If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

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Deadworm

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An ideal starting point for the OP's question is Job 4:17:
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?"
Ethically sensitive humans recognize that reformative justice is more loving and hopeful than purely retributive justice. Divine perfection is of course far more loving and praiseworthy than our inadequate strides towards perfection. So of course, God is morally monstrous if all who, for whatever reason, have not embraced Christ as their Lord and Savior suffer eternal conscious torment. Common sense dictates that humans are created with innate character flaws that require the right environment and the right support network to make spiritual progress. It is obvious that most humans can't make enough mistakes in their 3 score years and 10 to merit eternal torment.

But the New Testament in fact teaches that God's essence is love, and that applies to deceased humans as well. So what does not mean for God to love Hellbound humanity? Evangelical apologist C. S. Lewis pithily sums up the thrilling answer: "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." In other words, souls remain trapped in Hell only because of their continued refusal to open to redemptive choices. Thus the NT teaches that Hell is a debtor's prison from which ultimate release is possible, that the damned are exposed to Gospel preaching, and that proxy baptism for the unsaved dead can be effective. In short, the NT image of Hell is compatible with the image of a reform school or place of postmortem purgation.

Good evangelism asks the unsaved to be honest with themselves. Consistency requires Christians to be honest in their assessment of the Bible, so that they can display the honesty they demand of the unsaved. That means that the credibility of the biblical God depends on that God satisfying our best and purest intuition. A sadistic God is simply not compatibility with the biblical model of a God of pure unconditional love. I am a Christian because my lifelong study of the Bible demonstrates that God is no sadist. I am willing to stake my eternal destiny on this holy perception and want to avoid the company of those who embrace a sadistic God.

In her study of the Holocaust, Hannah Arendt laments the banality of evil. Death camp guards and their support team were often otherwise decent loving people who served their communities, coached youth soccer teams, and helped out fellow Germans in need. In that sense, their evil oppression of Jews was blended into a life that was otherwise very decent. Still, we rightly regard them as ghastly criminals. We should lifewise disparage the moral sensibilities of a Christian spirituality that cheerfully condemans all unbelievers to eternal conscious torment.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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What a load of complete rubbish.

says you who cannot show from the Word of Almighty God, that what I have said is "rubbish"! The fact that you can call Bible Truth "rubbish", shows the disregard that you have for what God says, much of what the Anglican "church" has been about for 100's of years, as the Wesley's found out!
 
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Der Alte

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An ideal starting point for the OP's question is Job 4:17:
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?"
. . .
The problem with this starting point is who decides what is just for God? Seems to me that most arguments against "eternal punishment" etc. begin with "I think,""I believe,"in my opinion"etc.
 
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Deadworm

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The problem with this starting point is who decides what is just for God? Seems to me that most arguments against "eternal punishment" etc. begin with "I think,""I believe,"in my opinion"etc.

A major reason why moderns have rejected the Greek pantheon is the petty and cruel soap opera that is generated by stories of Zeus, Apollo, and the other gods. It is disingenuous to accept the Bible on the strength of mindless claims to its infallibility and divine authority. True, there are apologetic arguments for biblical inspiration, but these are only as good as their underlying assumptions and those assumption derive from our experience. So when we assess Bible truth claims, we must consult our presumptive intuitions at their best and most noble to determine if the Biblical God is credible; we have no other choice. The contradictory concept of a God of pure unconditional love consigning the vast majority of humanity to eternal conscious torment is so ethically counter-intuitive that it must join the Greek pantheon in its consignment to the dustbin of parochial concepts of peevish and mean-spirited tribal gods. But the God of the Bible, rightly understood, really is beauty and unconditional love personified, and as such, is worth defending against the ghastly punitive god of evangelical tribalism and its brutish disregard of the guiding inner light of the loving Holy Spirit. The pursuit of the truth in this crucial matter inspired me to obtain an MDiv from Princeton and a doctorate from Harvard, just so I could learn as much as possible about the Bible in its original languages and cultural background to empower me to make as confident as possible a determination of the truth about this crucial matter. That was my way of trying to obey God's commandment to love God with all my mind as well as my heart.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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Yes that is true but the scriptures clearly do not teach that believers spend forever in heaven with God as you mistakenly assert as heaven is also a physical location.
Physical like we are now where death and sin? Sorry I do not agree. The realm of the Spirit is what is real the physical realm we live in is temporary. Just look at how Adam walked with God in Eden. That is the realm of God.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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Personal assassination only serves to weaken your view. I suggest you refrain from it. LOF = lake of fire.
Nothing personal. For a believer not know a goat is a clean animal just shows me someone does not know or understand the Mosaic Law.
 
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ClementofA

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An ideal starting point for the OP's question is Job 4:17:
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?"
Ethically sensitive humans recognize that reformative justice is more loving and hopeful than purely retributive justice. Divine perfection is of course far more loving and praiseworthy than our inadequate strides towards perfection. So of course, God is morally monstrous if all who, for whatever reason, have not embraced Christ as their Lord and Savior suffer eternal conscious torment. Common sense dictates that humans are created with innate character flaws that require the right environment and the right support network to make spiritual progress. It is obvious that most humans can't make enough mistakes in their 3 score years and 10 to merit eternal torment.

But the New Testament in fact teaches that God's essence is love, and that applies to deceased humans as well. So what does not mean for God to love Hellbound humanity? Evangelical apologist C. S. Lewis pithily sums up the thrilling answer: "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." In other words, souls remain trapped in Hell only because of their continued refusal to open to redemptive choices. Thus the NT teaches that Hell is a debtor's prison from which ultimate release is possible, that the damned are exposed to Gospel preaching, and that proxy baptism for the unsaved dead can be effective. In short, the NT image of Hell is compatible with the image of a reform school or place of postmortem purgation.

Good evangelism asks the unsaved to be honest with themselves. Consistency requires Christians to be honest in their assessment of the Bible, so that they can display the honesty they demand of the unsaved. That means that the credibility of the biblical God depends on that God satisfying our best and purest intuition. A sadistic God is simply not compatibility with the biblical model of a God of pure unconditional love. I am a Christian because my lifelong study of the Bible demonstrates that God is no sadist. I am willing to stake my eternal destiny on this holy perception and want to avoid the company of those who embrace a sadistic God.

In her study of the Holocaust, Hannah Arendt laments the banality of evil. Death camp guards and their support team were often otherwise decent loving people who served their communities, coached youth soccer teams, and helped out fellow Germans in need. In that sense, their evil oppression of Jews was blended into a life that was otherwise very decent. Still, we rightly regard them as ghastly criminals. We should lifewise disparage the moral sensibilities of a Christian spirituality that cheerfully condemans all unbelievers to eternal conscious torment.


Great post, sir.

Likewise the one who linked to the following earlier in this thread:

"What kind of God would call billions of people into being, knowing that was the unimaginably horrible outcome? The words callous, selfish, and unloving came to mind for me. Speaking of love..."

George MacDonald Saved My Life - George MacDonald Quotes - User Rated Quotes
 
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Oldmantook

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Nothing personal. For a believer not know a goat is a clean animal just shows me someone does not know or understand the Mosaic Law.
1. Why is it then that you have not even explained what the scape goat is according to the Law?
2. Would you then rather have Jesus name you a goat or a sheep?
If you would find out the answers to these two simple questions, then you would be biblically accurate in your understanding.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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1. Why is it then that you have not even explained what the scape goat is according to the Law?
2. Would you then rather have Jesus name you a goat or a sheep?
If you would find out the answers to these two simple questions, then you would be biblically accurate in your understanding.
Seeing both animals are clean animals the sheep being symbolic of God's elect, the goat in Matthew 25 is actually a young goat/baby goat and is symbolic of not the loss but goat believers. A pig is an unclean animal.

There were two goats in reference to the scapegoat and both of them are acceptable for sacrifice under the law of Moses so both are clean animals. The scapegoat is a for shadow of Jesus making atonement for our sins because the sacrifice of sheep and goats was never really acceptable for sin.

Lev 16:6 “Aaron is to offer the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household.S): 7 Then he is to take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the entrance to the tent of meeting.8 He is to cast lots" ; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: for the two goats—one lot for the Lord and the other for the scapegoat. 9 Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the Lord and sacrifice it for a sin offering. 10 But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.
 
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gordonhooker

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says you who cannot show from the Word of Almighty God, that what I have said is "rubbish"! The fact that you can call Bible Truth "rubbish", shows the disregard that you have for what God says, much of what the Anglican "church" has been about for 100's of years, as the Wesley's found out!

I called the rubbish that you wrote rubbish.
 
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Hewillcome2040

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Not sure why people don't think about this more deeply.

Consider that God knows everyone BEFORE it ever happens. God gives life. So if a person is lost forever, God knew it BEFORE they ever existed and He then enabled it to happen. I'm glad God put the Truth in my heart to understand that Eternal torment is a falsehood.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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People choose to side with Satan and take the Mark of the Beast so they'll receive the same fate as Satan by being Tormented Forever and Ever in The Lake of Fire.


Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be Tormented with Fire and Brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their Torment ascends Forever and Ever; and they have No Rest Day Or Night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

• Revelation 14:9-11
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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People choose to side with Satan and take the Mark of the Beast so they'll receive the same fate as Satan by being Tormented Forever and Ever in The Lake of Fire.


Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be Tormented with Fire and Brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their Torment ascends Forever and Ever; and they have No Rest Day Or Night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

• Revelation 14:9-11
The Beast is our carnal nature. It is the most destructive beast know to man. Adam had it you have it and even Hitler had it. The Book of Revelation is the most spiritual book ever written not literal. People do not choose to follow Satan it is our sin nature which we got when God caused the fall. But the blood of Jesus covers all sin. Fire in the Bible is for purification. Tell me the difference between the cloven tongues of fire on the day of Pentecost and the fire in the Lake of Fire?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The Beast is our carnal nature.
According to what?

This is not what Scripture says, not at all in line with what
Yahweh the Creator says, nor what Jesus says...... so .....
it is not to be accepted.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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The Beast is our carnal nature.


This isn't true at all. The Beast will Ascend out of The Bottomless Pit and is most likely The Fallen Angel Azazel :

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 17:8

When they finish their testimony, The Beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
• Revelation 11:7

And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.
• Revelation 9:11

 
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ClementofA

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People choose to side with Satan and take the Mark of the Beast so they'll receive the same fate as Satan by being Tormented Forever and Ever in The Lake of Fire.


Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be Tormented with Fire and Brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their Torment ascends Forever and Ever; and they have No Rest Day Or Night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

• Revelation 14:9-11

Compare Revelation 20:10 re the devil's fate:

Some literal translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

See also posts 130 & 131 @

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

Regarding 12 points re ages of ages ending.

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Chapter Five
Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?
Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4 – What Biblical Scholars Say about the Word “Aionios”

Aeon - Wikipedia
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Not sure why people don't think about this more deeply.

Consider that God knows everyone BEFORE it ever happens. God gives life. So if a person is lost forever, God knew it BEFORE they ever existed and He then enabled it to happen. I'm glad God put the Truth in my heart to understand that Eternal torment is a falsehood.

you can be sure it was NOT the God of the Holy Bible!
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).
No. This contradicts all Scripture. Twisting words and meanings as you do, you should be ashamed and repent as YHWH says. (not because of anything man says or could do to you, but because YHWH requires repentance IF it has not been and if it is not a sin that leads unto death that you are constantly committing as you promote the false gospel teachings)
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Compare Revelation 20:10 re the devil's fate:

Some literal translations say:



People who choose to deny Yeshua Messiah, Who Deny The Most High's Only Way Of Salvation and Willingly and Knowingly worship Satan and The Beast Will PAY For Their Sins Forever and They Deserve Every Second Of Their Punishment because They Willingly Chose It.
 
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