Sacrifice and Catholic teaching

[TheBibleIsTruth]

It is not a matter of interest to this thread where "they" are found.
The subject matter of this thread is difficult enough without randomly presenting unrelated material into it.

so, I take it from your response, there are NO Scripture references to these outlandish teachings?

 

[Albion]

It shouldn't be, since the Bible is the ultimate source of much of the tradition in the first place.

There is an element of truth in that statement, however the Catholic churches which use Tradition (RC, EO, and others) assert that the Tradition they adhere to is not just the customary or historic way of reading the Bible, but that there is a second and equal stream of divine revelation next to the Scriptures which God has given for our guidance, and that it is to be found in the consensus of opinion in the church from the beginning of the church forwards.

There is no Scriptural warrant for that notion, and the doctrines that are supposedly based on such Tradition cannot be shown, from history, actually have been part of the church's thinking from the beginning.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Absolutely correct. We are called to sow seed, not till the soil. Only God can till the soil.

Do you mean, as a result, that we cannot make anyone believe God's Word ?
And that no one can make us believe God's Word ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So, exactly where in the Bible are the "teachings" of the RC church, on Mary, found?

I don't think anyone claimed that are found in the Bible.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Do you mean, as a result, that we cannot make anyone believe God's Word ?
And that no one can make us believe God's Word ?

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

 

[fhansen]

The ONLY reason that the RC church rejects that the Holy Bible ALONE is the Authority of the teachings of any Church, or Christian, is because they can then justify their man-made nonsense, especially about Mary, where they have exalted her to an equality with God the Son! Such are the deceptions that they readily adopt, and reject the SOLE Authority of the Holy Bible! God, in His infinite Mercy, opened the eyes of a monk named Martin Luther, to the horrors and errors of this "church", that praised man more than Almighty God, and murdered millions who would not agree with their heresies!. These, my friend, and historical facts!

Here's Martin Luther in a 1522 sermon: "The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.".

A 1527 sermon called "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God": "It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin."

And a Christmas sermon in 1531:"[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures."

Luther rightfully opposed abuses and excesses in the church. But those were not present in her teachings, only in the actions and behavior of some of her leaders.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Ahhh..... COL! So on our last day (when we die), or THE last day (when Jesus returns),

then all this arguing will stop , eh? GOOD ! COME QUICKLY MASTER SAVIOR KING JESUS!

MARANANTHA !

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Here's Martin Luther in a 1522 sermon: "The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.".

A 1527 sermon called "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God": "It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin."

And a Christmas sermon in 1531:"[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures."

Luther rightfully opposed abuses and excesses in the church. But those were not present in her teachings, only in the actions and behavior of some of her leaders.

It shows that even Luther can get his theology wrong!

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

I don't think anyone claimed that are found in the Bible.

then why have beliefs that are contrary to what the Word of God teaches, as suppose them as divine authority?

 

[fhansen]

There is an element of truth in that statement, however the Catholic churches which use Tradition (RC, EO, and others) assert that the Tradition they adhere to is not just the customary or historic way of reading the Bible, but that there is a second and equal stream of divine revelation next to the Scriptures which God has given for our guidance, and that it is to be found in the consensus of opinion in the church from the beginning of the church forwards.

There is no Scriptural warrant for that notion, and the doctrines that are supposedly based on such Tradition cannot be shown, from history, actually have been part of the church's thinking from the beginning.

There is at least Scriptural acknowledgement that not everything Jesus said and did or that His disciples taught was recorded in NT writings. And there is certainly practical warrant as well for the notion that Tradition is a separate stream of revelation. The Church, in the east and in the west, naturally lived and experienced and received whatever she did at the beginning, and this is why she practices the faith as she does. And this is why there's so much overlapping agreement on basic beliefs such as infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, the real presence by whatever name we give it, a final state of purification, veneration of Mary, the sacraments, the liturgy, etc. These issues are settled for them, by history, while they are debated by sincere adherents of Sola Scriptura on these forums alone, on this thread alone, generally both arguing plausibly with Scripture alone.

 

[fhansen]

deleted

 

[Arsenios]

at least the Protestants use the Holy Bible as their ultimate Authority, while the catholics and orthodox are more interested in "church tradition"! The difference is HUGE!

We kiss the Bible whenever we read its holy words...
We treasure and reverence this Holy Book...
But our "Ultimate Authority" is God in us...
The Bible for us is a MEANS of this access to the Revelation of God in us...
It is an essential part of our repentance from sin...
And for our calling upon the Name of the Lord...

God Bless You, Bro...

Arsenios

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

then why have beliefs that are contrary to what the Word of God teaches,
as suppose them as divine authority?

I don't know anyone Christian who thinks like that, do you ?

 

[Albion]

There is at least Scriptural acknowledgement that not everything Jesus said and did or that His disciples taught was recorded in NT writings.

True...and that passage also says that what is recorded in Scripture is what is sufficient for us. 'Tradition' and all extra-Biblical requirements imposed by the Church are ruled out.

 

[Arsenios]

So, you are saying that the Word of Almighty God, is not sufficient , and that we need the "words of humans", which are "equal" to guide us in our lives? This is... delusion

The human being Paul wrote most of the Epistles... Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, all human beings, wrote the Gospels, John, an old man, wrote Revelation, and Peter, another of your scorned humans, wrote a few Epistles... Not to mention James (Iakovos), who wrote one of the Epistles... He was also human... Their essential thing in common is that all of them were Holy Men of God... For of such is all Scripture written... And their existence was not exterminated upon the completion of the Book of Revelation...

This Faith of God is passed on from generation to generation...

Do you call the Mother of Christ Blessed?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

and where exactly is this "role" of Mary in the Bible? She, like all the others who have died in Jesus Christ, is dead, and in heaven, but cannot communicate with any living person. She is NOT "omnipresent", which belongs ONLY to God! Lets have some Scriptures, please

Please give Biblical Proof for your (personal) opinion above...

Arsenios

 

[fhansen]

True...and that passage also says that what is recorded in Scripture is what is sufficient for us. 'Tradition' and all extra-Biblical requirements imposed by the Church are ruled out.

That's speculative. Nothing's ruled out. Tradition often necessarily provides, by experience, what Scripture often simply cannot on its own: the definitive answer to questions on the faith.

 

[Arsenios]

Well, then, the best approach probably would be for you to find out what your own church teaches and then come back and resume the discussion.

The Orthodox Faith understands that we eat the Whole Body of our Lord in ANY amount of the Communion Gifts we receive, however small... For the whole is present in all the parts...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I find the Eastern Orthodox sticks to the bible more closely than the Catholic Church regarding who Mary is.

Flattery will get you nowhere!

A.

 

[Albion]

And there is certainly practical warrant as well for the notion that Tradition is a separate stream of revelation.

No, there isn't.

There is at least Scriptural acknowledgement that not everything Jesus said and did or that His disciples taught was recorded in NT writings.

Of course, but that doesn't mean humans are at liberty to invent their own teachings. And, as noted already, what is NOT recorded is not to be required of us--but that is exactly what the "Holy Tradition" churches do.