Universal Salvation - Did you know that this is at the core of the Gospel?

[SkyWriting]

Good illustration as they are appealing to men and not unto God.
They cannot get an audience with God or with Godly men, women and children,
so they try to appeal to the ungodly with ungodly doctrines that tickle someone's ears.
Is that what you mean ?

Perhaps that is the case. Poor conclusions are not automatically ungodly.

 

[Hewillcome2040]

I covered those topics. Universal Salvation - Did you know that this is at the core of the Gospel?

So why do you believe God fails to save everyone?

 

[Hewillcome2040]

So God is the Author of evil? Interesting. That would make Him an evil God which is flatly denied in the Bible:

The word evil in that verse is the same word used to describe the Evil on the Tree for which Adam and Eve sinned by.

Are you saying God will take a man and harden him contrary to his inclination? Are you saying God forces people to wicked deeds? If so, how is God, then, not an evil God?

No, I'm saying that God can take a man and harden him along with his inclination just as He says He did to Pharoh.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Perhaps that is the case. Poor conclusions are not automatically ungodly.

Perhaps, but it is not conclusions , but false teachings (anti-Gospel teachings), that is inundating the whole world and the internet.
False teachings come from bad trees, always ungodly, and they suffer much more severe judgments (whether eternal death or other, YHWH knows) than the ones not teaching falsely.

IF ever a Christian falls for a false teaching, when they are corrected, they repent and turn back to YHWH to be healed of it.
If they don't accept YHWH'S Way, they are not healed (not saved), or are subject to whatever YHWH decides/has decided/.

 

[Hewillcome2040]

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Deadworm]

Jeff and other critics on this thread have ducked the implication in the Philippian that every human, living or dead, has a chance ultimately to be saved. But the same implication can be inferred in the hymn in Revelation 5:13: "Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth...singing: "To the One seated on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever."

It is the ultimate absurdity to imagine that the unrighteous dead envisaged here and in Philippians 2:6-11 worship Jesus and acknowledge Him as their Lord only to have some angel pull a lever so that they can be sucked down again into the lake of fire.

Several texts in Revelation support this inference. For example, the gates of the New Jerusalem are permanently open (21:15). Open to whom? Who does John have in mind as waiting outside? The answer is the evil dead (22:15)! Though damned they always have the chance to meet God's conditions and enter the gates of Heaven.

 

[Acts2:38]

(3) So far the anti-universalists on this thread don't know Greek or Hebrew and therefore don't realize that the Hebrew "olam" means "for an indefinitely long time," but is usually mistranslated "eternal" and the Greek "aionios" means "age-long." Thus in intertestamental Jewish literature, the question is asked about what happens after the aionios period ends.

Also, our anti-universalists continually duck the OP's 10 Bible-based questions. btw, I know neither Hewillcome or Clement. I just want posters to shed their ideological shackles and allow an honest and truth-seeking discussion of the relevant texts. So let's get into the Word!

The first two points you've mentioned were never in Hewillcomes's discussion between us, so I will disregard those two points. However, by your third point, you have automatically included me. This is in assumption that you indeed have included me and have follow my discussion with the OPer's discussion with me personally.

I type to you to clarify some things to you and get your facts more straight and on track in regards to my personal discussion with the OPer.

I never got in any discussion thus far that required Hebrew text (OT), but I did get into Greek with Hewillcome. So, with that in light know this, I did not get the Greek definition of "aionios" wrong. I gave the OPer the textbook definition, which never mentioned anything of "age-long". In fact, I will post up the definition to you:

αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; (G166, from G165); perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

The context of the word could mean one of three things only pending on the way the sentence is laid out
1- without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2- without beginning
3- without end, never to cease, everlasting

I did not get this wrong as it is pull from textbook for thousands upon thousands of different scholars from different denominations who agree upon this and studied the Koine Greek. And guess what.....

Nowhere do I see "age-long" or "could end eventually". I don't that and deep down you see that your thought on this is wrong. Its just your pride getting in the way refusing to wish to be wrong.

2 Thessalonians 1:9, the same word everlasting is the same word used in Hebrew 9:12 and 9:15, the same as 2 Peter 1:11, the same word as 2 Timothy 2:10, the same as Matthew 25:46 (both times mentioned).

I'm really sorry to burst your bubble like that but it is you that got the Greek words wrong.

As far as ignoring Hewillcomes OP "10 questions", I did not ignore them. I simply answered all of them with one shot and put forth a question of my own at start of my discussion with him. You are wrong again on this account with me in particular.

So before you lump everyone into one category, get the facts first.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

3 For this is good and acceptable before Elohim our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of truth1.


Yet, being Perfect and Righteous, He cannot allow unregenerate sinners into heaven, ever.

He desired they would turn to Him to be saved, and provided for salvation,
and they rejected Him.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

the implication in the Philippian that every human, living or dead, has a chance ultimately to be saved.

We are not deceived by the thoughts of man (so-called 'implications').

The flesh is at war with the spirit, every day, and the "implications" are of the flesh, opposed to YHWH every day.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Though damned they always have the chance to meet God's conditions and enter the gates of Heaven.

They have NO WAY to meet God's conditions,
according to GOD. (HIS WORD).

As there is NO MORE any sacrifice for their sin, thus no more redemption possible, NO ATONEMENT possible for them. (AS GOD SAYS IN HIS WORD)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Several texts in Revelation support this inference. For example, the gates of the New Jerusalem are permanently open (21:15). Open to whom? Who does John have in mind as waiting outside?

The unrighteous are never allowed to enter, and they have no way, no atonement, no redemption by which to ever be made righteous after they died.
AS GOD'S WORD SAYS.

You do not want to be outside those gates , unregenerate, because then you will never be able to enter in.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If anyone who was deceived by the universal false doctrines,
and if they are permitted to remember WHY they were deceived, or by WHOM,
perhaps then (before they die),
they can turn to YHWH for the TRUTH in HIS SON JESUS, to be SAVED from all error (not just for eternal life),
and be healed of all the corruption of false doctrines.

The origin of the false teachings IS NOT IN CHRIST JESUS. So if the ORIGIN gets exposed,
perhaps they might be SET FREE BY TRUTH in JESUS, if they come to Him to be healed (BEFORE THEY DIE).

 

[OzSpen]

Here is PROOF from your Bible of Universalism:

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Notice, that EVERY Tongue - no matter where it is - Under Earth, In Earth, In Heaven, etc... (Universalism).

Now how can one confess that Jesus is Lord? - only by having the Holy Spirit:

1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Hewillcome,

It's amazing what you can teach when you cherry pick verses as you have done here, taken them out of context, and tried to prove an heretical doctrine - universalism.

That is not what Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount. He was clear in his contradicting what you teach here:

22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord! Lord! Didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we drive out demons in your name? Didn’t we do many miracles in your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them clearly, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who do evil!’ (Matt 7:22-23 NIRV)​

'Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord' does NOT mean in context, 'Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord and so salvation is declared for all people of the world'.

See also: Is universalism / universal salvation biblical?

Oz

​

 

[Acts2:38]

Hello and thank you for your continued discussion with me.

So back to aionios, it means age-enduring. It doesn't reference an end point but a point at which something continues with respect to the age. So to say something is aionios means it continues beyond the age. In the Old Testament it uses the word olam for this which means horizon where the end of the horizon is concealed but we can see the point at which the continuation is.

Unfortunately "age" enduring is not in the definition I gave you from all those who did study the Greek. So no, you cannot use "age" enduring. That would be a wrong assumption. However, you can use "unending", "forever and ever", "eternity", and "never ceasing", but you cannot use "age" enduring. It's not in the context and its not the word definition.

Now you statement about why would the rich man have a gulf between them and that would be the fact that the risen Lazarus and Abraham are immortal and the rich man is not. That is the gulf. You see that I posted part of the parable of the unforgiving servant earlier. Those that do not repent now will have to PAY for their sins later TILL all is paid. Not forever.

Please give me some scripture that states the rich man is not immortal. I simply cannot take your word for it so please offer some supporting verses that state your claim.

Also, the gulf is simply a space that cannot be crossed over. It has absolutely NO indication or relevance to the rich man not being immortal. Again, offer a supporting verse that states this claim as well.

Lastly, I just went over the word everlasting to you. Maybe I can help you understand Matthew 25:46.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting(aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal(aionios).

Both words in verse 36, everlasting and eternal, are the same word aionios.

If you were correct, and it is only "age" enduring, then the righteous will not receive life for eternity, forever, never ceasing.

Are you prepared to make that claim as well?

 

[Hewillcome2040]

The first two points you've mentioned were never in Hewillcomes's discussion between us, so I will disregard those two points. However, by your third point, you have automatically included me. This is in assumption that you indeed have included me and have follow my discussion with the OPer's discussion with me personally.

I type to you to clarify some things to you and get your facts more straight and on track in regards to my personal discussion with the OPer.

I never got in any discussion thus far that required Hebrew text (OT), but I did get into Greek with Hewillcome. So, with that in light know this, I did not get the Greek definition of "aionios" wrong. I gave the OPer the textbook definition, which never mentioned anything of "age-long". In fact, I will post up the definition to you:

αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; (G166, from G165); perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

The context of the word could mean one of three things only pending on the way the sentence is laid out
1- without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2- without beginning
3- without end, never to cease, everlasting

I did not get this wrong as it is pull from textbook for thousands upon thousands of different scholars from different denominations who agree upon this and studied the Koine Greek. And guess what.....

Nowhere do I see "age-long" or "could end eventually". I don't that and deep down you see that your thought on this is wrong. Its just your pride getting in the way refusing to wish to be wrong.

2 Thessalonians 1:9, the same word everlasting is the same word used in Hebrew 9:12 and 9:15, the same as 2 Peter 1:11, the same word as 2 Timothy 2:10, the same as Matthew 25:46 (both times mentioned).

I'm really sorry to burst your bubble like that but it is you that got the Greek words wrong.

As far as ignoring Hewillcomes OP "10 questions", I did not ignore them. I simply answered all of them with one shot and put forth a question of my own at start of my discussion with him. You are wrong again on this account with me in particular.

So before you lump everyone into one category, get the facts first.

I believe in the definition of aionios more as the Greek Linguist Lenep wrote and Rev Goodwin comments on here:

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

Rev. E. S. Goodwin, says:(3) "It would signify a multitude of periods or times united to each other, duration indefinitely continued. Its proper force, in reference to duration, seems to be more that of uninterrupted duration than otherwise; a term of which the duration is continuous as long as it lasts, but which may be completed and finished, as age, dispensation, sæculum, in a general sense.

So my understanding for understanding the word usage in scripture is that it refers to a duration that last beyond the age boundary but doesn't speak to the end point - only the continuing point.

 

[Hewillcome2040]

Hello and thank you for your continued discussion with me.



Unfortunately "age" enduring is not in the definition I gave you from all those who did study the Greek. So no, you cannot use "age" enduring. That would be a wrong assumption. However, you can use "unending", "forever and ever", "eternity", and "never ceasing", but you cannot use "age" enduring. It's not in the context and its not the word definition.



Please give me some scripture that states the rich man is not immortal. I simply cannot take your word for it so please offer some supporting verses that state your claim.

Also, the gulf is simply a space that cannot be crossed over. It has absolutely NO indication or relevance to the rich man not being immortal. Again, offer a supporting verse that states this claim as well.

Lastly, I just went over the word everlasting to you. Maybe I can help you understand Matthew 25:46.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting(aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal(aionios).

Both words in verse 36, everlasting and eternal, are the same word aionios.

If you were correct, and it is only "age" enduring, then the righteous will not receive life for eternity, forever, never ceasing.

Are you prepared to make that claim as well?

Immortality is a gift of the Spirit:

Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1Ti_6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

 

[Acts2:38]

I believe in the definition of aionios more as the Greek Linguist Lenep wrote and Rev Goodwin comments on here:

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

Rev. E. S. Goodwin, says:(3) "It would signify a multitude of periods or times united to each other, duration indefinitely continued. Its proper force, in reference to duration, seems to be more that of uninterrupted duration than otherwise; a term of which the duration is continuous as long as it lasts, but which may be completed and finished, as age, dispensation, sæculum, in a general sense.

So my understanding for understanding the word usage in scripture is that it refers to a duration that last beyond the age boundary but doesn't speak to the end point - only the continuing point.

One problem friend, Aión is not the word used in Matthew 25:46. Aionios is.

 

[Acts2:38]

Immortality is a gift of the Spirit:

Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1Ti_6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

You didn't answer the question. You are now deflecting. Answer the question.

Both words used, use the same Greek word Aionios. They do not use Aion. They use Aionios. Now apply the proper definition please.

Are you prepared to make that claim?

The claim being that in Matthew 25:46, the righteous eternal life has only an "age" attached to it and it will end?

 

[Hewillcome2040]

Immortality is a gift of the Spirit:

Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1Ti_6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

One problem friend, Aión is not the word used in Matthew 25:46. Aionios is.

I didn't say aion was the word used.

 

[Hewillcome2040]

You didn't answer the question. You are now deflecting. Answer the question.

Both words used, use the same Greek word Aionios. They do not use Aion. They use Aionios. Now apply the proper definition please.

Are you prepared to make that claim?

The claim being that in Matthew 25:46, the righteous eternal life has only an "age" attached to it and it will end?

You want me to explain Matthew 25:46:

And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life

Both words "eternal" in that verse are derived from the greek word "aionios". The word as I mentioned before doesn't speak to an end point but to a continuing point. Therefore, you could rewrite it as:

And these shall go away into age-enduring punishment: but the righteous into age-enduring life.