs were killed on the 14th at the beginning of twilight, which to our calendar would have been the evening of the 13th, roasted and eaten the same day, the 14th, all on the same day as the Crucifixion.

The 15th is the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened bread, a high Sabbath, but many consider Passover as the first day of the whole feast.

Jesus rose from the dead on Saturday night - the beginning of the first day of the week.

That does not agree with scripture, maybe this will help.
When was the Passover Sacrifice Brought - NehemiasWall.com

 

[Antig]

Any proof for your contention or are we just to take your word for it?

Any proof they had / used non alcoholic wine?

 

[Antig]

Ummm... the blood reference at the Last supper was symbolic unless you think Jesus contradicted the ordinance to not eat or drink blood.

Symbolic. No.

 

[Hank77]

That's not what "in remembrance" refers to here.

In the Jewish Haggadah--the proscription of how to do a Passover Seder--certain key statements are made to emphasize the meaning and significance of the Passover. It says, "We were slaves in Egypt", it does not say "our ancestors were slaves in Egypt", because in the Passover meal the Jewish people "remember" the deliverance of Israel from Egypt. The past and the present are connected together here, the Passover draws those eating it into the reality of the deliverance--"We were slaves in Egypt". The Passover draws together history and present life into identity--as the people God delivered.

When Christ says "Do this for the remembrance of Me" He is not saying, "Don't forget Me", He's establishing a new meaning for this meal, even as the Passover connected the people with the deliverance from slavery in Egypt to be the free people of God, so does this Meal being instituted by Jesus for His followers connect them to His life-giving flesh and blood broken and shed for them. It is not mere memorial, but a sacred remembrance, or anamnesis; when we partake of this bread and the cup of this wine we are, as St. Paul himself says, partaking and sharing in the body and blood of Jesus (1 Corinthians 10:16-18), we partake and share in--personally--Christ's own passion, death, and offering of Himself.

If Jesus were only interested in us remembering Him in some vague abstract way, we can do that with anything or without anything. But Jesus' intent is far deeper here, when we receive this bread and wine, we receive Him, we receive His body, we receive His blood, we receive His sacrifice, we share in and of Him and all which He has done, together, as His people. We become participants in the deliverance, once and for all, from sin and death which He accomplished by His dying and rising.

And if these things weren't of such great importance, the Apostle would not warn us that when we mistreat and misapproach the Table of Christ we are not sinning against mere bread and wine, we are sinning against the very body and blood of the Lord,

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves." - 1 Corinthians 11:27-29

Since we are not receiving mere bread and wine, but the body and blood of Jesus Christ Himself, we ought to approach it with the same reverence we would show Him--because it is Him. We receive the very King of Glory when we receive His Supper.

-CryptoLutheran

This is one of the best explanations that I have read. People would do well to understand it.