Sacrifice and Catholic teaching

[PeaceB]

Not to upset this parade, but the doctrine we call Real Presence in no way requires the elements to change into the physical, carnal, literal flesh and blood of Christ, just that the bread and wine acquire, in some way or other, the bona fide presence of the Lord.

EDIT: This is in response to the exchange that is now half a dozen or more posts back.

I don't think the Catholic Church teaches a physical presence. Jesus becomes corporally present, but not in the manner in which a body occupies a place. It it not as though you break a piece of Jesus apart when a consecrated host is broken in half, or that Jesus's body becomes hot and cold when the temperature in the room changes. I don't think you will find any official Catholic documents that speak of a physical presence.

then Mary could not have been sinless! As someone sinless does not need a personal Saviour, which is exactly what she needed!

Not at all. Jesus can save a person who has fallen, or can save a person from ever falling in the first place, as Scripture teaches. We fall into the former category. Mary falls into the latter.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

I don't think the Catholic Church teaches a physical presence. Jesus becomes corporally present, but not in the manner in which a body occupies a place. It it not as though you break a piece of Jesus apart when a consecrated host is broken in half, or that Jesus's body becomes hot and cold when the temperature in the room changes. I don't think you will find any official Catholic documents that speak of a physical presence.

Not at all. Jesus can save a person who has fallen, or can save a person from ever falling in the first place, as Scripture teaches. We fall into the former category. Mary falls into the latter.

"Mary falls into the latter", where in the Bible is this found, or is it just a guess?

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

It is ultimately faith or course, but it is a faith that does not contradict science and empirical experience. It is exactly because there are instances that we bond with each other so intimately, and see ourselves reflected in the love radiating from a dear one's eyes, that we can understand that the Biblical claims of us being all of one body may be true.
Moreover, the faith of believing this to be true, understanding that who we are ultimately goes beyond ordinary experience, leads to rational decisions to change behavior. To know in faith that we are of one body leads to leading one's life and treating others as if they and we are one and the same.


Maybe I have been here too long, but the bickering between Protestants and Catholics that go on here, and with Orthodox too, is something that I have come to regard as uninteresting and to engage only on that level is unrewarding.
It is difficult ideas that we are dealing with here, and the transcendant nature of religious ideals entails that the discussions always take place on the outer limits of what is known and knowable. We often have to stretch our imaginations to present ideas of the extraordinary into understandable terms, and it is therefore not hard to understand how people fail to grasp what we are attempting to say.




Modern popes since Pope Paul VI in the nineteen sixties have restated traditional views on morality and sexuality that have put the faithful at odds with society, even more than is the case with the Orthodox. The current pope does not change any of these teachings- indeed he cannot, any more than a mathematician can change the answer to 2+2. What is true then is true now and always.
What the current pope has done is refrained from putting any emphasis on these kinds of teachings, and Catholics who have spent great effort affirming these teachings against a hostile and disapproving world feel abandoned by the current pope.
For example it is not easy for Catholics to follow Catholic teaching on birth control. Most Catholics don't, and the ones that do, do so with great effort. For these, the pope giving criticisms of Catholics for 'breeding like rabbits', the feeling is one of abandonment.

I myself am a bit more on the conservative side of the equation, but the reduction of prestige that the current pope has in the eyes of those who have traditionally most revered the papacy is not altogether an unwelcome trend. "The pope has given his statement; the matter is now settled" to me has always seemed to be an abuse of what the papacy is all about. It is ironic that the pope who started out by severely questioning the legitimacy of many of the bishops he accused of abusing their office finds himself subject to the same scrutiny.
This to me is not an altogether bad thing. It is good to differentiate from the legitimacy of ecclesiastical authority, and the politicization that often happens with any office that wields a lot of power and/or influence.

at least the Protestants use the Holy Bible as their ultimate Authority, while the catholics and orthodox are more interested in "church tradition"! The difference is HUGE!

 

[Antig]

at least the Protestants use the Holy Bible as their ultimate Authority, while the catholics and orthodox are more interested in "church tradition"! The difference is HUGE!

That is indeed posted by someone who does not know Catholicism / Orthodoxy.

Blessings

 

[fhansen]

How about the teaching of the Holy Bible? care to share just one Scripture that says Mary was ever sinless? Luke 1:47 clearly shows her to be a sinner!

We have to consider what we're saved from-what it means to be lost. To be lost means to be cut off from the immediate knowledge of and union with God and the grace that His indwelling provides us. Fallen man is born into this lost condition and only God can rectify it, only God can find and save man. We don't know Him, let alone love Him from birth.

Mary was simply granted salvation in her mother's womb, as a favor to her and to the rest of the world. She was thus united with God interiorly in this direct manner and was therefore enabled to refrain from sin, perhaps with greater graces yet due to the nature of her mission. Born a descendant of Adam, this would be impossible without God, her Savior.

 

[mikeangel]

No, the Mass has been characterized as a re-presentation at least from the Council of Trent:

~The Council of Trent - Session 22~​

Forasmuch as, under the former Testament, according to the testimony of the Apostle Paul, there was no perfection, because of the weakness of the Levitical priesthood; there was need, God, the Father of mercies, so ordaining, that another priest should rise, according to the order of Melchisedech, our Lord Jesus Christ, who might consummate, and lead to what is perfect, as many as were to be sanctified. He, therefore, our God and Lord, though He was about to offer Himself once on the altar of the cross unto God the Father, by means of his death, there to operate an eternal redemption; nevertheless, because that His priesthood was not to be extinguished by His death, in the last supper, on the night in which He was betrayed,--that He might leave, to His own beloved Spouse the Church, a visible sacrifice, such as the nature of man requires, whereby that bloody sacrifice, once to be accomplished on the cross, might be represented, and the memory thereof remain even unto the end of the world, and its salutary virtue be applied to the remission of those sins which we daily commit,--declaring Himself constituted a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech, He offered up to God the Father His own body and blood under the species of bread and wine; and, under the symbols of those same things, He delivered (His own body and blood) to be received by His apostles, whom He then constituted priests of the New Testament; and by those words, Do this in commemoration of me, He commanded them and their successors in the priesthood, to offer (them); even as the Catholic Church has always understood and taught.​

Please educate yourself before spreading falsehoods.

Please use scripture to substantiate your position. And I am digging into honest, and plain to see in my opinion, paradoxes in Catholic doctrine. In your above quote, it says-

" in the last supper, on the night in which He was betrayed,--that He might leave, to His own beloved Spouse the Church, a visible sacrifice, such as the nature of man requires, whereby that bloody sacrifice, once to be accomplished on the cross, might be represented, and the memory thereof remain even unto the end of the world, and its salutary virtue be applied to the remission of those sins which we daily commit,"

This suggest, that communion and receiving communion remits sins.

"its salutary virtue be applied to the remission of those sins"

Believing in Jesus forgives sins. I know Catholics who recieve communion everyday, and are some of the worst and arrogant people on the planet. Also, Priest who were later nailed for being perverts, whom I recieved communion from, who have not admitted wrongdoing, and whose daily sins were and are not remitted just from receiving communion. I do not believe by recieving communion you are forgiven sins or they are remitted. It is just following Jesus' command. Please pray to the spirit to open your eyes, through his word, not mans opinions. Peace

 

[fhansen]

at least the Protestants use the Holy Bible as their ultimate Authority, while the catholics and orthodox are more interested in "church tradition"! The difference is HUGE!

YES! It's HUGE! And that's exactly why I eventually left the doctrine of Sola Scriptura in the dumps where it belongs. Scripture simply cannot explain to you what it means to say in every case; such can require a human agent as with Philip and the Eunuch, such can require the abilities of the Church IOW, that God established and equipped for that purpose. Otherwise, going by Scripture alone, we can end up disagreeing on all kinds of relevant points of the faith, as you probably already do with other Sola Scriptura adherents on this very thread alone! The need for the Church, having a living historical legacy to the beginnings of Christianity, is indispensable.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think the Catholic Church teaches a physical presence. Jesus becomes corporally present, but not in the manner in which a body occupies a place. It it not as though you break a piece of Jesus apart when a consecrated host is broken in half, or that Jesus's body becomes hot and cold when the temperature in the room changes.

That's more or less in agreement with the Lutheran doctrine. We believe Jesus is present physically inasmuch as his body is truly present in the sacrament. But we are not necessarily eating pieces of Jesus. Indeed, we receive the whole person of Christ under either species alone, the same as the Catholic doctrine.

Please use scripture to substantiate your position. And I am digging into honest, and plain to see in my opinion, paradoxes in Catholic doctrine. In your above quote, it says-

" in the last supper, on the night in which He was betrayed,--that He might leave, to His own beloved Spouse the Church, a visible sacrifice, such as the nature of man requires, whereby that bloody sacrifice, once to be accomplished on the cross, might be represented, and the memory thereof remain even unto the end of the world, and its salutary virtue be applied to the remission of those sins which we daily commit,"

This suggest, that communion and receiving communion remits sins.

"its salutary virtue be applied to the remission of those sins"

Believing in Jesus forgives sins. I know Catholics who recieve communion everyday, and are some of the worst and arrogant people on the planet. Also, Priest who were later nailed for being perverts, whom I recieved communion from, who have not admitted wrongdoing, and whose daily sins were and are not remitted just from receiving communion. I do not believe by recieving communion you are forgiven sins or they are remitted. It is just following Jesus' command. Please pray to the spirit to open your eyes, through his word, not mans opinions. Peace

Lutherans also believe the sacrament of the Lord's Supper forgives sins. Because Jesus Christ himself said so, and we are not into calling Christ a deceiver. Indeed, for us Lutherans (and I presume Catholics) part of what it means to have faith in Jesus, to believe in Jesus, is also to believe the things he says are true. It's not primarily a feeling in my heart but more importantly a disposition that looks outward to the promises present in the sacraments he has ordained.

Just because people don't live up to our ideals doesn't negate the grace present in the sacrament. It's ultimately between them and God what they do with that gift.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

YES! It's HUGE! And that's exactly why I eventually left the doctrine of Sola Scriptura in the dumps where it belongs. Scripture simply cannot explain to you what it means to say in every case; such can require a human agent as with Philip and the Eunuch, such can require the abilities of the Church IOW, that God established and equipped for that purpose. Otherwise, going by Scripture alone, we can end up disagreeing on all kinds of relevant points of the faith, as you probably already do with other Sola Scriptura adherents on this very thread alone! The need for the Church, having a living historical legacy to the beginnings of Christianity, is indispensable.

So, you are saying that the Word of Almighty God, is not sufficient , and that we need the "words of humans", which are "equal" to guide us in our lives? This is the greatest delusion that the devil has misled millions into accepting! It is ONLY what God says, that has ANY importance on ANY issue. As Isaiah 55:9 puts it, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." End of any discussion!

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

We have to consider what we're saved from-what it means to be lost. To be lost means to be cut off from the immediate knowledge of and union with God and the grace that His indwelling provides us. Fallen man is born into this lost condition and only God can rectify it, only God can find and save man. We don't know Him, let alone love Him from birth.

Mary was simply granted salvation in her mother's womb, as a favor to her and to the rest of the world. She was thus united with God interiorly in this direct manner and was therefore enabled to refrain from sin, perhaps with greater graces yet due to the nature of her mission. Born a descendant of Adam, this would be impossible without God, her Savior.

A classic example of RC dogma, based on the "fallible" words of fallen, sinful men, and the Infallible Word of Almighty God! It is NO wonder why the RC church strongly rejects "Sola Scriptura", so that they can continue to peddle their damnable heresies, that have NO Biblical justification! You post such utter rubbish, as though it were God's Word! "Mary was simply granted salvation in her mother's womb, as a favor to her and to the rest of the world" RANK HERESY!

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

That is indeed posted by someone who does not know Catholicism / Orthodoxy.

Blessings

for starters, where is the Holy Bible, do you find:

" ... having been associated, as Mother and Minister, with the King of martyrs in the ineffable work of human Redemption, she is always associated, with a practically measureless power, in the distribution of the graces that derive from the Redemption.... And her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion"

" Mother, there may be opened to them, all the treasures of the divine Redemption, and so they may have life, and have it more abundantly. Did not the Lord will that we have everything through Mary?"

"nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother."

(The Church on Mary's Mediation)

These are BLASPHEMIES of the HIGHEST order! That make Mary, a created, sinful human being, like you and I, EQUAL to God the Son, who is Yahweh! Nothing short of "teachings of demons"!

 

[fhansen]

So, you are saying that the Word of Almighty God, is not sufficient , and that we need the "words of humans", which are "equal" to guide us in our lives? This is the greatest delusion that the devil has misled millions into accepting! It is ONLY what God says, that has ANY importance on ANY issue. As Isaiah 55:9 puts it, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." End of any discussion!

Priggish self-serving nonsense. You're barely listening to God or reason. With any understanding at all you'd realize that I did nothing to denigrate the Word of God, but everything to denigrate the doctrine of Sola Scriptura which only serves to make YOUR private interpretation the definitive infallible understanding of His revelation.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Priggish self-serving nonsense. You're barely listening to God or reason. With any understanding at all you'd realize that I did nothing to denigrate the Word of God, but everything to denigrate the doctrine of Sola Scriptura which only serves to make YOUR private interpretation the definitive infallible understanding of His revelation.

I has answered another place, to show the blasphemies that are taught by the RC church, which are NOT from the Holy Bible, and yet there are those who still follow these LIES!

 

[fhansen]

A classic example of RC dogma, based on the "fallible" words of fallen, sinful men, and the Infallible Word of Almighty God! It is NO wonder why the RC church strongly rejects "Sola Scriptura", so that they can continue to peddle their damnable heresies, that have NO Biblical justification! You post such utter rubbish, as though it were God's Word! "Mary was simply granted salvation in her mother's womb, as a favor to her and to the rest of the world" RANK HERESY!

Thank you for your infallible personal opinion pope TheBibleIsTruth. But maybe someday you'll better understand the truth of the Bible.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Thank you for your infallible personal opinion pope TheBibleIsTruth. But maybe someday you'll better understand the truth of the Bible.

It is very sad indeed, that I have clearly shown teaching from the "church" that you proudly belong to, that are so against what the Holy Bible teaches, that they are blasphemous, and yet all you can do is come back with some rather foolish comments? Are you first and foremost a Bible-believing Christian, or a Roman Catholic, who cares less what God says in His Word, and more for church "dogma", which might or might not be Biblically correct? If the latter, than you guys are no better than the likes of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc, etc. May the Lord indeed have mercy!

 

[fhansen]

It is very sad indeed, that I have clearly shown teaching from the "church" that you proudly belong to, that are so against what the Holy Bible teaches, that they are blasphemous, and yet all you can do is come back with some rather foolish comments? Are you first and foremost a Bible-believing Christian, or a Roman Catholic, who cares less what God says in His Word, and more for church "dogma", which might or might not be Biblically correct? If the latter, than you guys are no better than the likes of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc, etc. May the Lord indeed have mercy!

With all due respect, and I apologize if I've been a bit caustic, JWs are a direct offspring of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. As a Catholic, not every teaching needs to be recorded in the bible; that is not its purpose; it was never intended to be a catechism, but no teaching can contradict the bible either. And there are many contradicting beliefs within Christianity that are argued plausibly either way using Scripture alone.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

With all due respect, and I apologize if I've been a bit caustic, JWs are a direct offspring of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. As a Catholic, not every teaching needs to be recorded in the bible; that is not its purpose; it was never intended to be a catechism, but no teaching can contradict the bible either. And there are many contradicting beliefs within Christianity that are argued plausibly either way using Scripture alone.

Show me where in the Holy Bible, that Mary is exalted to the same level as Jesus Christ? Where does it speak of her having any "kingdom"? Where does it say that she is some "way" to get to heaven? Where does it say that she is "co-redeemer" with Jesus Christ? If you can, I will listen, if you can't, then they are contradictions to what the Bible says, and can only be rejected as heresy! These are not light-weight teachings, but fundamental.

 

[fhansen]

Show me where in the Holy Bible, that Mary is exalted to the same level as Jesus Christ? Where does it speak of her having any "kingdom"? Where does it say that she is some "way" to get to heaven? Where does it say that she is "co-redeemer" with Jesus Christ? If you can, I will listen, if you can't, then they are contradictions to what the Bible says, and can only be rejected as heresy! These are not light-weight teachings, but fundamental.

Neither the Catholic Church or the Bible exalts Mary to the status of Jesus, which is why it's forbidden to worship her. She has a role to play, however, which the Church has recognized since the beginning. This is why the Church does venerate her in a way that's lost on most modern Protestants, while echoed by the early fathers.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Neither the Catholic Church or the Bible exalts Mary to the status of Jesus, which is why it's forbidden to worship her. She has a role to play, however, which the Church has recognized since the beginning. This is why the Church does venerate her in a way that's lost on most modern Protestants, while echoed by the early fathers.

and where exactly is this "role" of Mary in the Bible? She, like all the others who have died in Jesus Christ, is dead, and in heaven, but cannot communicate with any living person. She is NOT "omnipresent", which belongs ONLY to God! Lets have some Scriptures, please

 

[fhansen]

and where exactly is this "role" of Mary in the Bible? She, like all the others who have died in Jesus Christ, is dead, and in heaven, but cannot communicate with any living person. She is NOT "omnipresent", which belongs ONLY to God! Lets have some Scriptures, please

And where, exactly, did you get the notion that all elements of the faith must be explicitly spelled out in the bible? Is that just some sort of wild speculation on your part? And do you get your knowledge of the lives of the residents of heaven from the same place?