Sacrifice and Catholic teaching

[TheBibleIsTruth]

And where, exactly, did you get the notion that all elements of the faith must be explicitly spelled out in the bible? Is that just some sort of wild speculation on your part? And do you get your knowledge of the lives of the residents of heaven from the same place?

So, what exactly is the basis of your faith? Words of mere man, or the Word of God? Mine is the latter! Because you cannot justify these heretical teachings of the RC church on Mary from the Holy Bible, because they do NOT exist in it, you try to wriggle out by a silly "challenge" to my faith in Bible Truth! Talk about being desperate!

 

[fhansen]

So, what exactly is the basis of your faith? Words of mere man, or the Word of God? Mine is the latter! Because you cannot justify these heretical teachings of the RC church on Mary from the Holy Bible, because they do NOT exist in it, you try to wriggle out by a silly "challenge" to my faith in Bible Truth! Talk about being desperate!

Desperation is the ultimate lot of one who adamantly clings to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. I am informed by the Church which God established at the beginnings of the Christian faith, to which He imparted His Word and through which He proclaims it, and there can only be "One Lord, one faith, one Baptism" Eph 4:5

 

[concretecamper]

and where exactly is this "role" of Mary in the Bible?

Understanding Mary as queen mother sheds light on her important intercessory role in the Christian life. Just like the queen mother of the Davidic kingdom, Mary serves as advocate for the people in the Kingdom of God today. Thus, we should approach our queen mother with confidence, knowing that she carries our petitions to her royal son and that he responds to her as Solomon did to Bathsheba: "I will never refuse you."

Is Mary's Queenship Biblical? | Catholic Answers

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Understanding Mary as queen mother sheds light on her important intercessory role in the Christian life. Just like the queen mother of the Davidic kingdom, Mary serves as advocate for the people in the Kingdom of God today. Thus, we should approach our queen mother with confidence, knowing that she carries our petitions to her royal son and that he responds to her as Solomon did to Bathsheba: "I will never refuse you."

Is Mary's Queenship Biblical? | Catholic Answers

The link you give is nothing more than "speculative theology", and has no basis from the Holy Bible. the "references" given say nothing of what you claim, and have been taken well out of their context! Mary had an important role to play as bearing Jesus Christ in her womb and giving birth to Him. She was NOT "sinless", nor, "joint redeemer", or "having her own kingdom", or "intercedes for anyone", this is all man-made RC dogma, which is no more than "wishful thinking", but very dangerous!

 

[Albion]

I don't think the Catholic Church teaches a physical presence.

Well, then, the best approach probably would be for you to find out what your own church teaches and then come back and resume the discussion.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Understanding Mary as queen mother sheds light on her important intercessory role in the Christian life. Just like the queen mother of the Davidic kingdom, Mary serves as advocate for the people in the Kingdom of God today. Thus, we should approach our queen mother with confidence, knowing that she carries our petitions to her royal son and that he responds to her as Solomon did to Bathsheba: "I will never refuse you."

Is Mary's Queenship Biblical? | Catholic Answers

I find the Eastern Orthodox sticks to the bible more closely than the Catholic Church regarding who Mary is.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

I find the Eastern Orthodox sticks to the bible more closely than the Catholic Church regarding who Mary is.

and exactly what is that?

 

[SolomonVII]

at least the Protestants use the Holy Bible as their ultimate Authority, while the catholics and orthodox are more interested in "church tradition"! The difference is HUGE!

It shouldn't be, since the Bible is the ultimate source of much of the tradition in the first place. Ideas and language of the Bible relate directly to Tradition.
And, the ultimate authority is God.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

and exactly what is that?

I asked this question in TAW, and this was the response.
About Mary

Feel free to add your own questions.

 

[Fidelibus]

at least the Protestants use the Holy Bible as their ultimate Authority, while the catholics and orthodox are more interested in "church tradition"!

You do realize that Protestantism has only been around for only 500 yrs, right? Which means you are placing your confidence in Martin Luther’s unbiblical theory of sola scriptura. Which means the unbiblical doctrine of sola scriptura (The Bible Alone) has only been around for only a mere 500 yrs. Whereas Catholics, on the other hand, for the past 2000 yrs, recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture. The true "rule of faith"—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly.

And please spare us the typical Protestant argument of using (out of context) 2 Timothy 3:16-17 as proof for the bible alone being sufficient as a sole rule of faith.

The difference is HUGE!

Yes! Unfortunately for you, the first 15 hundred years of early Christianity before Protestantism is a HUGE difference! Like I always say, early Christian history is not a friend of Protestantism.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

It shouldn't be, since the Bible is the ultimate source of much of the tradition in the first place. Ideas and language of the Bible relate directly to Tradition.
And, the ultimate authority is God.

So, exactly where in the Bible are the "teachings" of the RC church, on Mary, found?

"the great Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, who is the treasurer [sequestra] of our peace with God, and the mediatrix [administra] of graces...."

"He hear the prayers of those who beseech through her, whom He Himself willed to be the mediatrix [administram] of graces."

"nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother."

"it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us"

"Mother, that she who had been the minister [administra] of the mystery of human redemption, was equally the minister [administra] of the grace to be given from it for all time, practically immeasurable power being given to her"

"So may the most powerful Virgin Mother, who once 'cooperated in love that the faithful might be born in the Church', be even now the means and mediatrix of our salvation"

"Now from this common sharing of will and suffering between Christ and Mary, she 'merited to become most worthily the Reparatrix of the lost world"

" the fact that she was with Him crucified and dying, was in accord with the divine plan. For with her suffering and dying Son, Mary endured suffering and almost death... ... further, there is a most constant belief among the faithful, proved by long experience, that as many as employ the same Virgin as Patron, will not at all perish forever. "

" She, the Virgin Mother, [is] the treasurer [sequestra] of all graces with God"

" we know also that all things are imparted to us from God the Greatest and Best, through the hands of the Mother of God"

" ... having been associated, as Mother and Minister, with the King of martyrs in the ineffable work of human Redemption, she is always associated, with a practically measureless power, in the distribution of the graces that derive from the Redemption.... And her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion"

" Mother, there may be opened to them, all the treasures of the divine Redemption, and so they may have life, and have it more abundantly. Did not the Lord will that we have everything through Mary?"

The Church on Mary's Mediation

 

[concretecamper]

The link you give is nothing more than "speculative theology", and has no basis from the Holy Bible.

Actually, it uses the Bible nicely to understand the role of the Queen Mother. Do a google or 2 and you will see many non Catholic sources reaching the same conclusion on the importance of the Queen Mother.

the "references" given say nothing of what you claim, and have been taken well out of their context!

I see, you say it is so, so it is so. What a sound argument. You sound like our favorite anglican now.

nothing of what you claim

I claimed nothing. You asked for biblical back up for Mary's role and I gave you an answer. I understand you don't like the answer, but it is based only on your preconceived notions.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

You do realize that Protestantism has only been around for only 500 yrs, right? Which means you are placing your confidence in Martin Luther’s unbiblical theory of sola scriptura. Which means the unbiblical doctrine of sola scriptura (The Bible Alone) has only been around for only a mere 500 yrs. Whereas Catholics, on the other hand, for the past 2000 yrs, recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture. The true "rule of faith"—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly.

And please spare us the typical Protestant argument of using (out of context) 2 Timothy 3:16-17 as proof for the bible alone being sufficient as a sole rule of faith.



Yes! Unfortunately for you, the first 15 hundred years of early Christianity before Protestantism is a HUGE difference! Like I always say, early Christian history is not a friend of Protestantism.

The ONLY reason that the RC church rejects that the Holy Bible ALONE is the Authority of the teachings of any Church, or Christian, is because they can then justify their man-made nonsense, especially about Mary, where they have exalted her to an equality with God the Son! Such are the deceptions that they readily adopt, and reject the SOLE Authority of the Holy Bible! God, in His infinite Mercy, opened the eyes of a monk named Martin Luther, to the horrors and errors of this "church", that praised man more than Almighty God, and murdered millions who would not agree with their heresies!. These, my friend, and historical facts!

 

[Phil 1:21]

So, you are saying that the Word of Almighty God, is not sufficient , and that we need the "words of humans", which are "equal" to guide us in our lives? This is the greatest delusion that the devil has misled millions into accepting! It is ONLY what God says, that has ANY importance on ANY issue. As Isaiah 55:9 puts it, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." End of any discussion!

I agree. It is so sad to see someone represent the beliefs of a denomination that the word of God is insufficient. This is how we end up down the wide path paved with cobble stones of silliness like purgatory (and the cathedrals built by the sale of indulgences), praying to the creation instead of the Creator, and Mary as co-redemtrix.

2 Timothy 4:3-4

"3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Actually, it uses the Bible nicely to understand the role of the Queen Mother. Do a google or 2 and you will see many non Catholic sources reaching the same conclusion on the importance of the Queen Mother.

I see, you say it is so, so it is so. What a sound argument. You sound like our favorite anglican now.

I claimed nothing. You asked for biblical back up for Mary's role and I gave you an answer. I understand you don't like the answer, but it is based only on your preconceived notions.

I am a repented, born-again, Christ following, Bible believing, Christian, who has been saved not by any merit of myself (as some falsely teach), but by the absolute Grace, Mercy, Forgiveness and Salvation that is through Jesus Christ! No Anglican, another "religion" that has more in common with what the devil espouses, that what the Bible teaches!

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

I agree. It is so sad to see someone represent the beliefs of a denomination that the word of God is insufficient. This is how we end up down the wide path paved with cobble stones of silliness like purgatory (and the cathedrals built by the sale of indulgences), praying to the creation instead of the Creator, and Mary as co-redemtrix.

2 Timothy 4:3-4

"3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

Indeed, and other blasphemies!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Some denominations or groups all over the world accept man's word over God's Word.
There is nothing anyone can change about that.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Some denominations or groups all over the world accept man's word over God's Word.
There is nothing anyone can change about that.

Absolutely correct. We are called to sow seed, not till the soil. Only God can till the soil.

 

[SolomonVII]

So, exactly where in the Bible are the "teachings" of the RC church, on Mary, found?

It is not a matter of interest to this thread where "they" are found.
The subject matter of this thread is difficult enough without randomly presenting unrelated material into it.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yes, the letter of James, a good letter to read right now. Especially James 3:12-18.