Universal Salvation - Did you know that this is at the core of the Gospel?

[OzSpen]

At the time of Christ's coming they don't. Some will be excluded...then. You haven't shown anyone will never enter.

Clement,

Jesus was clear in Matt 7:14 (NIV): 'But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it'.

I'm sticking with Jesus and not ClementofA.

Oz

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

terrywoodenpic,

1. 1 Corinthians 3 is not about purification from sin for the soul is preserved from fire.
The whole passage is about how Christians built on the foundation of the church.
bad works of Christians will burn up such as hay, wood, and stubble and good works will remain such as gold, silver, and precious stones.

2. It is not true that we are sinners our whole lives while being a committed Christian.
A person cannot serve God and the devil at the same time.

3. The true story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke showed that if the brothers of the rich man didn't listen to Moses and the law they wouldn't believe if one rose from the dead.

4. God is love and love is found in judgement for the wicked who will never repent for he judges fairly in Holiness.
Life now is our probationary period to become Kings, Priests, and Rulers in the kingdom to come. This includes sinners chance to become saved before death.
There is no such thing as purification to be saved after death as I have already shown in 1 Corinthians 3:1-16. Jerry kelso

All men sin and are sinners whatever they might believe their status to be.
It is quite impossible to be saved in this life.
We all have the potential to be saved in the next.
I am sorry if that bursts your little bubble of hope.
What people forget more than any thing else, is their sins of ommission, and sins of thought.
Have you never left undone some thing you should have done, or anything else, in the words of the general confession.

 

[ClementofA]

Clement,

Jesus was clear in Matt 7:14 (NIV): 'But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it'.

I'm sticking with Jesus and not ClementofA.

I'll stick with the inspired Word of God through the apostle Paul, rather than your ignorance of Jesus' words:

1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it
2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

Actually both are right.

Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it". This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Young's Literal Translation
how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!


Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.


"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter
(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

"In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

"Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

Hell is Payback

 

[jerry kelso]

Really, Jerry? How does it "show" that? It certainly doesn't say it. So it is your interpretation, IOW something not written, but which you are making up in your head. But i'm wondering how what you think, or reason, or imagine, follows from what is written? You didn't give any explanation, so one can only wonder how you arrived at such a conclusion.

Luke 16 nowhere states "there will be people who will never believe the gospel." In fact, the entire story doesn't even mention "the gospel", let alone "believing" in it.

It does not follow from the fact that there were those who are not persuaded by, and do not hear, "Moses and the prophets" that they would "never" do so. That is pure assumption with no basis in the Luke 16:19-31 story. Even if it should be taken literally.

Luke 16:19-31
Hell

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

clementofa,

1. The point of the true story is hell is a real place of torment where the soul goes.
In this case before the cross, Abraham was in the temporary paradise under the earth which was a gulf away or between Jose in hell.

2. The next point is that the rich man was not being purified but, just wanted to quit being afflicted.

3. The next point is that he thought he would testify to his brothers for there was no getting out for him.
He thought if someone came back from the grave they would believe and they were told if they didn't believe Moses and the law they wouldn't believe a man that would have been raised from the dead.
This goes along with eternal torment forever eternally I passages such as Revelation 20:10-15. The fact is you will never believe it in your hermeneutical state because you believe it is merely a temporary age.
You want a plain statement from me of every joy and tittle but can't produce it in the word forever so you have to change its meaning to age to suit your doctrine. I have to go for now. Jerry kelso

 

[Kenny'sID]

Sometimes I think Universalism, is created solely for those who fear hell for themselves and/or their loved ones. Atheists make it go away by claiming "no God", Faith only by claiming they won't go there not matter what they do, and then this...unending second chances that evidently somehow make the ever so popular biblical "hell", non existent.

Edit: Then there is this take I got in reply to this post that needs to be added here:

For that to be so, we would need to believe that there actually was a physical hell, and a physical heaven for that matter.
I believe in neither.

Feel Good/"what I want things to be like", takes on the bible. Might as well be discussing a flat earth.

 

[Hewillcome2040]

I'll stick with the inspired Word of God through the apostle Paul, rather than your ignorance of Jesus' words:

1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it
2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

Actually both are right.

Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it". This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Young's Literal Translation
how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!


Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.


"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter
(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

"In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

"Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

Hell is Payback

It is actually present in their text also. Most of them are quoting from King James Version or another derivative of the same Greek Text from the Textus Receptus. That source text has it in the present tense as well.

 

[redleghunter]

At the time of Christ's coming they don't. Some will be excluded...then. You haven't shown anyone will never enter.

Revelation 21: New King James Version (NKJV)


21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

 

[Hewillcome2040]

clementofa,

1. The point of the true story is hell is a real place of torment where the soul goes.
In this case before the cross, Abraham was in the temporary paradise under the earth which was a gulf away or between Jose in hell.

2. The next point is that the rich man was not being purified but, just wanted to quit being afflicted.

3. The next point is that he thought he would testify to his brothers for there was no getting out for him.
He thought if someone came back from the grave they would believe and they were told if they didn't believe Moses and the law they wouldn't believe a man that would have been raised from the dead.
This goes along with eternal torment forever eternally I passages such as Revelation 20:10-15. The fact is you will never believe it in your hermeneutical state because you believe it is merely a temporary age.
You want a plain statement from me of every joy and tittle but can't produce it in the word forever so you have to change its meaning to age to suit your doctrine. I have to go for now. Jerry kelso

Rich Man = High Priest (based on his apparel and the rest of the parable)
Begger = Lazarus - a Lepper (covered in sores)
Lazarus would be laid at the gait since leppers could not enter therein because they were not clean.

So already though this is a parable, the Pharisees would have made identification with this story for the would have known a real Lazarus and understood the clothing depiction of the rich man.

Gulf = something to wide to be passible. I believe this is the mortality the rich man has verses the immortality of Abraham.

So now ask yourself why would the flames affect the tongue of the rich man? It is by the tongue of the High Priest that his sins were being committed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"clementofa,

1. The point of the true story is hell is a real place of torment where the soul goes.
In this case before the cross, Abraham was in the temporary paradise under the earth which was a gulf away or between Jose in hell.

2. The next point is that the rich man was not being purified but, just wanted to quit being afflicted.

3. The next point is that he thought he would testify to his brothers for there was no getting out for him.
He thought if someone came back from the grave they would believe and they were told if they didn't believe Moses and the law they wouldn't believe a man that would have been raised from the dead.
This goes along with eternal torment forever eternally I passages such as Revelation 20:10-15. The fact is you will never believe it in your hermeneutical state because you believe it is merely a temporary age.
You want a plain statement from me of every joy and tittle but can't produce it in the word forever so you have to change its meaning to age to suit your doctrine. I have to go for now. Jerry kelso"

expanded quote from previous post.

note: not even a drop of water for those who chose to reject Jesus,
not even one drop of water to relieve their suffering or pain.

This is Perfect, True, and Reliable - as Jesus Says this all through His Plan, to ALL HIS DISCIPLES, EVERYONE. (TODAY and YESTERDAY and FOREVER)


(i.e. all those people who paid money for indulgences as if to "help" their lost ones,
wasted not just the money, but their own lives as well) ..... an eternal loss....
unless
someone turns to God now, in this life, to be saved, they cannot be saved ever.

 

[redleghunter]

It should be reasonably clear to both of you that I am not a Bible literalist.

Considering you have not used the Bible in your assertions, that much is clear.

I do not believe the bible to be the actual words of God or Jesus.

Again, that much is clear from your subjective assertions.

There is no objective truth in the bible only inferred truths.

How do you test truth claims? Or is Christianity a faith based on mere human subjective opinion?

Were that not so, there would only be one opinion about anything in it, which is clearly nothing like the case.

A false premise on your part. How fallen fallible humans misuse Holy Scriptures has no impact on their Inspiration.

 

[jerry kelso]

All men sin and are sinners whatever they might believe their status to be.
It is quite impossible to be saved in this life.
We all have the potential to be saved in the next.
I am sorry if that bursts your little bubble of hope.
What people forget more than any thing else, is their sins of ommission, and sins of thought.
Have you never left undone some thing you should have done, or anything else, in the words of the general confession.

terrywoodenpic,

1. I hate to burst your bubble but that is your opinion and not Bible.
The Bible says we are in this world but not of it.
It says we are children of the devil.
A truthful person is not a liar. Why? Because a truthful person is truthful.
A truthful person could tell a lie.
The point is christians we are not sinners by nature.
We can be labeled a sinner just because we can commit an act of sin.

2. We are saved, being saved, an will be completely saved when our probationary period is over.
Sins of omission can be forgiven whether you remember or or not.
The best thing to do is when the Apirit brings it to your rememberance.
Even in the Old Testament they would give offerings and be forgiven when it came to their remembrance.

3. Thoughts of sin by temptation are not sin unless they are allowed to become by dwelling and lusting.

4. We are to overcome and live free from sin. If we sin we are ask for forgiveness and go. Gotta go. Jerry kelso

 

[mkgal1]

Who never fails? The Godhead for they are always in harmony.
Just because God allows freewill choice in Man he will not go against that otherwise it wouldn't be real love but, it doesn't mean he fails.
God has the power to do many things but he will not go against his character of Holiness.
He is sovereign but will not damn some and save some just because he can.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on freewill and that love has to be free in order to be genuine love. That's actually a main factor in why I believe in Universal Restoration/Reconciliation....because making the choice to "love" God out of fear of punishment, to my mind, isn't freely choosing (it's a choice made under duress...that's coercive and manipulative...and I don't believe that's "love").

We live in a world that's a whole different economy than God's. Right now....people that step all over others in order to get what they want ARE rewarded with their material desires (and it's rare that anyone--more powerful than they are-- criticizes them).

When that's stripped away, though, when God's glory is exposed without sin distorting it (which I believe ALL will have a chance to experience)....love will not fail (in my belief).

 

[mkgal1]

An excerpt from an article I found to be interesting:

Right doctrine should lead to right character

The problem can be put simply. This doctrine of eternal conscious torment seems to be fundamentally at odds with becoming like Christ. But isn’t that backwards? Shouldn’t right doctrine seamlessly interweave with right character formation? Put another way, if a doctrine requires us to cultivate vicious attitudes, isn’t that reasonable evidence that this doctrine is false?

Eric Seibert believes so and he offers a way forward with a hermeneutical principle to guide theological reflection. (For more on Seibert see my audio podcast interview). Seibert begins by quoting the great Church Father, St. Augustine:

“Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this two-fold love of God and our neighbor, does not yet understand them as he ought.”~How the Traditional Doctrine of Hell Undermines Christian Character

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

A false dilemma on your part. How fallen fallible humans misuse Holy Scriptures has no impact on their Inspiration.

I do not know what a false dilemma is? a dilemma that was false would be no dilemma at all.

The Scriptures were written by men like us, with similar failings and incomplete understandings and equally unreliable and misremembered sources. They were selected and collated in a way that confirmed the established beliefs and dogma of that time.
Those writers and selectors were subject to the same frailties as are men today.
Men can be no more or less inspired today. Inspiration is impossible to confirm.

Never the Less The Bible and a few other writings are the best source documents we have.
we must use them with intelligence and reason. But should never give them more authority than they warrant, in the light of other evidence and reason.

 

[redleghunter]

The Scriptures were written by men like us, with similar failings and incomplete understandings and equally unreliable and misremembered sources. They were selected and collated in a way that confirmed the established beliefs and dogma of that time.
Those writers and selectors were subject to the same frailties as are men today.
Men can be no more or less inspired today. Inspiration is impossible to confirm.

You deny the Holy Spirit had any involvement in inspiring the OT and NT?

 

[redleghunter]

I do not know what a false dilemma is? a dilemma that was false would be no dilemma at all.

My apologies. Your statement was a false premise not a false dilemma.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

footnote: "right doctrine" might lead to right character, God Willing,

but finding anyone with "right doctrine" as God Says is very rare on earth and on forums. (thus those who think they have "fight doctrine" hardly ever find out that they don't ..... there's something else they try to protect (false teachings), and that's not a way to learn truth)

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

You deny the Holy Spirit had any involvement in inspiring the OT and NT?

Not at all, the Holy Spirit inspired men then, and he inspires men now. the ancients had no monopoly on inspiration.
Unfortunately Holy inspiration is hard to define or differentiate from other sources of inspiration.
The scriptures were partly historic remembrances, fables and laws, that were first written down on the destruction of the first temple, and later adopted as the Old Testament.
The new testament is made up of letters, and what people remembered of Jesus doings and teachings, also what people remembered about the doings and sayings of the Apostles and some more fanciful prophecy.
Almost nothing known is verbatim directly from God or Jesus.
It is fallible but the best we have....

 

[Der Alte]

Begin quote

Your saying the Lord doesn't get what He desires. What do you say about this verse:
Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Did not the Lord say that He wanted all men to be saved?

End quote

Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
.....This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·

14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them. ​

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

 

[Hewillcome2040]

I do not know what a false dilemma is? a dilemma that was false would be no dilemma at all.

The Scriptures were written by men like us, with similar failings and incomplete understandings and equally unreliable and misremembered sources. They were selected and collated in a way that confirmed the established beliefs and dogma of that time.
Those writers and selectors were subject to the same frailties as are men today.
Men can be no more or less inspired today. Inspiration is impossible to confirm.

Never the Less The Bible and a few other writings are the best source documents we have.
we must use them with intelligence and reason. But should never give them more authority than they warrant, in the light of other evidence and reason.

I have the Holy Spirit and He teaches me what I need to know. The Bible is a powerful document in aiding those lessons that the Spirit teaches me.